Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Anyone else feel like the panther wildshape desperately needs changes?

I love wildshapes, I do. But there are many issues with them. I could go on all day about how they basically nullify 99% of this games progression systems (illithid powers, multiclass features, gear), but today I just want to talk about the Panther. Owl bear and panther are obtained at the same level, meanwhile panther has zero bonus actions, 15 dex (so just +2 to its attack rolls vs the owlbears +5 from 20 strength), its prowl has been bugged since release and hasn't worked properly, its pounce is a saving throw and a full action that does not trigger wild strikes so you cannot even follow it up with a jugular strike even in the off chance that you somehow do successfully prone something, and my personal gripe that even this dex using panther cannot utilize rogue sneak attacks.

In DnD, panther has 15 dex, yes, but it still has a +4 to attack rolls with its bite and claw. Increasing the panther's dexterity in BG3 to 18 would be a fine choice in BG3 since it is obtained alongside the Owlbear which is a much much stronger form. Its made even worse in BG3 since Tavern Brawler has been made the de facto choice for feats for wildshaping, which boosts owlbears +5 to attack rolls up to +10, meanwhile panthers 15 dex and 14 strength makes this +4 altogether. Wow. Why is panther obtained at the same level as owlbear again?

In DnD, its pounce allows the player to use a bonus action to attack. Granted they dont have jugular strike in DnD, but I don't quite understand why Larian would even include Jugular Strike if panther wildshapes can't even prone + attack in the same turn anyways. It forces you to rely on party members to prone enemies, which feels out of character for a panther that would ideally be stalking the back line ranged/casters rather than running straight into the middle of combat. Pounce should be a bonus action to fall in line with owlbears AOE prone in crushing flight, dilophosaurs pounce, or even sabertooths prone via basic attack. Also, since it uses your spell save DC but you have no way to boost your spell save DC (except by +3 via battlemage elixir) at all while wildshaped since your gear has no effect on you, it's likely to fail every time anyways. So why not just let it be a bonus action?

Panthers prowl at level 6 is concentration and applies invisibility and +1d8 damage to your next attack. Panther prowl at level 8 and onwards loses the bonus damage entirely and always has since release. Coupled with wild shapes being incapable of using most illithid powers, specifically Luck of the Far Realms (which is the one a panther would probably want to use the most), this is a pretty big loss IMO. Would really love this fix. I reported it like 5 times many months ago and would really enjoy seeing it fixed.

All of the above feel like they need to happen in order to make panther at least mildly decent at existing in any combat scenario. But I would also like to mention that a sneaky panther (or spider as it also uses dexterity to attack) should be capable of sneak attacks via rogue multiclass.It's kinda weird that they can't, to be honest. But I digress. This one is not a requirement but I am a big fan of the 7 Moon druid/5 Assassin Rogue playstyle and would just enjoy a bit more benefit from investing so many levels into rogue and giving up my third attack. As it is now, you only benefit during the first round of combat if, and only if, you surprise the enemy. For the remainder of combat you are essentially nothing more than a level 7 druid.

In general, I'm fine with Panther Wildshape. It does what it does well enough, which is on demand perma-invis to guarantee surprise rounds.

Though, it getting buffs (Along with other lacking Wildshapes like Badger and Spider) wouldn't be unwelcome.

For a start, having illithid powers work while wildshapes would make sense. Since you don't wildshape away your brain. As evidenced by the fact you don't become a literal wild animal and you retain your cognitive functions as if you were in your original form (You simply lack the necessary vocal arrangement to speak) probably using some "Bag of Holding" style magic to fit your regular brain inside things like a mouse skull. Also, hence keeping Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma scores. So as a result, your illithid transformation should still remain during wildshapes.

Having abilities become bonus actions (Badgers Burrow, Wolf's Inciting Howl, Bear's Goading Roar and Panther's Pounce) could help though it could also be a detriment for Moon Druids who used their bonus action Wildshaping in the first place (Though, the simplest solution to this would be to allow Moon Druids to use either a standard or bonus action to Wildshape. Much like how Rogues have the option to use a standard action using normal Dash/Disengage/Hide abilities or a bonus action via their Cunning Actions)

Also, would be interesting if Bear got a Charge ability (Similar to the Charger: Weapon Attack feat ability) given it's the ONLY combat Wildshape that lacks a mobility skill.

A personal request would be access to Shove while Wildshaped. Like, yes I don't have humanoid hands to grab things so no improvised weapons or throwing... But I should still be able to shoulder slam things as an animal to push them...


You can use Strength Elixirs you know. Boost your Panther up to 21 or 27 Str and get +5 or +8 (+10 or +16 with Tavern Brawler) to attack rolls.

Though having the innate attack roll bonus would be nice so its base stats function better.


Pretty sure it uses best of Str/Dex not spell DC. Meaning you can improve it by again, popping Strength Elixirs.

My issue with this is that you're relegating panther to just that role, which is severely simplifying panther. That role can be filled by just drinking an invis potion, any of the several classes with the invisibility spell, shovel, an invisibility scroll, or an item that allows it. I don't agree with that being the panthers primary role.



I agree with other forms as well, I have a whole laundry list of minor changes I'd make to other forms. Badger burrow as a bonus action and make it a spell save DC instead of a flat 13 dex save (think I've seen it work like 3 times in my 900 hours.) Bonus action goading roar ofcourse, but I've also been toying with the idea of a bonus action 1d8+strength bite attack as a bonus action to go along with it. Bear forms damage is abysmal, imo. 2d4+4 at base, bleh. It could use something a bit more impactful since it's a moon exclusive. Personally I find the dire wolf to both outlast and outdamage the bear by a landslide. It's better AC more than makes up for the slightly lower health. The health difference between wolf and bear is not very big throughout the whole game, not even at 12.

Speaking of wolf, it could definitely go for a bonus action inciting howl, as you mentioned. Wolf is my go to wildshape pre-6 because it feels like the only good one. Spider isn't terrible as a support role, spamming web every turn. But it's damage is ofcourse lacking. If rogue sneak attack worked for dexterity using wildshapes, you could make a great spider build with the mobile feat tacked on. Deep rothe on the other hand has abysmal scaling and it makes me sad.

I most certainly would like the option to choose between using an action or bonus action when wildshaping. There's a lot of times I'm jealous of land druids because there's many combos that work much better for them.


Panther uses dexterity for its attacks, not strength. Tavern brawler does work, but it just adds strength to your rolls once ontop of your dexterity rolls. The base panther strength is 14, so tavern brawler makes your attack rolls a +4 at base. +7 with hill giants strength, and +10 with cloud giants strength. These aren't bad, but that necessitates a specific elixir and feat to make panther on par with owlbear (which is learned at the same level) with just tavern brawler where attack rolls are concerned.



It uses your spell save DC. Wisdom. Which is fine, I guess. Would just prefer pounce to be a bonus action, or at the very least, trigger wild strikes.

Except other means of invisibility require spell slots, limited consumables AND also all have durations.

The only other ways to fulfil the same role is with Quasit/Imp familiars.

In regards to its primary role... It's generally the way things are with all the forms. Like, Bear's primary role is to Taunt stuff away from the party (Since Owlbear can also be big and beefy). And uhh... Oh right, Badger/Spider/Wolf don't even have a primary role other than "You're a Druid below level 6"...

I mean, that's the general point behind having access to many forms though, rather than having like 100 "Jack-of-all-trades" forms, you instead get 100 niche forms that do a specific task well (It's just that really, Owlbear and Saber-tooth are Jack-of-all-trades forms being both pretty tanky AND having good damage making them the de-facto combat forms outside of eventually using Myrmidons)

Of course, extending forms more niche roles would be nice (For example, instead of Panther being just about forcing Surprises a bunch, it functions more like Gloomstalker and provides an extra benefit from doing so)

Though, such things are more directed towards WotC and its source material (Unless Larian wants to homebrew yet more stuff...) to which I have many ideas about many things, all of which are pointless to express because WotC lol.

Panther requires a wild shape charge. But prowl is bugged. It is not meant to be infinitely usable. It functions differently at levels 6/7 than it does from 8 onwards. If we look at the level 6/7 version, which is the correct version, it is only to be used once per short rest (though this is also bugged and you can easily circumvent this).

All warlocks, wizards, sorcerers (draconic ancestry only) or any character of the dragonborn race can learn to permanently summon shovel as a class action. And you keep it no matter what, even if you respecced away from one of those classes. It's free and costs nothing at all, aside from the respec I guess.

You're over-simplifying panthers role. While it can start combat with invisibility for a surprise round, that is hardly the entirety of its role. And comparing it to bear is just not a good argument. Bear is probably the worse form in the entire game, if you don't count critters/badger. Goading roar doesn't actually "taunt" anything. It just applies disadvantage on attack rolls against your allies to effected enemies. To be honest, considering you have 12 AC and your party probably has considerably higher, it has less effect than you think since everything is already much much more likely to hit you over an ally anyways.

Except... It is.

That's the literal only thing the form has over any other form. The invisibility.

Literally, it has 4 abilities. 1 is the regular attack that all (Non-cat/birb) forms have. 1 is a mobility action that all (Non-bear) forms have (And several of them also apply prone, to varying degrees of success). 1 is a conditional attack dealing bonus damage that some forms have their own variant on (The wolf has the "Make an ally crit" thing for example). 1 is the invisibility.

The only unique thing in the form, is the invisibility. But given that invisibility is mostly useful for its ease of creating surprise rounds (Or simply sneaking past hostile enemies but this feature is nigh useless in BG3 not only because of the party, but because you want to kill everything for exp), that's the niche that the form fills. You use this form when you want that specific thing (Especially since you get it at the same time as Owlbear so it's not like Wolf where you only use it because you don't have anything better)


It's a perfectly fine argument.

Bear has a unique skill. Goading Roar. If you have access to multiple forms, that would be the only reason to utilize the form.

The fact that Bear sucks with it's paltry AC, lack of mobility skill and overall mediocre effect of the unique ability doesn't change the fact that when you have a plethora of forms, the reason to use Bear is its unique skill. Just like with all the forms available, the reason to use Panther is its unique invisibility. Or the reason to use Spider is to use its unique ability in Web.

That's simply the general way that having multiple forms is normally implemented in games (TT or video). The idea is normally you swap forms to suit the situation and leverage what they provide. Rather than the singular form restrictions where there's more pressure put on to make all options be multi-faceted.

While I'm not opposed to the idea of single form restricted Druid, so each form you can pick is more well rounded but provides its own take on things. Though that would be more of a subclass type change rather than a simple homebrew to Druids overall.

Except that isn't the entire truth. I'd agree with you if all of the forms had the same stats and damage and the only unique thing about panther was its prowl, but that isn't the case. Panther also has the highest base damage (3d6) basic attack of any non-elemental myrmidon. But the reason panther sucks is its low dexterity. Other forms also surpass this damage thanks to strength elixirs, but it wouldn't really be a big issue if panther had reasonable dexterity.

Panther is really getting the short end of the stick in this game with nigh-infinite strength elixirs and the singular focus on tavern brawler. Which is why it could use some love.

Base damage is not the whole story. You also need to factor in the bonus damage that forms get from scaling (At least the level 4 bonus given that Panther requires level 6)

Panther is 3d6 with 1d4, 1d6 and 1d8 bonus meaning it's doing on average 9, 11, 12 and 13 damage.
Owlbear is 2d8 with 1d4, 1d6 and 1d8 bonus meaning it's doing on average 8, 10, 11 and 12 damage.
Wolf/Saber-Tooth is 2d6 wiith 1d6, 1d8 and 1d10 bonus meaning they're doing on average 6, 9, 10 and 11 damage.
Dilophosaurus does 1d10 + 1d8 with 1d6, 1d8 and 1d10 bonus meaning it's doing on average 9, 12, 13 and 14 damage.

Putting Panther only second in terms of damage for non-myrmidon and only 1-2 points higher on average than other forms. Which is not reason to bring the form itself, as it's not like it's a damage machine just because it essentially has a single die up (The same reason why not everyone is running around with greatswords and mauls all the time because of their 2d6 die is larger than any other weapon type besides greataxes 1d12. There's more to damage than simply base dice)

Heck, I'd argue that Wolf would out damage Panther even with its damage defecit, simply because it has Pack Tactics to gain advantage for better attack rolls. While Owlbear can at least match Panther due to getting its 1 damage defecit back from the Str bonus from Enrage.

Panther utilizing Dex instead of Str is only the nail in the coffin for the usefulness of its damage.

This overall means that Panther isn't really a damage machine, outside maybe it's (Bugged) 1d8 bonus from Prowl (Which further highlights its role as a surprise machine, giving you that bonus damage, albeit quite small compared to an Assassin or Gloomstalker)

I mean, you keep arguing with me but you're just proving my point. I agree with you that panther isn't good at damage. Even wolf is better than it. But the reason for that is because panther is a dex attacker and only has +2 to its rolls. Wolf uses strength and has +3 and is obtained 4 levels earlier.

You can drink a cloud giant elixir and panther would still have +2 while wolf would have +8. It's a bit ridiculous. Wolf's pack tactics isn't even needed for it to be better than panther.

What I really disagree with you on is that you think panther is fine because it can turn invisible. It is my opinion that if I use my valuable wildshape charges to turn into a panther, it should also be viable in combat on its own. Owlbear is incredibly powerful on its own, especially for the level its learned. Why is it okay for panther, which is learned at that same level, to be worse than a level 2 form like wolf?

The Panther is Jaheira's default form, so it only makes sense that it should be more badass, but alas, it's not really. I don't know that anything would happen for this one now, absent some sort of "Better Big Cats" mod I guess?

I've always preferred a spellcasting/summoning style Druid to a wild shaping Druid, so I'd trade all these forms for the spell "Conjure Animals" to exist in BG3 hehe.

Also it's frustrating that they made the Owlbear so absurdly powerful relative to the other forms. Having one beak that's a cut above the rest makes the other wild shapes just feel sorta pointless. If they're just flavor forms, then they could have given us more customization options at least - like the simple ability to choose our panther's fur colors.

I'd have preferred a Wild Shape called "Panthera" to include Lions, Tigers, Jaguars, and Leopards. Then some assorted riffs on that. Perhaps Cheetahs could have been there own special Acinonyx version, alongside other candidates, like the prehistoric Saber-Tooths and such, but importantly where we get to pick our own spots, and our own fangs.

A lot of mileage could be gained from simple things like choosing the color of our coat. I mean if ever there was a place for a Pink Panther, like come on right! heheh

I agree, it felt like they put in extra effort on the owlbear so that they could be like "Well we have owlbear."

I wasn't sure I could learn how to mod as I am not computer literate, but the toolkit has been quite good in my opinion and I was able to release a mod I made that aims to buff some of the weaker forms.

For panther specifically, I increased its dex to 19, made its pounce cost a bonus action, and made prowl deal its 1d8 bonus damage at every level rather than just 6 and 7 (that bugs driven me nuts all year).

Feels a lot better now, but I also buffed bear, badger, and rothe. Now I'm creating new wild shapes, and have hyena and giant eagle about done and looking good. Hyena specifically is my pride and joy. I put in so much work on it to give it unique skills and it's own unique playstyle.