Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Why did Larian change Ascended Astarion's kisses from what they were? I don't want to disrespect those who like Ascended Astarion's new kisses, but I don't think Larian's original artistic intention was for Ascended Astarion to be a good ending for him. Instead, it was supposed to be an example of how he's repeating the cycle of abuse Cazador started. In the Spawn ending, Astarion treats you like an equal, but in his Ascended ending, he treats you like a subordinate. He breaks up with you if you don't want to become a spawn, which I think if he truly cared for you, he wouldn't do. He literally thinks you're degrading yourself by staying with him as an Ascendant. At the epilogue party, Ascended Astarion says things like this:


and this:


These are clearly signs of Ascended Astarion trying to isolate the player, which is a sign of emotional abuse. He's belittling the player for wanting a little more freedom, because in his mind he's given them everything else, so the player shouldn't be asking for more. He's refusing to interact with any of the other party members, so that if anything worsens between Tav/Durge and the other party members, he can blame them (the party) instead of himself. He's saying that if any of the other party members are unhappy with his arrangement with his consort, well, then that's their fault, and he'll be here for the player because no one else will. He's not watching the player because he's worried the player's going to hurt themselves or because he prefers to see the player indulge instead of partaking himself; he's watching the player because he doesn't want them saying anything that goes against his narrative that he and the player are happy together. The "always be watching" is an additional threat on top of that; no matter where the player goes, Astarion is always going to be watching out for them in case they say something wrong.

Ascended Astarion's original kisses were good because it shows the player how big of a mistake they made (if they ignored the several massive red flags along the way). Ascended Astarion is not gentle, despite claiming he is on the surface level (like asking for the player's opinion if they wanted to be turned gently or roughly). He sees the player as nothing more than a toy that he can use at his will. Him forcing the player onto their knees and grabbing them by the throat was an excellent choice in my opinion, because it shows how far gone he is and how trapped the player is. It's also very frustrating that players who want to see their Tav happy with the relationship had a mod available; it would've been a great way for Larian to show off installing third party mods by using this mod as an example.

There's also plenty of other Astarion fans who either agree with this reading of Astarion or are frustrated with Larian changing this specifically when there are plenty of other things that they should've changed before doing this: Wyll and Minthara, the companions' reactivity to Withers resurrecting Durge after Bhaal kills them, etc.

I think a good compromise would've been adjusting the reactivity based on how the player chose to be turned. If they wanted the rough option, they would've received the new kisses. If they wanted the gentle option, they would've received the old kisses.

I personally don’t understand why some feel there need to be multiple sets of facial expressions for kisses that were added as fan service during the Valentine’s Day patch. None of the other companions receive this level of treatment. I’d rather them do something with the Act 3 approvals to try to better reflect characters on their different arcs (good vs evil aligned paths).

The new facial expression are very neutral, and work for either style of playthrough (if you want your character to be into it versus if you want to portray them being unhappy / uncertain in the new dynamic of the relationship). I understand some are uncomfortable with the former interpretation, but it’s someone’s choice how they want to characterize these things in their own playthrough. The previous facial animations only showed fear which can limit roleplay.

Personally, I interpret this path differently than you - which is fine, of course. It’s a roleplaying game. I just want to be able to enjoy my campaigns where I design a character that will romance Ascended Astarion. These neutral facial expression work best overall to respect each players interpretation for their roleplay.

Against.
If I choose the gentle option, it doesn't mean I don't like the rough one. It means I like to choose and longer sensual scene that is written as an intimate with consent where everyone experiences enjoyment.

I suggest we make a choice in kissing
- gently
- roughly
as already realized in the night of turning.
So that the player who chooses instead of Minthra, a man to capture the Baldur's Gate and rule, will not experience a trigger from randomly grabbing their neck in the content that was presented on February 14. I think the choice in the intimate scene was very well made.

This, but I think it should be based on whether you backpedal out of the breakup. The node flags clearly label Astarion as being abusive in that scene, so it makes sense a Tav that is intimidated out of breaking up with him would be afraid in subsequent scenes.

The "You're starting to scare me" option during the post ascension scene would be another strong candidate for introducing the flag, as the player is able to straight up express fear / uncertainty.

I would recommend against the "make it hurt" vs "be gentle" line, because it would be very reasonable for a character with a trauma response to choose "make it hurt" and it otherwise doesn't really have any obvious association with whether or not the player's character feels afraid of him. Also, considering you can technically get these kisses before this scene, it would be better to tie in the option sooner.

I'm not an AA fan because I feel it makes him into a buffoon, but I disagree with the sentiment that "Ascended Astarion's original kisses were good because it shows the player how big of a mistake they made (if they ignored the several massive red flags along the way)." The people playing BG3 are presumably adults, this isn't a YA novel, and I think people should be able to roleplay their characters and choose how they feel about something in a roleplaying game.

So, I think the neutral expressions are the right way to go because players can use their imagination about how their character feels about the kisses. Also, Astarion has gotten soooo much content compared to companions like Wyll, just let him be at this point and focus on other characters.

I agree regarding the good/evil aligned paths (why is Sharran Shadowheart and Ascended Astarion giving the same approval for the same things Selunite Shadowheart and Spawn Astarion are) but I disagree regarding the kisses being neutral. When I saw the gifs in the Larian update post (I think it was pre patch 7), I didn't make a fuss because the animations in the gif were pretty neutral. But I actually played the kisses out in-game and my tiefling Durge didn't have the neutral face - they were actually smiling. I never downloaded the smiling mod, so it was definitely frustrating to see the smiling expression instead of the neutral expression shown in the gif. You're right with the neutral expressions being a good compromise as well, because it's easier to roleplay like that. While I personally would prefer the "frightened" faces (because like I said in my initial post, it fits Larian's story better), the neutral expressions should've been the alternative to satisfy both Spawn Astarion and Ascended Astarion fans. If Larian said one wasn't working (the "frightened" face) then the other extreme shouldn't be okay either (the "smiling" face).

I definitely agree it's frustrating that none of the other companions are picked over this much.


Also a good compromise IMO.


Fair point regarding the "make it hurt" vs "be gentle" line that I hadn't considered; I also hadn't realized that you can kiss Astarion before you actually get his final romance scenes so you're right, it's probably best to have a fail safe in sooner. I definitely agree that the backpedal out of the breakup is probably the best place story wise to flip the facials as well, because it's one of Ascended Astarion's most abusive scenes (the other being the way he screams at you if you compare him to Cazador).


You responded at the same time I did, so I won't repeat what I said above, but the issue for me is not that it's a neutral face (which is fine IMO, it's the right balance so that anyone can project how they feel about their Tav/Durge's feelings) but it is is a smiling face. Like I said above, if the "frightened" one isn't okay, then the full-blown "smiling" shouldn't be either.

I agree regarding Wyll getting shafted; him having 8 hours of content in comparison to Astarion's 12 and Shadowheart's 11 is ridiculous. That being said, Larian thought that swapping Ascended Astarion's face was a priority for this patch and Wyll was once again left on the backburner; I don't see why they can't do a hotfix and offer options for Ascended Astarion, while making Wyll a priority for patch 8.

Oh, i suggest remove all these 3 controversial AA kisses, otherwise these conversations will be eternal. Neither you nor us.
It's just so tiring, to hear again that we don't like these, and we don't like these, turn on the switch, there's too much emphasis on AA kisses. But the game now has enough bugs.
No kisses, no problem.
Let them be the same with spawn, then it's ok?
Of course, i think that the kisses available now are great and they are neutral for roleplaying.
So: either remove them completely or leave them as they are now.
There is no point in describing how we see the relationship between Tav and Astarion, and Astarion himself. This simply leads to pointless arguments, we each have our own vision, and we have the right to it.

The previous similar thread hasn't had time to cool down and you've already created another one? Are you going to clog the forum with the same threads?


All of this can have many interpretations, and yours is not the only correct one.



He literally let Tav come to a party he himself didn't even want to go to and literally tell Tav to go socialize with her friends without rushing anywhere. Isolate??? What?



???


????



These are your personal interpretations, not the truth in the last instance.


Can you confirm this with some dev notes rather than personal interpretations?



Hasn't this been discussed in other threads a million times already? The rest I just can't read, it's just a jumble of biased interpretations passed off as truth.



Tav has no reason to be afraid, because there is not a single moment in the game, or even a hint that Tav is being physically abused or tortured, for such expressions of fear on her face to be justified. Perhaps Larian should have added such things at the time of the game's release so there wouldn't be this controversy now? But they didn't. Instead, in patch 6 they just put us to the fact that Tav is afraid of AA for no good reason. And even you all have to come up with hypotheses to justify that fear. I'm afraid all the horrors of the AA route were left in fanfic and not added to the game, except for those kisses.


Tav is definitely abusive by comparing him to Cazador. I'm not sure, but I think comparing a victim to his abuser is a form of victim blaming.

I don't want my character kissing AA with a face that expresses nothing. It's just unfair considering all the other characters have unambiguously happy reactions to kisses.

None of the developers ever referred to the AA route as the Abuse Cycle. Yes, Spawn spoke of a cycle of terror, but the meaning could be much larger, such as in the cycle of power struggles that empowered vampires are obsessed with.

Welch explicitly said that Tav is an abuser because Tav chose AA because of sexualization. Read the dialogs after the ritual more carefully, much of what Tav has to say sounds abusive. Welch argued that this relationship is based on passion, not fear. So the patch 7 kisses fall more under that narrative, although I disagree with that narrative. We've asked many times to expand the roleplay in this scene because it's very limited.

Locking this thread as it's effectively a duplicate of :
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=949018#Post949018

Edit : Unlocking this thread as it's been helpfully pointed out to me that it's not a duplicate. Feel free to use this as proof that I'm a doofus.

The conversation may continue with the understanding the mod team is wary of Astarion threads turning sour. As a writing exercise going forward, be extra cautious and ask yourselves if a doofus could take your post the wrong way. You never know when I might strike again.

Keep in mind :
- It's everyone's responsibility to keep this a safe and positive community.
- Be respectful towards all forum members.
- Remain constructive and respectful of others' opinions and gameplay styles.
- Remain respectful of game narratives and character preferences.
- Do not mock, torment, or berate individuals for any reason.

Thanks flooter for unlocking the thread!

Well, OP, I've already written my opinion on the matter in another thread: as AA/UA fan, I agree with you and I need an option to choose, because happy faces just really don't suit my RP at all.
When I want happy smiles, I romance UA.
Happy faces during such rough scenes really are triggering for me.
So I write here to support your request.

I also feel really unsettled and disturbed by the new expressions. I was fine with the old ones. When Larian said they were changing the expressions, the picture led me to believe they would change to look more neutral. Which was also fine with me, so I didn't say anything. Now I see that they were changed to be happy, which is just extreme in the opposite direction. :\ The change limits my role play options and makes me extremely uncomfortable now. I was so ready to start another evil play through to explore the new patch but finding this out makes me no longer want to... I almost always romance Astarion and I don't want to stop doing that in my next run. At this rate, I just wish they would let players choose which of the expressions they want somehow. That seems like the best compromise that would hopefully not take too much dev time away from other things.

If you do want to start a new playthrough in the meantime, there is a new mod to restore the original patch 6 kisses on nexus! Not perfect, but at least it’s a stop gap until Larian hopefully adds the flag based expressions! I’ll be using it once the mac update comes out. Since the expressions were already part of the game, the mod doesn’t have the same limitations the last one had.

https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/12013

I just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with OP.

OP I'm afraid I don't feel your arguments are very convincing. There is a lot of personal opinion in there. Personal opinion is not fact.

The first point I'd like to make is this:
The Patch 6 Kisses removed Player Agency. The whole point of a RPG is that the player gets to decide how they want to play. You can be incredibly mean to every companion if you choose. You can even kill them.
With the Patch 6 kisses, agency was removed, because the Player Character appeared frozen with terror after asking for a kiss.


This is opinion, not fact.


I don't see how this line fits in with the argument that A.Astarion is an abuser. The degredation is something he thinks the Player Character is doing to themselves. At no point does A.Astarion say that he intends to degrade his partner.


I think the devs have left this open so you can RP as you wish. If you ask for freedom, A.A.'s a bit miffed at being told the Player Character wishes to be free of him. Most partners would be, lets face it. But note- the Player Character is at the party A.Astarion did not wish to attend, and they are not prevented from going and talking to their friends.
Is he tetchy, yes. Unequivocally abusive, no.



Personally, I thought the first part was rather sweet. As to 'Don't fret, I'll be watching, I'll always be watching.' You can interpret that statement several ways. It's not a threat, unless you want to HC that it is.


Belittling how? There are no put downs, there is no verbal abuse.

I'm not going through the rest of your paragraph because it is all opinion based on statements that can be interpreted in several ways.

N.B I am NOT saying your interpretations are invalid. I am simply saying there are other interpretations of the speeches you have quoted that are equally valid.



Again, removing player agency. What if the player does not think ascension was a mistake?
You personally think ascension is a mistake. Other players do not. The game should accommodate both views.

citation needed.



Please note the last three words in that quote. This is simply your opinion.
For other players who had experienced a SA in real life, it was triggering (prompted flashbacks and panic attacks, not a little mild upset) to see their character terrified of their romanced companion after asking him for a kiss.
I'm sorry, OP. I don't think personal head-cannons should take priority over actual harm to real people.

The A.Astarion dialogue that you have picked also needs to be put into context. Unless the Player Character is deliberately mean to him eg kicking him, comparing him to Cazador etc. they will have a lot of positive interactions. For example:

'You are so beautiful... And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me.'

'You need not fear anything.'

'You will be stronger, swifter, sharper, but you won't be different. You were already perfect before. It's hard to improve.

'I wish we could retreat into our palace already, and spend a decade in each other's arms.'

'We are sovereigns. My sole endeavour now is to make this world yours and mine, alone.'

Now, you are perfectly free to head-cannon all of the above as manipulation if you like, BUT other people will interpret those statements as declarations of love and affection and that is an equally valid interpretation. That's the beauty of an RPG, you can play it how you want. (All of the above are direct quotes from the game).



Since Larian have gone to all the effort of changing the expressions, I think we will just have to accept that on reflection, they feel the new expressions introduced in Patch 7 more accurately reflect their vision for the game.
They are moving onto other projects. I think they have listened to both sides here, and come up with a compromise that should be acceptable to both and which takes into account that console players do not have access to mods.
With a neutral faced Tav, we can role-play as we wish.

Alas, many many players are on console. They do not have access to mods, and the mods you mentioned may not be included when mods do become available on consoles.

However, I would like to point out that you DO have access to a mod that will restore the Patch 6 kisses.

Personally, I am grateful to Larian for putting in the time on the facial expressions (the kisses weren't the only things fixed), and I would much prefer it if they now devoted their efforts to fixing the remaining bugs in the game, rather than revisiting this issue.

+1

There is a lot of supposition, then claiming the writer intended it.

Is there any evidence to back up your view is what the authors intended, OP?

I do not agree Vampire Lord Astarion belittles or sees Tav/Durge as nothing but a toy now. What is your evidence for that within the R! Path?

To be clear I think it's perfectly fine to play that way. But what you're saying OP is interpretation, and personal HC. I dont think it's accurate to say these reads on the character are objectively true, nor that they are what the author intended in the slightest.

I like the new patch 7 faces. They're more in line with the faces we've had pre patch 6. And more equal across the board with other companion kisses. I don't agree with reducing his character to nothing but an abuser and copy/paste Cazadors personality over him.

I don't agree Astarion's story is one of "he either heals and is pure, or becomes an abuser", especially when there are many other themes explored in the game outright that also align with his personal story. Cazador was way way beyond a typical "abusive relationship dynamic". He was a slaver, and a torturer. I don't think people subjected to that form of cruelty means they're automatically going to turn around and start doing that.

I love a villain that is nuanced and has depth. Patch 7 faces restore that for me and many others.

Sereda2, I totally agree with you. This is what I think and feel about Tav and Astarion's relationship. Thank you for writing this.
The improved facial expressions in Patch 7 now bring roleplaying back into the game, whereas Patch 6 took that away from us.

It works in both directions, though.
Now Player Agency is removed for those who don't want to see happy faces during such scenes and RP differently than you.
Everyone has the right to RP just like they want, especially when it's supported by the narrative, like OP said.

Oh, and that the faces now are neutral, is your opinion, not a fact. For others, like me, they aren't neutral at all. They are triggering.