Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 7 Ascended Astarion's kisses goes against his story as written

Ooh, that would've been *fun* >:)

Oh, that's what people are calling the slap? There's a near identical kiss in The Witcher games, where Geralt gets kissed, she leans in to kiss him again, then pushes his face away with a smirk. It's very fun tease/denial! It's all a matter of interpretation. Which is why I don't think it's fair to call OPs opinion canon. But I don't personally think that's a slap by any means.

"You're right to be afraid."



I believe this dialog demonstrates that Astarion does have something to fear:

Player: I promise I'll keep you safe always. You'll never need the powers of an Ascendant.
Astarion: It would be nice not to have to rely on you as my great protector, but... well, I do appreciate the thought.

Doesn't Tav literally say, “You're right to be afraid”?

While Ascended Astarion says that he will protect Tav and that Tav will no longer have to fear anything. He also protects her from the sun and the debilitating vampire hunger by sharing his blood with her. So these are not empty promises.


Neil and Smith explicitly said that AA is Astarion as is. But many anti-AA people still argue that AA has lost itself, its soul, etc So, are the writers' opinions canon or not?

Neil Newbon: With Lord Astarion, we talked a lot about the idea that the cover is now off completely. So that you see him at his most terrible, and it's completely honest and he doesn't have to pretend anymore.

Adam Smith: So with Astarion, his evil ending is actually him...

Rooney and Smith deliberately avoid saying “bad ending”, they say “evil”. Because for people who know RPGs, there's a difference between evil ending and bad ending. Evil characters aren't miserable by default. Only Welch said that. But I can chalk it up to the fact that Welch was only 23 years old at the time and not much experience.

Welch thought the AA ending was “bad” because they attributed specific motivation to the players. They claimed that if you ascend him, you are doing it for the sake of sleeping with him. It's very presumptuous to impose motivation on a player as if they've personally gotten inside everyone's head. There are far better reasons to ascend him, and sex..... is far from the most obvious motivation for players. Honestly, they were just trying to cram an idea they took from their previous game into the game, but tied sexualization to the evil ending on completely empty grounds. Whereas in their previous game the player could gain sexualization points by choosing certain dialogues, thus coming to a “bad ending”, in the case of bg3 it just decided that if the player is evil = doesn't see Astarion as a person just by default. This narrative imposed is extremely mediocre, it's also extremely bad from a roleplaying perspective.

He's literally looking down on you because you are someone in that situation who believes you deserve sex as a reward. He will give it to you, but he won't respect you.

What if I don't play this scenario? What if I don't choose the “I want your body” line? Would the AA ending be “bad” in that case? Not to mention there may not be a bed scene with AA at all. Also, the script for the intimate scene says that AA and Tav look at each other with love: “Player and Astarion standing facing each other. They gaze lovingly at one another.” I.e. it's a normal bed scene between people who love each other.

I always see the reason he treats you so badly as a Vampire Ascendant unfortunately coming from the heart of his own insecurity: 'The fact that they were willing to let me kill all these people… it's by no means a forgivable thing to do. They must be simply so much hoping that I'll be willing to sleep with them if the cause of my trauma is gone, they'd even be willing to commit such an atrocity... At least that's how I interpret him.

What if my character is evil and has been committing mass murders the whole game? Like killing everyone in the Emerald Grove? Why would Astarion even be surprised that I let him kill spawns? “I can't believe you let me do that. Killing all those people.” What if I spent the entire game supporting Astarion in his quest for power and world domination? This narrative doesn't stand up to criticism because it fails to take into account so many nuances. Welch says it's their personal interpretation. It is not an unquestioned truth.


Not everything spawn says dictates narrative. Otherwise, let us then recognize that refusing to ascend was not his personal choice, but a sacrifice:

Astarion: How dare you! After all I've done for you - after everything I've sacrificed!

Which he could potentially regret.

Or that deep down inside he is very scared and feels vulnerable, “nothing.”:

Astarion: I'm still nothing, aren't I? Just an expandable frail spawn who will burn to a crisp soon enough.

That being said, AA is much more confident:

Astarion: All right. Fine. Give me the worm. I will take every weapon I can, damn it all.


One of Velioth's basic rules is that strength is born from loneliness. Sharing with others is weakness. The first thing AA does is share his blood and Mephistopheles gifts with Tav. In the epilogue he also expresses bitterness, because of his loneliness (If Tav broke up with him). AA seriously deviates from the principles of Cazador and Velioth. AA - This is Astarion 2.0.

One of the kisses *is* a spawn kiss. The face grab kiss was originally tagged for Karlachs origin first kiss, just after her engine is fixed. But as with most Karlach origin things, this was bugged until patch 6.

Sometimes it really feels that spawn can do no wrong. While no matter what AA goes, he can do no right. I personally do not see villains as so black and white. I enjoying seeing them in a more naunced light.

In one of the threads created on this forum by spawn fans, some of them asked for a kiss with a bite. Isn't that the kiss of an abuser? And do you have to give two reactions to that kiss? I'm confused.

Also, just want to emphasize how scared expressions are in demand:



Statistics for the first 24 hours. The ratio of pageviews to downloads is impressive.

It always seemed perfect to me if some of the spawn and AA kisses were the same. Let's say Karlach's kiss is perfect for both spawn and lord. This kiss is moderately dominant and it would demonstrate that such “manners” didn't come out of nowhere. I'd also like to bring back the standard kiss from patch 5, because it suits the lord just as well as the spawn. And it would create a fair balance in routes. I also know that spawn and lord have neck kisses that were not included in patch 7 for some reason.

I might be wrong, because I only have youtube as reference, but the Karlach-kiss isn't the Karlach-kiss anymore. They have an ordinary first spawn kiss now as far the the yts can be trusted and besides no I wouldn't want that one for spawn, it's beyond the discussion of player character's facial animations.

Besides Ascended got the 5 patch kiss back. It's the ultimate evil ending kiss now. It even got a new camera angle.

Wait they fixed the angle on the kiss for AA but not for you guys? ;( why

Sadly I don't have PC to confirm if it's still in the rotation for spawn via set staging. I do have file paths and scripts. And they appear unchanged for what they were to now. I could be wrong, please inform me if I am! But I do remember people asking for that kiss for AA, because they felt it fit him well. Then we got it in patch 6.

The patch 5 kiss is fine, it's the new patch 6 one that has the odd angle for same-sized Tavs. They gave the patch 5 a more dramatic angle for the evil ending too and made it look a little more extra. I quite liked it, a good triumphant kiss before conquering the heavens.

Besides, not matter how it looks for Karlach now, my position on the AA kisses has been and is, that they are too much and are too extra for a normal rotation. So for Astarion to look at Karlach's neck first and then taking the red stuff from her mouth instead makes narrative sense once, for that specific character at that moment. I also thought it was interesting as a "this might be our last chance for a kiss" option - I got it with the old expressions and it was the first kiss Astarion gave my character after ascension. So that was fine too. In a rotation they are all too extra for my taste and personally, I also have a problem to see them romantically because of Astarion's expression and the lack of aftercare. Just as an explanation for why I would not want any of them for the spawn route. ^^

i made that thread bc im desperate for spawn to finally get a third kiss. Although I lean more towards spawn Astarion, I still like the bitey kiss and I'm also a AA fan. The new expressions I'm glad to have but thats just me. The patch 6 expressions were really triggering for me personally & i could not ascend him until I downloaded that mod that made the expressions better. I do understand people for not necessarily liking the new expressions and I could see how they are triggering for them but that is how I felt with the old ones. I can see why maybe giving the option could be ideal for people but I can also see why some people are against it.


I agree wtih this! I just want balance for the kisses lmfao & having a neck or bite kiss for spawn sounds good to me ( but I would want them to be soft and maybe even goofy)

Because it's OOC for AA and goes against the script. AA is not a rapist. I've written that hundreds of times and I'll write it a hundred more times. If you are truly an AA fan, you should realize that.

1. Prior to patch 6, AA did not grab Tav by the neck without mutual consent. Only when Tav asked for it. It's spelled out in the script.
2. AA took Tav's opinion into account.
3. AA also had no problem with being gentle. I.e. I don't see any reason why AA can't have the standard kiss from patch 5 for those who chose tenderness in the transformation scene.
4. Tav didn't sit on his knees because of fear. Where did it suddenly come from in patch 6? Between patch 5 and 6 did AA start torturing Tav?

Patch 6 contradicts all of this. It really bothers me how willing people are to ignore these reasons and downplay their importance. AA's intimate scenes are described as completely mutual, not violent. In the script. That is Larian's original intent. And rewriting AA's character on the fly is not something I or other AA fans should have to put up with.

Honestly, without exaggeration, if the option to select appears in the game, Larian will die for me. All these half years after patch 6 I felt incredibly resentful towards Larian, I felt betrayed. Because Larian gave in to the majority and everyone but AA fans had a holiday on February 14. Because when they designed those kisses, they weren't thinking about us, they were thinking about the spawn fans. I still have an unpleasant aftertaste after patch 6. Including because it started a new wave of bullying AA fans. The first one was after Welch's comments were made public. I know they wrote their comments in private. But you have to realize that if you write something in the public space about a game's story, as a developer, your opinion is going to be spread all over the place. I'm glad for the changes in patch 7 and I hope Larian won't let all this happen again.

There are posts on tumblr where people don't hesitate to write that they hate AA fans because of patch 7. It seems like this will never end. What's happening on the forum right now suggests that AA fans won't be able to feel relaxed. At least not until patch 8. Well, we've been through a lot in the year since the game's release.

I don't think it's fair to say that only real AA fans would agree with you and not have any different opinions or interpretations. It's clear that no one is changing anyone else's mind here. I disagree with some, though not all, of the things you said. I doubt Larian added those AA kisses for the benefit of Spawn Astarion fans. They would not have wanted to cause such unhappiness.

Other people have already provided evidence to support their different views about AA's story/characterization, so I won't get into it beyond pointing out that Larian cares about the players. My goal was to share feedback on this animation change with Larian, which I did and which I and others are allowed to do on this public forum. My biggest issue is that the new expressions are extremely upsetting to me and other players, to the point that I don't even want to play this route anymore. My secondary issue is that the new happy expressions also limit the role-play and characterization my character can realistically have now if they romance AA.

I don't think it's fair that people are arguing against compromising and giving players more choice. Especially when limiting role-play was the exact same argument given to support this change in the first place. This is an RPG game where making choices is a major mechanic, and both sets of expressions already exist. Emotions are high. People felt upset by patch 6. That's valid. I also feel extremely upset by both patch 6 and 7 for various reasons. My feelings are just as valid as anyone else's. Politely disagreeing with someone is not a personal attack.

I think at this point we're likely just talking past each other. From what I've seen, most of the people against the toggle or "option" are against it for the very same reasons we were against the faces in patch 6.

It's triggering.
Dead dove/ non-con should not be in place without a trigger warning.
The only way to avoid it would be via meta gaming.
The doubt that general audiences want to play an ab*** victim that is sprung on them as a surprise.
And the fear faces create a character dynamic the story does not support, and it turns a favored and loved character into something that is triggering and harmful to many players, as well as creates an extreme inconsistency with what's already written.

I see few people arguing against RP. More simply the points above. In fact, as I and a few others have already said (/gen), "it's not about the roleplay".

For me personally it's about protecting other a***e victims, unwitting players, and myself. From my perspective, the number of players triggered by non-con being *in* the game will outweigh the number who are triggered by it *not being* in the game. So I will continue to propose it stay out of the game.

I personally view these patch 6/7 kisses as already including non-con without a trigger warning in the game. Again, an unwitting new player who never played before would expect to get only a kiss, when asking for a kiss. They did not consent to anything extra. Honestly, I wish Larian had been more careful and never put this kind of extreme content in without a proper warning, in the first place. It should have been easy to predict that these animations would have upset people no matter what the expressions were. But Pandora's box has already been opened.

Also, the thing with Haarlep is already non-con in the game. I also dislike that scene, but at least it's obvious to a player what's going to happen if you "take your clothes off." I would argue that's warning enough, because it's indicative of the direction things are headed. It is not clear to a new player what else is going to happen if they ask AA for a kiss.

I wish my safety and comfort mattered to people too. I'm advocating for a choice, because I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. If I still had insurance and money, I would have already booked another therapist appointment to process why I got so triggered by the new expressions. I don't have that, but at least I can voice my concerns about all of this.

Please let us not import beefs from elsewhere, or associate fans expressing their preferences here with bullying elsewhere. Or insist that the only “true” fans of a character will agree with us as that does not respect the character preferences of others.

This thread also clearly touches on topics that are very difficult for many of us and it does not make it easier to keep going over and over the same ground. Please allow others the space to express how they feel (something about which they can’t be wrong) without repeatedly challenging them on that and making them feel they have to respond as that leaves us all going round in circles: quoting and directly disagreeing with others makes it harder for them to disengage than simply expressing our own, different preferences and views. And if you have already made your perspective clear and are not being challenged or questioned by other forum members, then continuing to post smacks of last wordism and threatens to spam or flood the forums: please take the high ground and move on.

The Red Queen, I think a lot of this problem could be solved by limiting posts in these AA patch 7 complaint threads to people who are actually unhappy with the changes and want to discuss / propose solutions. For some reason, people who are happy with the patch 7 changes keep coming into these threads and repeating the same arguments over and over until the thread gets locked. The audience for these threads is Larian, not forum members who already got the changes they wanted. If they don’t like this suggestion, they should just open a separate thread. Then we can all keep our sanity and Larian can read the feedback and make their own decision.

You guys have to realize that it can also be triggering to see posts about bringing back the Patch 6 kisses to the game. And like the mods say when the forum is being constantly filled with these repeat posts and arguments it's hard to avoid the topic and it is easy to get sucked into them again.

We had already created our own thread, where you and your Reddit buddies immediately came running and Red Queen claimed we were “provoking”. The thread has been locked.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=946501#Post946501

You're also actively attacking a thread created by AA fans and you're personally calling for it to be locked.

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=937439&page=60

No, can't do that. Everyone has the right to express their opinion on the proposal. That's just life. In the threads where we asked to remove the face of horror, people also came and said how wrong we were, that everything was fine, nothing needed to be changed. And that's normal, everyone has something to say, you can't do without it. Discussions are inevitable.

It's the spawn fans who write fanfics about the violence in the AA route and create videos like this. Larian clearly created kissing based on such creativity:





The game didn't have that mood until patch 6.



Great idea, don't play.



It's not a compromise to make AA a rapist. And it's not a role-playing issue. It was never just a role-playing issue. It's an issue of AA being rewritten as a character, devaluing the script among other things. The personality I saw in patch 6 was not the Ascended Astarion. It was the Ascended Astarion from the fanfics. A compromise would be the return of the gentle kiss (patch 5) for those who prefer a more gentle relationship dynamic rather than scared faces. But every single one of you ignored that compromise. Because the only reason people are so angry about the changes in patch 7 is because you've been stripped of the strongest argument for AA being an abuser and tyrant. It's not about roleplaying, it's about this.

We have fallen below required standards and I'm not happy.

If you feel the need to discuss BG3's fans rather than the game itself, you may be in the wrong headspace for healthy debate.