Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Astarion's epilogues with Spoiler!Tav are still incredibly bugged

And by Spoiler!Tav I mean Mindflayer!Tav.
They are so confusing.
So AA breaks up with Illithid!Tav, insults them and tells them to get out of the city. But somehow in the epilogue he still talks like they are back together, calls them 'my love'? Narrator says there is a hormone of love in his brain? If this is the case, shouldn't there be some reflection about how he regrets he broke up with Tav previously and insulted them? How he said he can never be in a relationship with an illithid?
Because right now it's treated like that conversation before the epilogue never happened when M!Tav chooses to stay in a alliance with him.
The same for Spawn - his epilogue doesn't acknowledge the previous dialogue about how M!Tav is still too precious to him to walk away and he is willing to try, but currently not be romantically involved.
But then, if you've gone with Karlach or Lae'Zel and you first meet him at the epilogue party as a Mindflayer, he treats Tav as his lover and it looks like he is already okay with them being a Mindflayer? But then why does it only happen if they were separated for 6 months?

And honestly, it only makes sense for Spawn to get together with a mindflayer!Tav, not AA, because only Spawn was willing to try.
It feels like watering down all the companions when basically everyone, including Lae'Zel, wants to romance a mindflayer. No consequences for becoming one.

There is a specific tag for AA and Flayer!Tav if you agree to rule with him "from the shadows". It's labeled "illithid alliance". Which leads to partnered dialogue in the epilogue. Devnotes note AA as being attracted to Flayer!Tav's power. So I think it makes sense! Given he's a power hungry vampire.

I have heard people discussing that UA now stays with Flayer!Tav as well. Which I think is fine. Different people like to RP different things. Though I know some spawn fans are upset because it feels like UA is just going along with what Tav wants, and no longer sets boundaries.

But given there's a direct tag for it, along with devnotes, I wouldn't say it's a bug. It seems writers at least thought it made sense. I personally like it!

Alliance =/= romance.
These are two completely different things.
He straight up says he is disgusted by Illithid appearance.
He breaks up with them as a lover: "The mechanics alone...".
Also, the devnotes on AA/Mindflayer say that he hasn't given them a single thought.
And the epilogue doesn't acknowledge the fact he broke up with them if you chose to stay allies with him.

Spawn says they haven't seen each other in 6 months and talks like the last they've seen each other was him running away from the sun. Which directly contradicts previous events, if Tav didn't go with Karlach or Lae'Zel.
So sorry, but at least Spawn's epilogue is most definitely bugged.

Support. These endings are extremely confusing and contradictory. I suspect if the devs double checked the tags again, it would be a fairly simple fix.

I haven't paid attention to the flags for these in a hot minute so take my words with a grain of salt, but IIRC, the reason this issue happens is that it doesn't properly categorise the event as a break-up, but as a "secret third thing" that's still described as not being together in the flag description. I assume it was this way because they thought they might have to do content related to it in the future since it's a bit more specific, but then they... kind of didn't, leading to having to work with the more default paths. The "Illithid Alliance" flag is never used again in other files. It's only present in the Elfsong Tavern scene. It's the same for the "Stayed as friends" Spawn flag. Also never brought up in another file.

What's confusing about the AA branch though, is that I have seen videos where the player has clearly chosen to break up with him, no alliance no nothing (unless you can choose to do the alliance but also go with the Emperor?) when in this instance the breakup is actually properly flagged. But it still triggers lines it's not supposed to, if the videos on it are any indication...? I'm a bit confused over why that is. Maybe someone squided-out then went with Karlach...? There is another flag that's now properly working in-game, that is intended for Tav's that left for Avernus or the Astral plane- and it seems to now trigger for Mindflayers as well? I'm trying to piece the whole thing together, since that flag isn't anywhere else except in the epilogue file. That flag is meant for characters who have been torn apart, not have actively broken up. So it's strange. To me it's very obviously broken, especially with some of the devnotes available that contradict a lot of this.

With Spawn, they have now made the branch available for (formerly) romanced Mindflayer Tav- they're not in a relationship, and despite what you chose in the epilogue, they seem to have stayed away for those 6 months. HOWEVER, there are options for a (currently) romanced Tav where you can say things to him as a Full Ceremorph, which would be impossible to trigger as is. I'm not sure if it was force of habit at play there, since in the Epilogue they just add Ceremorph options for almost every dialogue line.

I've looked up the datamined files, and you are complitely right about the "Illithid Alliance" flag. And because of it, we have the weirdest thing, where AA first insults and breaks up with Illithid Tav and then in the epilogues they are suddenly together.

The same for Spawn Astarion after he says: "You mean too much to me to just walk away", you are right. It gives it the "Friendship" flag which is never used again. Yes, he breaks up romantically, but clearly states he wants to try to adjust and still wants to be together without being intimate. But then suddenly in the epilogue you talk with each other as though this conversation never happened and the last time you saw him was him running away from the sun.
Very-very bugged and extremely confusing.

So if Larian have no time and resources to add these specific dialogues, I suggest, since Larian now made everyone to be okay with loving Illithid-Tav, including Lae'Zel, to give Spawn a romantic epilogue with this Tav (it will look like they've adjusted during the 6 months period) and AA needs to obviously break up with this Tav without 'my love' in the end (I mean, AA, after all his insults and awful words to this Tav, thinks what? That Illithid!Tav will somehow magically cure themselves and become human again?).
Otherwise, at this point, it's just unfair that everyone is okay to have Illithid Tav as their lover aside from Astarion in his both paths. I mean, Spawn Astarion was the one who told half-Illithid Tav: "I don't care how you look like, you are wonderful!". Not Lae'Zel.

TBH, I really like that Astarion draws a line there, where most characters won't. It's good for him to set boundaries, and I don't like when the game bends itself to cave to the player so they can get away with whatever they want rather than setting limitations- and there's also a dialogue that's now triggerable where, when confronted again about being with an illithid, he says "Even I have my limits, darling"

Sorry I'm a bit confused, are they trying to change Illithid tav/Astarion romance to him staying with them?

Unsure what you're referring to exactly, but to sum up the thread: there are some seeming inconsistencies in the interactions between Astarion and a previously romanced Mindflayer Tav in the epilogue, where he will go back and forth on how he feels about you and what your relationship is. It is heavily suspected this is due to a coding oversight. I'm pretty sure this has been happening for a while, though, but there's a new line introduced in patch 7 that's triggering for Mindflayer Tav and Astarion that's also seemingly accidental.

I would have completely agreed with you and would have said the same before Patch 5, but since even Lae'Zel is now willing to romance an Illithid Tav it just feels like a statement from Larian.
I mean, out of all the companions, if Spawn has such limits, then so should Lae'Zel. At least.
If they make Lae'Zel draw the line here too, then I agree that Spawn should too.
But as it currently exists in canon, it just feels unfair to me.

Eh, I don't know. I don't think it's targeted at Astarion, I just think they made Lae'zel's character ever so slightly worse by making that possible. So rather, I'd prefer if they removed the Lae'zel and Mindflayer romance rather than making Astarion also be A-OK with it.

I also felt that the Elfsong Tavern scene felt a lot better than what I imagine is the alternative by virtue of him coming to terms with the fact he can't be with you. A version where instead he's okay with it would probably be more boring, I think. It's different with say, Gale, where you can see how enthusiastic he is about the whole ordeal still: It adds to his character, rather than detracting.

There's also a bit of a spectrum here when it comes to accepting Tav, since IIRC Wyll also accepts a romance with Mindflayer Tav but it's kind of... disturbing? He keeps you in some basement or something. I'm not sure if they changed it, or if they even intended it as creepy because that's not a character I'd expect something like that from.

If they remove the Lae'zel and Mindflayer romance and maybe even Shadowheart or Halsin with M!Tav, I will be totally okay with Spawn rejecting this Mindflayer romance too.

And no, I'm not saying that the Elfsong Tavern scene should be changed! It's perfect already, but it still, IMO, leaves the possibility open for Spawn to get back together with M!Tav. He says so himself: "Maybe we will adjust, maybe we won't, but you still mean too much to me to just walk away". After this it can make sense he has adjusted after 6 months period.

Yep. Wyll does that in his Duke route, IIRC, because people can't see their Duke with a mindflayer. Still together with M!Tav romantically, though.

Weren't it originally just Gale and Shadowheart who stuck romantically with a Mind Flayer Tav? I have never seen Shadowhearts dialogue for it though.

I think almost everyone accepted you from the get-go. Minthara is similarly enthusiastic, she's REALLY down for squid. For Shadowheart I think it makes sense that she's okay with it.
I'd expect Wyll to have conflicted feelings on it, but he's a romantic so he'd probably just go full Beauty and the Beast (except the Beast never transforms back).
With Halsin, I'm unsure. He's got that awful chimera banter, so maybe Mindflayer isn't too far-fetched, and hopefully not too against Nature.

I can't recall what Karlach does, actually. And I'm not sure what I'd peg her down as.

I'll recognise that I thought that maybe Astarion would be up for it as well, given his reaction to half-mindflayer Tav. It made sense for him to not care *that* much for appearance. But then, seeing what they went with, I found I really liked him saying "no, actually, I'm sorry but I don't think I can do this, regardless of how I feel about you." I think that'd be the reasonable reaction from most people.

It seems likely to me this is what happened. I agree and would like to support the request to fix this for both of his endings.

I wonder if they can't fix it, because they didn't record any dialogues for these paths (Illithid Alliance and Stayed together with Illithid as friends flags).

I mean, Astarion still has no reaction to being kidnapped and saved, just like Tav and companions. Not even in the datamined files.
So it's totally possible these dialogues just don't exist here as well.

Still, I think, AA staying together with M!Tav is extremely jarring, even without existing dialogues, this should be fixed to them being separated and preferebaly the flag which states they were together needs to go, because after all the vile AA's comments about Illithid Tav it looks very weird when he calls them "my love".

Agreed, there is no way that AA would want to stay with Mindflayer Tav/Durge after all the cruel things he says to them. It simply doesn't make sense and is contradictory.