Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion (Spoiler) (Suggestion) All Companions Should Have This Act III Option

I mean there doesn't even need to be a reason for companions to become illithid.
Make the ones, who slurped tadpoles the whole game the illithid, because they can't resist. In my game that is Astarion or Minthara, since they don't need convincing. So if you are lucky and have your slurpers with you, just let them get turned by default, including your main character. I think the tadpoles should have more consequences.

I know, this won't be happening anymore, but I wish, this would be a thing. You probably have a nasty surprise in your first playthrough, but after that, you have basically control over who turns. And first playthroughs are rarely perfect anyway.

There is time for that.
And its a bit futher in the future.

???
Care to explain that statement?

What you said may happen ...
Just not at that point.

You mean in the next game? I don't think it will be possible,

Super secret conversations happening here. XD

Yes, I meant that if a companion slurps the tadpoles, they just should get changed by Orpheus or Empi.
In my case: if Minthara is my slurper and I have her with me while freeing Orpheus, he should not even ask, just change her, because she is already mostly Illithid.

Astarion and Minthara must subjugate the Brain themselves and become Absolute in that case, they won't behave like Karlach. Making someone forcibly illithid and expecting that character to do what you want afterwards is extremely foolish, it doesn't work that way, I guess Orpheus who is wise enough and has lived for many years should be realizing this and he wouldn't take that risk. He would rather sacrifice himself for his people and the world than create a new Absolute in this way.

They don't really have an agenda in this scenario. Astarion and Minthara are no more special than any other character honestly. I'm talking about being forced to change, because they used tadpoles. If you don't give Astarion or Minthara tadpoles, then it is different. But I mainly use those two as tadpole slurpers, because I myself don't want to use them.

I meant that characters have their own personalities and if Orpheus forces someone to become illithid, it doesn't make them an obedient zombie, the illithid retains their personality (we see this in the example of Karlach, who changed a bit, but retained many aspects of her personality). Those who have been forcibly made illithid will naturally take revenge, because all the bad things have already happened and they have nothing to lose (rather the opposite, becoming an Absolute will be better than just being an illithid) or they themselves will want to take more power. But after thinking about it, I think it doesn't make sense for another reason - the number of tadpoles is not important, one tadpole is enough for Orpheus to trigger ceremorphosis. One tadpole already triggers full ceremorphosis, Orpheus (in the prism) has blocked signals from the Elder Brain before, all he has to do is stop doing that with any companion or Tav, it doesn't matter how many tadpoles they have in their head, ten or one.

In the scenario of the game, everything is logical and correct - Orpheus turns to the leader of the group. Even if, he could force anyone to change, but he is well aware of the risks. Only someone who volunteers for this sacrifice can be trusted to do so. A lot depends on the character who becomes an illithid, they will have the Crown of Karsus in their hands. Tav can become an Illithid and take over the Brain without any problems, but a companion can't? If Tav refuses (and Tav represents the whole group in this case), and can also talk Karlach out of doing it, then Orpheus has to take over. If Orpheus were a character capable of such a not only cruel but also extremely reckless and stupid (to achieve his goal, and his goal is to stop the Grand Design, it's more important to him than his own life) act, as forcibly changing someone, then among other things, Tav should have had the option to attack him and try to kill him, to prevent him from doing so.

But there could be more volunteers, not just Karlach. Lae'zel, too, could probably offer herself instead of Prince Orpheus, she's motivated to do so. And someone like Wyll or Minsc, Tav could try to persuade (persuading, even if manipulative, is not the same as forcing, the persuaded have agreed to it, accepted it as the right option, and will act as they are required to - to save the world, like Karlach, not destroy it, as the forcibly changed will do).

I think we should remember that Orpheus is a gith and cruel. I personally prefer his route to Empy, but both are not acting out of the goodness of their heart.
And I would find it interesting to attack him, followed of course by an instant game over, since Orpheus power was the only thing, stopping the brain from making the group part of the Grand Design again.

My point was, that there should be stakes and consequences to use the tadpoles - either for Tav/Durge or a companion using the tadpoles. As of now, you only have a consequence, when you choose a specific evil path and botch a dice roll ( though a very high one). I think the tadpoles should be a high risk and high reward thing in general. You should be less able to resist the more tadpoles you consume, because you become more illithid the more you take in and use the power. Minthara is pretty open minded about it in general and doesn't mind the physical changes at all when she consumed the astral tadpole.

And of course a character changed by Orpheus or Empy is not a zombie, but they probably know, that they risk getting controlled by the brain, if they kill the only person, who has the power to prevent that. And even though, not all companions are as smart as Gale or as knowledgeable about illithids as Lae'zel, but by that time, they know the dangers and the full story of the protection.

That is not entirely corect tho ...
Illithids are DnD response to "ship of Theneus" (google it, its fascinating thought experiment).

Illithids copy your whole life, personality, experiences and thoughts into its brain, and while it may seem like that person is still there since that is all they contain in moment of transformation ... the original person died in the process and this is entirely new being ... ergo

And it will dissapear bit by bit as the time goes ...
SInce the same "copy all" process will go with every single feeding.

As the matter of fact, our protagonist should have get game over, once we decide to turn.
But that would be boring.


Agreed.
They may do what you need, but they should logicaly seek a way to mess you up in the process aswell.


+1

Exactly!

Yeah, that's so creepy to think about.

Wouldn't it be very unhelpful though?

In case of the domination ending (I'll just leave the spoiler tags out of it, I assume everyone reading this is well spoiled by now) it would make sense to me if both the player and their partner (maybe also the other companions, if they are part of the scene) had to resist the Netherbrain. The brain wants to regain control and if it fails to subjugate your character but manages to take control over your character's partner, it can then use them to fight you to either lower your defences or kill you.

Empi has already shown that he has no qualms to help you reach your potential against your will at the start of Act 3, but he seems to prefer taking Orpheus' power for himself. So why should he force anyone to transform at the last moment? To have stronger allies? It doesn't sound such a great idea to destroy your allies' main motivation for survival right before the final battle. Yes, there might be players who want to save the realm before all, but I feel most take the neutral stance of wanting a good ending for themselves and their pixel friends.

And Orpheus seems to only accept your proposal if it is a no-way-back commitment situation. It's why he refuses the Orb unless you assure him of a back-up solution, Gale might decide he wants to live after all, but if you have turned into a mind flayer, your fate is sealed. He does not seem to take back-stabbing into account though, which is odd given his distrust and initial hostility towards the player.

Stakes and consequences are all good and well, but I generally prefer a longer build up for choices so you can brood over the decision, instead of these last minute astral jump scares. For example, I love how in Gale's Origin, Mystra reveals that only the orb can truly destroy the Crown. Detonating it would be that ultimate sacrifice for the Weave, while delivering the Crown to her is only a compromise. Right after being given a way out, this heavy burden is placed on your shoulders and it follows you all through Act 3 - and I loved that.

I wouldn't say Orpheus is cruel. Harshness of the gith yes, definitely, as well as the fact that what is truly important to the gith is the well-being of their people and the fates of other races and the inhabitants of Faerûn are unimportant. As long as a member of an alien race does not become an ally of the Gith, they have high notions of honor and the Gith know how to be grateful. Orpheus, moreover, is a wise and skillful diplomat (he builds ties with the Githzerai, as we also learn in the epilogue from Lae'zel, who becomes a diplomatic representative, and given the history of the Githyanki and the Githzerai, that's saying a lot). We've already helped Orpheus, we've already become allies, and if he just forcibly changes someone who has become an ally to him without asking, that's not very honorable for him. It makes much more sense to offer and find a volunteer, especially since someone should understand the meaning and necessity of the act. As a diplomat, Orpheus also has to understand the mindset of other races as well; the one he's trying to forcibly transform may have someone who loves them. Even if they don't attack him at the moment (although I would choose this particular game-over, if Orpheus started changing Astarion, my character would think of nothing else at that moment and I would never free Orpheus again, and would play through the game exclusively in alliance with the Emperor, who definitely wouldn't do that, he's an Illithid himself), after defeating Brain, there's nothing stopping Tav and whoever he made Illithid from getting revenge on Orpheus for that and killing him, and that would bring harm to the entire Gith people and their fight against Vlaakith. Yes and the image of Orpheus it ruins - this character is interesting, well shown (as well as in general githyanki, Lae'zel and their culture is revealed interesting and worthy), causes sympathy, and the bastard who just takes and turns into illithid your companion - well, one bad playthrough, and after that just never want to free him, no matter whether tadpoles were used or not, which also spoils the storyline of Lae'zel and githyanki.


There are consequences for Tav/DU - I had as high a roll as ldo58 for not becoming half-illithid (even I think it was 30 the first time, but I could be lying, I don't remember the exact number) because Astarion and I took almost all the tadpoles for two, when I shared with Minthara in the next playthrough, the roll was still quite high. In Honor mode, I don't use tadpoles myself because of this. I know Minthara is fine with the physical changes, but she won't want revenge, she'll want to become an Absolute and take the power herself and rule.


Not at this moment, when they risk falling under Brain's control, but later, when they use the Crown of Karsus themselves. When Karlach becomes an Illithid, in a fight with Brain, she must subdue Brain using the Crown of Karsus. There is a moment of choice when Tav can make the evil choice to attack Karlach and take control of the Brain. But Karlach could do it herself and subdue both Brain and Tav and everyone else, she doesn't do it not because she can't, but because she never wants to do it. Astarion and Minthara will do it. In Astarion's case, Orpheus will be very, very hurt afterward, and Minthara will probably be satisfied with that outcome, and she won't let go of this power that has fallen into her hands on its own.


Yes, thank you! Also, the illithid has a completely different set of hormones, these hormones are clearly different from the original state and, under the influence of these hormones there are quite serious changes, + every time we eat the brain we get a copy of the personality. Illithid is no longer a warm-blooded mammal, it's a different organism altogether. Karlach says her engine has cooled down (illithids are clearly cold-blooded, more like an amphibian, like a fish). Over time, enriched by these experiences from multiple meals, and naturally a different hormonal background of the illithid, the personality will change greatly, gaining knowledge and experience of the surrounding world of all these eaten humanoids. Karlach becomes much calmer after the transformation, her previous emotionality disappears literally immediately, which also shows the changes in the hormonal background and neural connections of the illithid. Illithid gets the life experience of the eaten humanoid + new hormonal background of illithid = in time there will be little left of the former worldview of the individual (illithid will also stop humanizing food, but will distinguish who is a friend and who is an enemy). But, unlike the real world, there is a soul physically on Faerûn. The soul is still there, and it is this soul that Ansur tried to pull out of Balduran. In the Emperor's story, the Emperor's body itself lay sleeping, and Ansur was talking to Balduran's soul. But as the Emperor was under the influence of a new hormonal cocktail, he liked his new form and had no intention of terminating it. Illithids tend to like a new form, even if the character had previously perceived the transformation as something immeasurably horrible, new hormones affect the personality. Even Orpheus, who asks to be finished off so he doesn't “live as an abomination”, can be talked out of it and will live. Ansur wanted to free Balduran from his new shell, he wanted to return his soul and allow his soul to enter the Domein (he probably expected to fish Balduran's soul out of the Astral Sea and bring it to the Fields of the Dead, since the gods themselves have no power over Illithid souls, this is an assumption since Ansur considered this act a mercy).

If viewed from the outside, from the eyes of someone who knew this individual before, then, under the influence of the new hormonal cocktail and the experience of the meals, that viewer might say that the illithid has lost their soul, themselves, everything. Neuroscience - hormones guide our decisions.

I liked how Larian showed the interaction between Ansur and Balduran. Also, as Karlach is still there. Will she change by eating other people's brains - yes, she will.


Yeah, and this is basically impossible to display in a game (for the player). Imagining how we'd feel and what we'd think if our human hormones were replaced with illithid hormones is impossible. Not to mention the experience of being fed. It can be reasoned that a newborn illithid that has not yet eaten another's brains is still guided to the greatest extent by the experience and worldview of their former personality.


That's right. Otherwise, there's just no point in all this saving the realm if you and your friends aren't to live in it.

Ha!
Not at all, my friend ... not at all.

You see there are lots of games (especialy if you like certain themes, lets say it this way) ... where your protagonist is basicaly lost in the process ... same situation could happen here.

Lets imagine together:
Instead of transformation scene we got ... where our character simply squirm in pain (is suppose) and then illithid stands its place ... we would make something entirely new, and unique in this game.

We would ... change our perspective to first person!

Imagine:
You click on that dialogue option, offering yourself to turn ... and then you see your character squirm and being in pain ... next second, you are no longer looking AT the character, you are looking at The Emperor / Orpheus trough your character eyes, still squirming ... and the sight fades to dark in meere seconds, all you hear there is Narator telling something like:
"Too late you realize this is end of your journey, too late you understand true weight of your decision, but there is no going back, not anymore ... your body, your mind, even your soul, everything has ben lost in the process ... the ultimate sacrifice."

Then we let this nothingness for a second or two to sink in ...
And once again in first person, we would trough eyes of our character see in flash of light The Emperor / Orpheus abowe us ...
Narator telling something like:
"You were BORN anew! Yet you rememer your own death. You wonder for a second if is this really you, or just something that remembers you?
But there is time and place for such questions, and its not here, nor now ... you have work to do.

And then you get that scene, where newborn Illithid is standing up and materializing that weird armor.

Tada!
Entirely possible as you may see.

In Disco Elysium, once you start watching someone else's playthrough, you immediately turn it off so you don't spoiler further and get to play the game yourself as quickly as possible:


Hardspace: Shipbreaker is an example of breaking the illusion of continuity, when you first get to the place where you will be disassembling ships, an automated system puts you in a capsule and sort of kills you in the process of creating a digital copy of your neural network to revive in case of an emergency while disassembling ships.


I imagined it... And... Impressive. Yes, you can create a great transformation entourage from an artistic point of view.

Ha, I like it! Still could work on the dialog lines - display the perception of this change in the dialog options, more other dialog options for Tav-illithid different from those of regular Tav, and more lines from the narrator relative to those of other characters - for example, another illithid could communicate with Tav-illithid mentally, and a dialog with a humanoid character may be framed by words from the narrator pushing Tav in a certain direction (“He's subject to his emotions and thinks this decision is absolutely right”, “You would have reacted differently before, but now you have a lot more senses, you're free of emotions and can see the bigger picture”).

In Disco Elysium, an example of conveying the perception of Harry's new personality is that the narrator, represented by Harry's different senses, says only what his new personality sees and perceives, and over the course of the game, as we unravel the events that led Harry to this state, also in parallel investigating the murder, by the end of the game we have a complete picture of who Harry was. But at the beginning of the game we get sort of a new identity for Harry, who is open to different paths.

If we're thinking about immersion, then yes, it turns out it is possible to create an impressive entourage of trasformation.

Feels like we are aiming towards offtopic ...
So i say just this, and then leave it ... if i dont respond any futher, dont take it personaly.

Raphaël states in Act 3 that the elder brain does not have emotions like humanoid mortals, but that his current state is very much like "angry".
So I think that they do have this emotional factor complementing the pure logic.