Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion There must be more true friend companions in the game who support you no matter what

That's amazing. I'd probably feel the same if I hadn't met one Lae'zel and two Shadowhearts in real life - and it never ended well.

When it comes to the "I know" line, the nuance for me is in the tone of voice and facial expression that makes me interpret it as teasing rather than "get lost". Clearly it didn't for you, so that is unfortunate then in that case.


Yeah, I had a feeling that a topic on men-women relations could be an important factor in how you view the male characters compared to the female characters in BG3, which is why I asked out of curiosity. Totally fair to keep that to yourself, that would go way beyond the scope of your original thread topic as well I feel.


Glad to hear! At the end of the day, games are all about finding ways to enjoy them. Given that you've gone through multiple playthroughs going by you mentioning trying different romance paths, that's probably hundreds of hours of gaming for a single purchase, not bad!

Nah sorry, you misunderstood and have primed yourself to assume the worst. It was a joke as Taril said, as in she doesnt want to make it too serious and cheesy even though she likes the compliment, it breaks through awkwardness. Or you can see it as teasing and being playful, which is appropriate in flirting stage of relationship.

It's similar to this from Star Wars:


Also modding - this is just you making up your own headcanon to cope rather than truly engaging with the material. You should be more secure dealing with female characters and be playful back at them. Such modding is a lie.

Your whole take is built on a false premise, so I'm not even gonna bother. Just tell me - where do you see a joke, here's the video: https://shorturl.at/owgkB She sounds like a spoiled streamer who gets spammed with those comments daily. If that's a "joke" then describe what a non-joke would look like in this context.

But he butters you up pretty good.


I know, (Sorry! XD) that's why I was initially not interested in it at all. I looked into it because some mates of mine started playing it and what I found (on yt but also some interviews with the devs) mostly highlighted how the game encourages creative problem solving. Of course I might have had a peculiar algorithm working for me, but I did get the impression that they were aiming for a wider audience than just CRPG fans in mind.


Where did "terse and to the point" come from?

But I feel the conversation gotten a little lost, I am not sure what the context of the scene with Morrigan is, it reminds me of the scene when Astarion needles you after you spend time with Lae'zel (flopping about like dead fish) which stands in the context of his simple plan, and shows you just how an obnoxious a gossip he can be. It makes sense for him to butt in here but it would feel very weird to me if every companion wanted to chat about my character's relationship. I am also fine with Wither's dialogue for commenting on your relationship, it's basically a joke on the discomfort of someone being nosy about your romance, it doesn't need extra treatment, getting personalised responses to it is enough in my opinion. I rather have the personalised dialogue in situations that matter.

With generic I meant that "oh that oaf makes you happy, he must be good in bed" is an extremely cliché insult, but you are right, that might just be in character for her, but it's hard to imagine someone is looking forward to this conversation. But I also don't have emotional attachment to it, for me it's just a snippet of dialogue.

Honestly maybe you should ask AI what it thinks of that line. I literally show you scenes from a movie that is similar reply in a joking manner, and neither character is misunderstanding. What you would have preferred i guess is the generic "I love you too" or "You are also beautiful Sir Tav!" (that's a non-joke). That would just be boring. Your take is unpopular for a reason that people here probably see for the first time, so why are you acting like its an obvious interpretation? No she does not sound like how you describe it, nobody thinks this. She even says "youre sweet" right after, so she appreciates it. Like how do you not see that she hides her true feelings? Not sure what youre expecting. Shadowheart is a slowburn romance - the best kind.

Your fixation on "Efficiency", your stance of being against "More dialogue" and wanting there to be "Purpose" to all dialogue.

I.e. Terse and to the point. Little to no waffling for the sake of waffling. Nothing that is there simply because people like to talk about things. Nothing "Extra" that helps push characterization. Just everyone saying the bare minimum for what specific purposes they require.


IIRC the context is Morrigan being good friends with you and you deciding to pursue a romance with Alistair and then talking with Morrigan at camp. Whereby it's one of the new gossips that people will want to talk about because people like to gossip about such things.

As far as every companion commenting on such things... Part of that stems from how every companion becomes your BFF in video games. So everyone acts like your BFF, wherein a comment about you starting a relationship wouldn't be out of the ordinary. (One of the myriad of issues with current video game relationships, everyone being your bestest friend in the whole world)


It's less "Looking forward to this conversation" and more "It's a pleasant surprise to encounter it"

I mean, I don't "Look forward" to any conversations in any video game at all. Given the nature of dialogues they're only interesting the first time when you're obtaining new knowledge - Afterwards you already know what is going to be said and the overall outcomes of the conversation.

But it's nice to encounter things that help flesh out the world and characters. Stuff like the banter that BG3 companions have as you wander around. Is it deep and meaningful? No. But it provides additional information about the characters and especially how they view other companions (Which is even nicer given the rarity of any inter-companion interactions in video games)

So I'm not sat here thinking "Gosh, I wish my companions would talk about my romance choice!", but rather I'm pleasantly surprised when my choices in games (Not necessarily romance options) are brought up by companions and shape their views and opinions. As it provides more depth to not only the companions themselves, but also to decisions I make.

Even more so if I care enough to have my decisions swayed by the impact they can have on companions, an extreme example being the reasonably common "Do you become a Lich?" option, where picking yes grants you a ton of power to your character but the cost is most companions really don't like that (And will often leave you or be killed in the ritual of you becoming a Lich)

In that SW scene she replies "I know" to "I love you" - this is totally different. They re at such a stage of close connection that words have no meaning, only intentions. Even if she said "I hate you" it would still be an expression of love. It's totally different on a first date with Shadowheart. A first date is supposed to show that partners care about each other - that's enough. Saying "you are beautiful" is not the same as saying "you are 5 feet tall". It means "I'm telling you that you're special to me. I'm ready to open my heart and soul to let you in". If her reply to that is "I know" she's either a total moron or just indifferent to the person. So in both cases, if the guy has any self-respect and brains, he should just stand up and leave. I had to start a new game just so I could tell this pos to gtfo and continue alone.

She jumped at me in the druids' camp with "are you following me?" and got a very firm gtfo the second time. She went back to her boulder and continued sitting there alone, totally lost. I pass by this boulder often when I sell my loot, and I haven't seen anyone around telling her how she's beautiful. So what makes her so sure she's beautiful? A mirror? Right... because obviously this is exactly what a battle cleric should be like in a high fantasy setting.

The writers at Larian should stop injecting modern personality tropes into fantasy characters. Or better yet - give a wider selection of main female companions. Not every man is attracted to disrespectful bitches, you know. Minthara and Jaheira are great fantasy characters - it's just a shame they're conditional and don't have full questline.

A first date should be about getting to know each other more.

Though there is the dichotomy between trying to establish a lasting relationship (So wanting to get to know each other more deeply) and simply being interested in sex (So the date is just a pretense for "Do we like each other enough to consider sex?")



Saying "You are beautiful" is not even close to saying "You're special to me"

It is a barebones compliment. It is not deep, it is not meaningful. It's simply a compliment. One that doesn't necessarily indicate anything special (Or even anything related to a romance at all... I've called plenty of my female friends beautiful when they've dressed up nice, simply as a friendly compliment)

Most importantly, it's not unique. Which is where the joke aspect comes from. It's such a basic complement that she would have heard it TONS (Heck, one of Wyll's banter dialogues is him calling Shadowheart beautiful... Before he gets shot down by both Shadowheart AND Lae'zel because of how lame it is as a way of wooing someone).

Her saying "I know" is a direct jab at you making such a unoriginal compliment.

Still, she's not the total Bitchy McBitchface you portray her as because she doesn't JUST say "I know" and move on, she immediately follows up with a much more sincere tone "But thank you for noticing" which is her acknowledging that you made a complement and showing appreciation that you did.

Sure she doesn't reciprocate, but not all compliments need to be reciprocated (And as I mentioned in a prior comment, she's still unsure if you're interested in a proper relationship that she's looking for until the following day, so she'd naturally err on the side of holding back) and instead she does the subtle invite to a kiss... Which means a whole lot more than a generic and meaningless "You too"

I absolutely agree - it's not unique if you hear it on a daily basis. Which makes me wonder who are all these fans constantly telling Shadowheart "You're beautiful"?

So let's say you're single and alone like Shadowheart. You're walking down the street and Margot Robbie jumps out of a limo and gives you the most unoriginal compliment "You're beautiful." Are you really going to just say "I know" ? Of course not. You'd cling to that moment of attention and try to build a connection - unless, of course, you already have a lineup of beautiful women to choose from.

Only if you met online. In Shadowheart's case, we're supposed to know each other quite well by the time the tiefling refugees arrive at our camp.

Context is crucial. Sure, you can say "You're beautiful" to anyone - even a colleague at work - and the whole spectrum of responses from "Oh, thank you!" to "Say that again and I'm reporting you to HR" is completely valid and acceptable in that situation. But a BG3 date isn't some college party hookup - it's about choosing your closest and most trusted companion. In this context "You're beautiful" isn't just a compliment - it's an intention.

Absolutely agree - there's no need for it to be reciprocated. She just goes her way and I go mine after that. Which ends up creating a lack of female companions to romance in BG3.


I really prefer idealistic love over casual sex in fantasy worlds - after all they're called fantasy for a reason.

I'd tell the person that they are creepy and that I am going to leave now. Good if you can walk away from this and aren't waiting for the bus or worse still are stuck in one. What you are describing is an extremely uncomfortable situation.


Act 1 romance can literally be a party hook-up, tiefling-party-hook-up. (The other one too, I guess) Some companions are more serious and cautious about it than others but it is a flirting stage. I have read someone boast that they started a fling with everyone in act 1 - though I am not quite sure I believe that and how it is supposed to work. But it's not any kind of deep bond yet. Depending on the companion you are starting to date it's either pure sex, friends with benefits, a nice bonding moment that can remain friendly (I am very fond of talking the night away with Shadowheart as friends, and the magic lesson is always a delight) or a tentative first acknowledging of interest.

And if you like Minthara, knock her out and date her later ....

No, I don't like her. But she fits perfectly into the fantasy world - unlike Shadowheart. Actually everyone fits except Shadowheart, she is too "girly" for a battle cleric.

Maybe he's the only one heaven chose to be your partner - the one who's spent his whole life searching just for you. And you'd walk away and never see him again.. I'm joking That is correct behavior for a woman. But not for a guy who just met Margot Robbie.

You don't have to hear it on a "Daily basis" for it to not be unique.

Shadowheart alludes to having past suitors. Presumably as a pretty woman, she'd have quite a lot of interest. Likely with people calling her beautiful or some variation on it (Such as Wyll as I mentioned)


1) I don't know who tf that is.

2) I'm a guy, so receiving complements is already abnormal.

3) I've already mentioned that friends can complement each other. Which is at best what you and Shadowheart can consider each other at the particular moment in time (Intentions of a relationship are after this comment, with the kiss and follow up discussion in the morning)


Uh... No?

Both, in terms of first dates not being about getting to know each other ONLY online... If you ask someone out you're not going to know each other. Heck, even in this case the entire scene revolves around Shadowheart asking you about your past in Baldur's Gate and remarking on how she can't tell you more about herself because she doesn't know anything on account of her brainwashing. Quite literally the entire date is about getting to know each other more.

In terms of how well you know each other... At this point in time you're both strangers. You've simply done a few things to make her somewhat like you. But you'd hardly even be called friends. (Of course, you can get some further development and trust in her confiding in you about her past, which would make you somewhat closer. But you still no next to nothing about each other, hence the date explicitly about getting to know each other)


Actually, it's none of what you said.

The Tiefling party is about having fun and then winding down with a companion. You can choose from multiple companions if they like you. But its not necessarily an intention.

"You're beautiful" is just a compliment. You can say it and then not go for a kiss and not pursue a relationship with Shadowheart.

It is also not an intended compliment either. You say it because you were called out for staring at Shadowheart.


There's plenty of female companions to romance in BG3. Just because you dislike small things about the way the characters act doesn't mean they don't exist.

Honestly I'm boggled that you for some reason accept Female Astarion who's 100x worse than anything Lae'zel or Shadowheart does (Even if you face full on vile Shadowheart by being a Selunite Cleric and confronting her Shar worship, that's still not as bad as normal Astarion).

Even Female Gale is worse than the actual female characters, because Gale is still actively pining over Mystra while trying to romance you in Act 1...

But you give these characters a pass because... Reasons? While being completely upset by the female characters when you actively betray them, or take a jokey quip way too seriously?


But there are people who are like that. Shadowheart likely has met quite a few. As there are people like Astarion and Lae'zel who's romances start out with a focus on casual sex before any emotions start to be a factor.

Even Wyll is very interested in Lae'zel's focus on casual sex. Karlach is also pro-casual sex (Though that's in part because she's lacked any physical contact for so long). Minthara is quite noted for her love of casual sex, with her Act 1 camp scene being noted as the most graphic (With her recruitment meaning she's the least close to your character given the complete lack of time spent with her before engaging in this casual sex)

Just because it's a fantasy world doesn't mean it should be filled entirely this one ideal...

Shadowheart is one of the few characters that is in fact interested in idealistic love. But she has to check whether YOU are also interested in the same before she is willing to commit, in part due to the fact that there are plenty of people who are just wanting casual sex (And in part due to her own stigmas regarding relationships and trust)

You don't know who Margot Robbie is??? I'm honestly shocked you've never heard of that mega-famous singer from Cameroon who invented the entire genre of Vietnamese country music. You know - "Country Roads" and all that, played on didgeridoo pipes and wompadoo drums? According to polls, 9 out of 10 women and 7.43 out of 10 men would sacrifice their marriage for a single night with Margot Robbie.


No, not for THAT reason. I'm as straight as North Dakota Highway 46. With them it just feels like my help is seen as a favor - not as the "entry fee" for the relationship.

This is nonsense, such polls dont exist. You shouldnt believe every meme you see online. If Margot Robbie did what you suggested a normal person wouldnt take it seriously and wouldnt swoon or whatever, they'd think they're being pranked or on TV and they'd say something dismissive. I'd say "Uhh, thanks I guess?"

Well, let's hope you prefer "Observant" over "I know."


I'd feared you'd say that because that's not at all what I meant, I hoped including characterisation and mood into my example list would get that across, but apparently not. I like a good waffle, I just want it to be a nourishing waffle and not puff pastry. If you have a few lines of dialogue, you have a chance to do something with them other then fill up space.

And granted, I might have extrapolated too close to the sun when I read "companions react" and immediately imagined every companion wanting to talk to me about my recent romance scene like the familiar vultures at a holiday dinner. That is just such a nightmarish and artificial situation because while some friends might like to chat about your new relationship, others are more private. Of course you could riff off the awkward family dinner situation and turn it into a scene. That could be fun, a camp scene during dinner in which you and your love-interest get grilled a little (or more depending on the characters) about your relationship, that would be doubly cool because it would allow you to act as a couple during the game proper (some of the epilogues do a great job at this) which I feel is fairly rare since most romance focuses on getting the couple together. But that's of course a different level of effort.

Other than that, I love these surprises too, I just didn't think of them in the context of the clip because it seemed to be a "Everyone comments on us killing Raphael even though they were in camp" situation which doesn't incite excitement - even though it's interesting. I tend to love those moments best that react to things that just help to make the world feel more organic, like remembering that Shadowheart likes night orchids and then being able to gift her one or small things like Gale explaining his condition by comparing it to vampirism for Avatar-Astarion. Or things that anticipate choices that you might not immediately think of as trackable, for example I was thrilled when I send Avatar-Gale on an adventuring ending for his romance's sake, that the letter he got from Elminster recognised this as an unusual decision for him to make. I think the "oh that actually works?" thrill is great with me.

And I think the banter is pretty great. The romance banter even creates little stories for some of them. For Gale it's that he stresses out over the romance and puts his foot in it or gets a bit cringe during act 1 & 2. Astarion & Shadowheart react to this by teasing him, Minthara is Minthara, Wyll is the normal friend who hopes this will all be over soon, Lae'zel gives the exchange student opinion like always, and with Karlach it takes a completely different spin because after Gale searches her advice in act 1, she opens up to him about some of her troubles in act 2. That's pretty good display of group dynamic in my opinion and in a way tells a side-story about your love-interest. Similarly it's cool that if you romance Astarion, Karlach continuously tries to suss out his intentions, continuing the reservations she voices during the tiefling party.

But I am waffling too. I hope that gets across that I do like dialogue, but I am a bit of a picky eater about it. It should be a little more thoughtful than someone recognising a decision, that can be the starting point of course but some sprinkles on top to make it a bit more extra don't go amiss. Just "more dialogue/reactions" makes think of "content" in the more negative sense of the word.

Of course all of this completely went a way from the original topic. ^^;

except you know there is barely any banter at all, especially during act 3 which is more than a third of the game. Which is one of the major complaints. I dont know how you play, but most of the game after Act 1 feels silent and not that organic as you suggest. The group dynamics end.

I dunno, my Durge re-spawning was very twee!

I think overall the discrepancy between acts, and specifically the drop-off to companion reactivity and banter during act 3 is what makes the more quiet moments stand out so much. Going from Shadowheart practically screaming at the group in act 1 that the Zaith'isk is going to kill Lae'zel if we don't intervene (showing a surprising amount of care btw), to then look at your romantic partner almost T-posing as your Durge rejects Bhaal and dies because of it. Some party members have more extensive conversation, I loved bringing Jaheira and Minsc there for example, but some of the others just express a bit of relief or being proud of you at most, so that can be rather underwhelming. Platonic Minthara even skips over your whole dying and coming back part to talk about how "we" defeated Orin. For the last step of a redeemed Durge I would have loved to have actual conversations with companions involving dialogue choices, as a way to more properly put into words how your Durge views closing the door on their Bhaal chapter for good.

And there are other spots where a lack of reactivity really stands out, like meeting Kressa as Durge in the Mind Flayer Colony and hearing all she has to say about us and what's been done to us. It reveals we didn't get tadpoled on the Nautiloid and are thus an anomaly being on that ship at the start, as well as talking about the straight up repeated torture we had to endure during our time there. But then we just kill her and pretend that conversation never happened.

There are also other moments where there is an initial response, but no actual follow-up or consequence and that can also feel odd. Meeting Gortash at the coronation as Durge and having Karlach along brought out an understandable and emotional response, after which she says she doesn't want to talk to us right now and needs time to process. I fully expected her to be out of the party and having a follow-up conversation during a long rest to hash things out with her. However, she instead stays in the party and if you immediately click on her again, not giving her time to process, she'll just give her standard greeting instead.

Another moment that comes to mind is where a penultimate step in a series of quests getting more attention from your active companions than actually finishing the quest series off with a literal bag. After the Iron Throne everyone of the active companions has something to say about what you just went through. However, actually blowing up Steel Watch Foundry and finally being rid of the Steel Watch and a huge chunk of what made Gortash a threat goes by like it never happened. Not

All in all I'm also not necessarily one who'd want dialogue to happen for the sake of there being dialogue or the need to fill quieter moments with someone speaking just for the sake of there not being silence. However, when there is so much reactivity to smaller, less important things early, to then later having some huge events at most getting a one-liner or even completely being ignored, that really stands out.

That's why my approach for act 3 now is to rescue Minsc as early as possible, pretty much always bring Jaheira and Minsc along everywhere I go, and then as a third bring along any companion that I'm currently doing their relevant quests for. And of course when rescuing Minsc and entering the sewers for the first time, make sure I have the right people in my party so that Orin can babysit Halsin. Jaheira and Minsc have so much more to say about many events, like the House of Grief with Viconia and being a devil and angel on the shoulder on killing her or not, or of course the entire Bhaal arc with Sarevok and the culmination of rejecting or embracing Bhaal as Durge. Minsc had his own hurrah, then Jaheira had practically an entire speech where Minsc also chimed in again. Then there's Jaheira's home where Minsc has a lot of extra comments of course.

All the OG companions at that point feel largely detached from anything not concerning their direct companion quest and the lack of companion interactivity/involvement in other dialogue, party banter and all that plays a large role in my opinion. In act 3, depending on which companion you bring to certain quests and such, there can be hours and hours of gameplay where they're practically more of a hireling than an actual companion. For a large part when you're out and about, some of them are just hibernating and running on autopilot until you bring them to their designated quests.

P.S. Another kinda hilarious one that is more unfortunately timed rather than an actual problem in my opinion, is that depending on Long Rests, you can have your Astral-Tadpole transformation at the same time as Shadowheart has her hair change. So then when you approach everyone all changed and looking horrible, everyone starts out ignoring your predicament to comment on Shadowheart's hair first. Had a good laugh when I saw someone experiencing exactly this in their blind playthrough.

She didnt do that in my playthrough. The way they designed these moments is that all companions practically say the same thing and one companion is chosen completely randomly to say it. This is also the reason why only one companion reacts usually in those scenes because it would sound weird for all of them repeating the same thing as if they dont hear eachother. Either way i installed a mod to hear all of them anyway for more content. But yes this is the type of reactivity that is lacking in Act 3 most of the time and i have to try to micromanage my party composition to figure out which party members will have something to say in particular situation, which is why Jaheira becomes almost permanent member of the party in act 3, and i bring Minsc more than Astarion even though he's much weaker in gameplay for me.

I enjoy minsc because he's talkative but at the same time he's pretty much just a fanservice character and i feel its a little unfair to game's own original characters that they get so much less to say.




That's exactly how i felt. There is even cut content that has reactivity, and i have no idea why its cut. They could easily have fit her in somewhere. It's pretty fleshed out.




I find it weird that the Emperor still wanted to bang me after i crushed the astral tadpole under my boot.

Another part that is immersion breaking is the whole Elfsong inn, i hate everything about it, but the characters show no awareness of, nor any reaction to, the fact that they are in an inn. Characters like Isobel and Aylin feel out of place there, whereas Shadowheart's parents just stand there in prisoner's clothes dirty and smelly next to a bathtub with hot water, soap and a sponge as well as a wardrobe full of clothes. I'm sure they'd wish to use the opportunity to clean up after being imprisoned for decades and have a change of clothes, but no.

You really crave attention, don't you? I am almost flattered. I had explicitly excluded act 3 when joining the conversation because, it is a bit rough but that is besides the point I wanted to argue. Which is that you treat development effort as - to use a currently popular word - fungible, and I was arguing that it is not. I feel your argument of "the game would have been better if x had been excluded" oversimplifies things and does not account for deliberated cuts for streamlining, authorial preferences, them having to relocate a whole studio under stressful conditions, schedules, brainpower (for example: writing atmospheric dialogue for NPC in Baldur's Gate sounds much less involved than writing banter for two characters that is also supposed to convey something deeper than just a fun conversation) &c.

I mentioned that some act 1 material seems to have been cut to improve game-flow, to which you replied:


Now you say:


My suggestion remains the same: Probably streamlining.

And look, it's fine if you stick to your opinion, I will continue to find it overly simplistic. There is probably no fruitful discussion for us to be had on the matter, so because you also still read a bit agitated about the whole matter, I bid you farewell once more.

EDITH: In an unmodded game it seems to me that act 2 falls considerably more silent depending on your party composition. If Gale's in the group, they are chatty enough otherwise they aren't. My Avatar-Gale runs were also pretty quiet. I'd suggest a mod, but you already came to the same conclusion.