Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Technical Problems Graphics Card

Sorry if this may be a bit off topic - I decided to upgrade my graphics card so I could get better gameplay and only then discovered my computer doesn't have an AGP slot!!! (Stupid cheap Gateway 500SE I got at Costco). It's got one of those Intel Extreme Graphics chip on board things (Intel 82845). Is it worth getting a new PCI card or should I just stay with what I have? The problem is I'm a pretty enthusiastic game player and would like to play the newer games (some which, like Thief 3, I can't play at all), but I'm also a pretty broke game player and can't afford a new computer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> Is getting a new motherboard for my computer a feasible solution?
Any input I could get from seasoned game players would be appreciated.

that's a really hard question to answer dag.
so much is dependant upon the dollar amount you're willing to pay - and there may be a couple 'hidden' charges even should you wish to simply upgrade the mobo.
while i'm not sure about gateway products, i do know that both dell and compaq use/used proprietary cases that would hold ONLY their mobos. this means that should you ever wish to upgrade, you'd have to purchase from them as a 'standard' size would not fit. tricky? yes. crappy? yes.
my guess is gateway is the same - you need to find this out before you move forward with ANY plan.
also, looking at the specs of that model, it's easy to see two additional upgrades - one necessary and one not quite so - just to play most new games.
this model comes with but 128 meg memory. that is not enough to play almost any game that has come out in the last couple years (at least well), and it also had but a 20 gig harddrive. with an OS and any big games (along with their saves) you'll be out of room very quick!

personally, i would never purchase a computer with onboard video - it's just poor quality - but then i'm an avid (to put it mildly!) UT2004 player and onboard vid could not handle a FPS.
onboard sound, however, is a different beast - the new(er) nforce2 and 3 mobos all come with onboard sound and it's actually quite good! thus no need for the soundblaster purchase. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> they also have a couple built in nic so you can LAN! woohoo! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

you could purchase all the items needed to build your own computer for about $700 - $750, this would include an OS (xp home), but NOT a monitor.
you could get a similarly configured system at someplace like abs computers for about $900, though it would include a lot more bells and whistles.

if you decide to upgrade, you should look into a new mobo and cpu (i highly suggest amd for your processor - much cheaper than intel for a lot less $ and same performance), at least 512 memory, an ati 9600 vid card (at the lower end, ati is simply a better product than nvidia - only the top of the line nvidia beats an ati right now) and perhaps look into a 60 (or so) gig harddrive.

also (important!), check your existing power supply. it may not be enough to handle upgrades and is VERY important.

on a positive note, upgrading is usually very easy. if you decide to go that route, you could probably do most of what you'd want fairly economically with a few hours work.

hope this helps a bit.

You should still be able to find PCI video cards that are much better then integrated graphics (at least those in $500 computers), assuming the computer has an open PCI slot and enough physical room to fit in the case. Check the power supply wattage in the computer (it should be on a label on the power supply if it is not included in the system specs) against the requirements for the video card.

Best Buy Finder - Searching Canada's computer stores

Dag,

I was checking out your system specs, and it doesn't look good for upgrades, but processor speed is more important for BD in your case- and memory, I think your system supports 256mb ? I would max that out first, if you haven't already. The video you have onboard is AGP- that's why you have no slot. Going with PCI is going to require a higher end card to compensate for the loss in bus speed, I suspect (this depends on the agp implementation). If it were me I would look for an GeForce FX series, maybe 5200, with 128 MB in onboard memory. Although I cannot find specs on your video performance, I am certain this technology would be an improvement for you, though whether that means an improvement in BD I can't say. Your processor speed is probably your bigger issue right now.

That card is available for about 75 dollars US, including shipping. Keep in mind that new computers that are substantially better in every way are available for ~400, so spending more than about 100 bucks american seems a bit foolish.

My mainboard is an Intel D845GRG with Pentium IV 1.8 gig processor, 40 gig hard drive, 256 mb DDR-SDRAM, 256 kb L2 onboard cache, 4x100 MHz front side bus speed, 2x133 MHz memory bus speed, NPS 160W power supply. Video is Intel 82845G with 61 MB total memory. I could probably spend up to $500 Canadian on upgrades, but I don't think thats enough to get me an entire new computer. The graphics card I was planning to get when I thought I had AGP was an ATI Radeon 9600XT, which I found on sale for $250 Canadian. I live in Edmonton and have access to computer superstores like Best Buy but also there's a lot of smaller companies. I'm not sure where would be the best place to shop for a new mobo and/or video card. What would you guys do if you were me?

For the Radeon 9600 XT, $250 should be about the regular price, rather than a sale price. I bought a Sapphire card (from Genitech) because it had 256MB RAM for the same price as most other 128MB cards (though the core/memory clock speeds are slightly lower).


Intel's D845GRG product description says it has an AGP slot (4X, 1.5V), which is compatible with the Radeon 9600 series. Gateway may have a version of the board without an AGP slot, but I would expect the model number to be different in that case.

You definitely need a new power supply if you are going to be adding a graphics card (or much of anything else). Check the case and see if there is physical room for a power supply about time and a half or twice the size of the one in there now (I'm pretty sure it is just a baby PS). If there isn't, you would have to move everything to a new case. A 300/350W power supply would be about $50-70, while a case and power supply would be range from $50 to about $160. A cheap case is OK, but you don't want to skimp too much on a power supply.

I would check the pricing on RAM to maybe double what you have (256MB is about $80 and 512MB is $150). There may be two 128MB pieces of RAM in your system rather than one 256MB piece, so you might have to replace one rather than add more.
The video chip takes 61MB off the 256MB of system RAM, and Windows XP takes a good chunk of what is left, so a memory upgrade should be noticeable and helpful in most applications.

You can put up to a 2.8GHz CPU in that motherboard, which isn't really worth the effort unless you can get a good deal on it. The speed boost would be noticeable, but probably not significant enough to justify a couple hundred dollars. If you are going to be holding onto that system for awhile, I'd consider checking prices occasionally and upgrading before compatible CPUs are discontinued.


I'm not sure what kind of performance the 82845G chipset has, but as long as it is at least competent, the memory may be more of a bottleneck than graphics.
A new motherboard and the associated upgrades would likely go over $500, so I think your options are to either upgrade the RAM and hold on until you can afford something better, or be more aggressive and upgrade the power supply (and maybe case), RAM and video card. The latter option costs more, but will help your system last longer before you can not run a game you really want to play.

Except for Thief 3 (and maybe other upcoming games) you could increase the RAM first, and see how much it helps performance. If it is 'enough' to help with what you are playing now, then you can put off upgrading the video and power supply. Upgrading everything should let you play Thief 3, though with not much headroom with the CPU (I don't know how conservative their requirements are, so it could be fine or you might need to turn down a few settings to get acceptable performance).

Now I'm very confused about this AGP thing... from Intel's website:

Products Desktop Components Desktop Boards D845GRG
Form Factor microATX (9.60 inches by 8.20 inches)


Processor Support for an Intel® Pentium® 4 processor in a µPGA478 socket with a 400/533 MHz system bus
Support for an Intel® Celeron® processor in a µPGA478 socket with a 400 MHz system bus



Memory Two 184-pin DDR SDRAM DIMM sockets
Support for single-sided or double-sided DIMMs (DDR 200 and DDR 266)
Support for up to 2 GB† system memory



Chipset Intel® 845G Chipset


Audio Audio subsystem for AC '97 processing using the Analog Devices AD1981A codec featuring SoundMAX Cadenza


Video Intel® Extreme Graphics controller
AGP connector supporting 1x, 2x, and 4x AGP cards (1.5 V only) or an AGP Digital Display (ADD) card
Integrated retention mechanism



I/O Control LPC Bus I/O controller (SMSC LPC47M172 or National Semiconductor PC87372)


Peripheral Interfaces Up to six USB ports
One serial port
One parallel port
Two IDE interfaces with Ultra DMA 33 and ATA-66/100 support
One diskette drive interface
PS/2* keyboard and mouse ports
Three fan connectors



Expansion Capabilities Three PCI bus add-in card connectors (SMBus routed to PCI bus connector 2)

From Gateway's website (after inputting my computer's serial number):

Specifications


Features
Form Factor Micro-ATX
Processor Support for Intel Pentium 4 and Celeron processors
400 MHz Data bus
478-pin zero insertion force (ZIF) socket
Memory Support for 64 Mb, 128Mb, 256Mb or 512Mb technologies.
2 DIMM socket support for two double sided PC-2100/PC-1600 DIMMs.
Maximum system memory
256 MB (using 64Mb technology)
512 MB (using 128 Mb technology)
1024 MB (using 256 Mb technology)
2048 MB (using 512 Mb technology)
Single or dual-sided un-buffered DDR-DRAM DIMM configuration

Chipset 82845GL (GMCH)
82801 DB (ICH4)
82802AB (FWH)

Integrated Ethernet Intel® 82562ET (Kinnereth) 10/100 Mbit/sec Platform LAN Connect (PLC) device
Audio Chipset 1981A Integrated Digital Audio codec. (Analog only output jack)
I/O Controller LPC Bus I/O controller (SMSC LPC47M172)
Integrated Video Intel Extreme Graphics (No AGP slot)
LBA Support for 48-bit Logical Block Addressing (LBA)

Gateway doesn't name the board itself except by it's Gateway part number - my computer system info is telling me it's an Intel D848GRG.
Notice Intel says I have an AGP slot and Gateway says I don't.. which is it?? If I visually look at the board where would I look to see if it had one (I know they're shorter and brown, but not where they are)?
And what is the difference between an AGP slot and an AGP interface capability?
I think this is why I was confused and assumed that my computer would take an AGP card.

Other than that, I'll definitely take the advice to upgrade my memory and power supply and see what difference there is. I don't think that my games are running that badly, except for slow loading times sometimes, but of course I can't tell what the potential would be for better performance without actually doing the upgrades! The only game I can't play is Thief 3, and this apparently is because I don't have Pixel Shader 1.1. This was one of the main reasons I was going to upgrade the card in the first place, as I understand a few other newer games require this as well. Fortunately not BD, but who knows about future sequels!

[color:"orange"]Gateway doesn't name the board itself except by it's Gateway part number - my computer system info is telling me it's an Intel D848GRG.[/color]

The system info program may be guessing, or it is a custom version of the board that it can not distinguish from the standard version. Unfortunately, Gateway's info is probably more accurate.

The AGP slot would be just above the PCI slots, lined up with the top slot cover at the bottom back of the case. At first glance 'AGP slot' and 'AGP interface capability' appear to be the same thing, but the latter may just be a fancy way to say they hardwired a chipset into the AGP interface, without the extra stuff to allow it to be replaced with an add-in card.

You don't need to worry about upgrading the power supply if you are not adding a video card. I'm not sure if anyone makes a PCI version of a card with Pixel Shader 1.1 support. Actually, the reason the AGP slot was disabled was probably so they could get away with using a minimal power supply (and it is probably cheaper).

hi dag
you're getting a lot of good advice here.

i have to agree with raze that your correct specs are probably those listed by gateway.
as i was saying before, it's not unusual for the major manufacturers to use proprietary cases and components in their machines. yours sounds to be a 'fixed' version of the regular mobo - thus confusing whatever you are using to read the system specs (belarc, etc.)

as step one, you should seriously consider taking your machine into a computer shop to find out if your case can even hold a standard size motherboard.

if it can't, a place to start would be your memory. it sounds as though you have 4 memory slots and hopefully they are not all full of 64 memory! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> you could add 256 additional generic for about $60 (all prices in canadian).
i could be wrong, but i believe the ati 300(???) is their pci version 128 meg video card. that would be about $225. (ouch. pci is so ridiculous in price!). power supply would be about $55. $340 total.

if the case could support a standard mobo, you could get an nforce2 motherboard for about $80, amd 2600 for $125, 512 memory for $120, power supply $55 and ati 9600xt for $225. $605 total. a lot more than you wished to spend, but the machine would play anything.

you could also look here if you really wanted to do a total overhaul eglobal
this would be the same price as the complete upgrade path, but with a lesser video card (the 9200 vs. the 9600). the advantage would be a much faster processor and much faster overall system.
this becomes even less expensive when you find someone willing to purchase your existing system for $200!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> (okay, you maybe wouldn't be that high! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)
keep in mind that any computer is only as good (fast) as it's weakest component (this is why i seldom follow the upgrade path and simply build an entire new system every 1 1/2 - 2 years)

i hope i've not confused it all more...and best of luck!

PS if you took the above (new) configuration, sold your existing pc, and upgraded the video from the ati 9200 to the ati 9600xt, your resulting system and cost would be here
just imagine if you could sell your present system for $150-200. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your help, everybody! I now know what I should be looking for in my next computer!!I think I'll go with some extra memory for now, as that's relatively cheap. I'm thinking a new PCI card is probably not worth it for the money. I'll see what I can find for motherboards, and also make sure my case can accomodate it. If not I think a new case would probably be a hundred or two.. might be more worth it to wait until I have some more money and just get a new system, cause I know the newer games are eventually going to outstrip my system, but for now at least I can still play a lot of the current games. Thinking of buying Sacred after I finish BD...

I'd say get a new chieftech case with powersupply. Yes there are cheap powersupplies. and there is a reason why they are cheap. A friends experience with Q-Tec is that the powersupply doesnt die alone.. When it went belly up it sent 17v out on the 12V effectivelly killing some of his hardware.

Chieftech cases is flexible & excellent. And they come with a good 360W powersupply.