Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions Things not to change...

I know that there are those out there that lampoon games that do not possess full 3D visuals and pretty lights. Let me say this: I actually prefer the 2D worlds and isometric views. I think that these allow for better environments and feel without years of development in graphics. Nowadays too many games hinge on graphics and thus sacrifice gameplay.

Now, I might be biased because I remember such classics as Baldurs Gate and Ultima VII (maybe even VIII, but the jumping sucked... moving platforms grrr...) and even the Exile/Avernum series and Arcanum (massive bugs due to Sierra's meddling...) to an extent. There was the feeling that this was a real world and it allowed for huge areas to explore. I would actually like to see more emphasis on the 2D graphics as it not only simplifies controls for the player, but also allows a larger user-base.

Morrowind is the only game (haven't played Fable) that I have played that has even come close to capturing those traits I love in full 3D, but it is chock-full of errors (my old comp ran it fine, but when I upgraded CTD!) and is limited by current graphic technology and performance. Now I find myself going back to the classics and reveling in their (seemingly) simplistic beauty. Ultima VII had boats you could steer and I even had a cannon I stole from some pirates on it (it was annoying to re-load and hit anything, but I had it dammit, and that's why it was special). I love the addition of food needed to sleep, though your characters do not suffer from long-term fatigue or hunger, probably due to constraints of time required to implement time cycles into BD.

I guess I'm saying to Larian, please do not join the legions of watered-downs in the interest of appealing to some media-induced hype. Continue to focus on game extras like boats and non-linear stories... I think that it would benefit Larian to think back to Ultima VII before thinking too much about their contemporaries visions. Night/day cycles, logical locations for items (the frogs in the lava are kinda outta place, unless they are mutants), and player freedoms.

So far, I think you have done an excellent job reviving these core values that made these games (the above and DD BD!) so great. Keep up the good work and don't forget your roots. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

I'd love it, if the Larians would follow your suggestion to go back to full 2-D as in U7 - but IIRC, the decision was made already => Div 2 will be MP and in full 3 D.
Kiya <2 D nostalgic>

3D models allow for much greater variety in character and equipment appearance, more varied character movements and better object interactively. I don't think eye candy for its own sake was a major concern (obviously better spell effect, etc are a good thing, just not a terribly important thing), so I would not expect the story to suffer because of that.

I guess there is a time for change... *sigh* The days of sprites, or 2D graphics in games are going. There was a certain art to it. With newer graphics I have seen games and movies ruined. There is a certain grittyness to the older styles at their zenith that allowed for a certain believability. Now it seems almost cheapened by it's widespread acceptance. I am still more impressed when I see worlds that have been painstakingly crafted by hand rather than digitally transfered from another medium.

It has always been the smaller details that made me love a game, but not the graphical. Exploration is a major part of any great RPG. But you have to have a variety of tangible places and persons providing an atmosphere that is believable.

It's rare that I even get through half of a game nowadays, as they don't seem compeling. I feel that it is this lack of freedom caused by modern games as they have a "vision" that they wish to share. This manifests itself in forced game transitions, linear worlds, and shallow characters that simply dole out quests in an obvious fashion. The focus has shifted from the players desires to the programmers designs.

While there are some perks to 3D graphics in terms of immersion, it is almost always in terms of visual immersion, not intellectual. Games, and even movies now, are far too blatent in their structure and goals. It's almost insulting to sit there and have things explained in a bad radio drama style without any ambiguity for the recipient to mull over. Thought is not encouraged and is actually frowned upon. People want faster, dash-in-and-out access at the cost of depth and meaningfull experience.

There is a balance between the two. It is possible to make a product that allows for multiple approaches and lets one walk away with what they want and discard that which they do not care for. But you must let the user decide, this is key. It is ok to provide for those who wish one way, but do not force it on everyone.

Now RPGs are sensitive to the slightest deviation from this middle path. A tap in one direction sends the whole thing end-over-end and it is ok to do so, as long as it can right itself again. I do not pretend to know how to achieve this from a programming perspective, but as a gamer I can see it. I know that this does not provide any actual result in stating these facts, but I fear that such things tend to snowball out of hand once sent along their way. Games can fail by cutting corners needlessly, or by over ambition and poor implementation.

I will have to see where it goes...

The marketing and the industry demands 3D. 2D is only for Gameboys nowadays. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

The worst example is imho Simon the Sorcerer 3 : I've heard that one of the devs says that they couldn't get a publisher for it, unless it was 3D. And the result isnt very good looking. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Well, it's 3D, then, but doesn't sell. I am sure the marketing doesn't reflect on this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

i agree with you lochmacher,

i really loved 2D models (and DD and BD 2D models)... and i'm more than reticent for 3D...
but unfortunately it seems the time for that seems to be past... (whatever are thinking some gamers)...

i hope your right saying it wouldn't have any incidence upon the story line, raze...*mg doubting it nethertheless*... as i understand it (not a game programming expert, far from it, though) 3D is just making the production cost higher (is this really true?... i don't know)!

alrik, marketing is not always right as you seem to notice it but it doesn't help... it makes the rule anyway... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

edit: sorry alrik, @second read i think we are saying exactly the same thing!

I agree with the 2D-folks. I grew up with 2D-games (if you can call Fallout+Fallout 2 at the age of 12 growing up...) so now I feel that 2D is the way it's supposed to be. Because it's 3 person prespective you get a better overview. And because you watch from a distance, you doen't see most of the smaller details, and because of this graphics focuses on the whole, and let's you fill in the details (and this trimms your imagination <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />). Allso, it doesn't take too much effort in order to get the graphics to look good (since you doesn't have to draw every single detail, you can focus on the whole, and you only have to have something symbolic in order to get the viewer to understand what it's supposed to be.) you can focus on other things (like storyline, depth and all the other things that we all like about RPG's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />). Arcanum is a major example of this (the graphics might not be the best, but hey, it works).
And, for the Ultima series (this is a little <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />)(that you like Ultima VII clearly suggests that there is a second and a fifth as well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />) I doesn't know anything about them. It seems to be quite some guys around here who has, and liked it, though. And so, I wonder, what's they like? RPG is my genre, but as I have said, I have played far too few RPG's in my life (so far, believ me, so far). I am trying to catch up though.

Übereil

U7 is beautiful <sigh> the 2 D graphics <melt> - the interaction with environment (e.g. making bread by adding flour+water to create dough, then shoving it into the oven). I liked it very much. It was a DOS game, worked only with PIF in my case - there is supposed to be an emulation for Win XP (as I played it on Win95), but I never tried that.

I liked the story soooooo much, even if U7.2 was a bit sinister (all my friends were dead or mad). I loved my companions Iolo (bard) the 2 knights. If you wanted to cast spells, you needed to find ingredients for this (pearls, mandrake, nightshade etc.) you could have a nice transport over water via your own ship! And overland with your own flying carpet.

Combat was in RL mode.

Kiya

I heard U6 is better, but I never got it - I didn't want to buy the Ultima collection, just to play that one. And I was disappointed by the later Ultimas (8-Ascension). Why? Well, I couldn't play a female ava there.

Yes... here's hoping that Larian will continue making their games more interactive and open. Things like the dishes and food were great additions (wash dishes, need food to rest) and maybe in the next one, tools to do repairs and modifications to weapons with (use the anvil, smelt ore, etc). Another game to quickly mention is Prince of Qin, only because of the effort they put into item creation by the player and the ammount of detail for the item descriptions (historical uses and the like). That aside, I think more games might benefit from such features. How awesome would that have been in DD or BD to craft your own weapons (not like in NWN, those aren't customizable enough, nor Arcanums for the same reason) from resources found in the world? I know that they are not going "back" to 2D, but I think that such features would extend playability (going around looking for those special elements for making a sword just right...).

I did like the idea of the gem bag, but would like more than one in the future, maybe at a reduction for each additional bag (first provides 100% effects, second 80%, third 60% etc) and since the next offering is multiplayer, I don't think that they should really beef up the resistances afforded, but rather should provide a bonus if all gems in the bag are of the same type and more if they are the same size etc... Just a thought.

As for water and it's role, I think a boat would be universally welcomed as it would provide more freedom to reach "secret" places alluded to by NPCs or literature in game. While the spirit thing worked in DD, I think overall boats would be a better way to go (I do not know what kind of Multiplayer they are looking at, but I hope that it is the whole storyline and not either a MM or a module only thing like Arcanum). You could stash your stuff there, sleep there etc. Oh, and travel in it by means of steering it yourself (none of that warping stuff, that cheapens the trip and immersion). See previous comments above on exploration = fun in RPGS.

Still, I'm not too picky... just know what I like. And I will think of more to add <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

If you still have a copy of U7 kicking around, this is a great program to relive that game http://exult.sourceforge.net/. It should work on all windows and unix platforms...

[color:"orange"]i really loved 2D models[/color]

Good 2D models certainly beat bad 3D models. I think that technology is getting close to allowing good 3D models to beat good 2D models.


[color:"orange"]3D is just making the production cost higher (is this really true?... i don't know)![/color]

I don't know either. There is certainly a more elaborate graphics engine required, but then each model should be easier to make than a complete set of sprite animations, and any changes to models in 3D are much easier to make than 2D.


[color:"orange"]i hope your right saying it wouldn't have any incidence upon the story line[/color]

Well, I don't believe Larian would sacrifice story for graphics directly, or even indirectly if they can help it.

There are various marketing forces that discourage large, involved non-linear games:
The dialog was restricted in BD to keep down translation costs; that may or may not be a factor in DD2.
The addition of multiplayer adds some practical considerations to quests. Either the multi-player mode will have simpler quests, or there needs to be a relatively elaborate method of keeping track of who does what, and letting each person keep track of that information (or there are restrictions on how far players can separate, so they all get the same cut scenes, dialogs and quest updates).