Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) wishes for january 9th...

as it would be the day of the election for the palestinian authority and probably the day of the election of Mahmud Abbas aka Abu Mazen (still how he will be elected will be really important) as president of the palestinian authority...

I'm not so naive to think a peace with Israel will be signed the next day but nethertheless i hope it will be a new hope (and not a deceived one this time) for all parties... because both have really all too much suffered with this absurd conflict...

I think the best politcal and economical conditions are unified for serious negociations so i hope they will be... so it might be premitted to hope for the next years...

populations and even fighters i think become to be tired on the two sides...

shalom/salaam (peace)

About tireness, MG, I doubt. I don't like this conflict, but I doubt it will be over for a LONG time. Both the countries are given hatred towards the other country with the... erm, milk?

Übereil

As you are a jewish person i am really happy to read your words with a lot of kindness for the palestinian people. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

Barta

Shalom to you to, my friend, hopefully you will have your promised land back in no time. I'm sure peace will come in time when the next generation grows up with a stronger mental insight in their culture. I hope I said what I ment and don't said anything stupid here. If I did, don't be mad ok?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

hate? ...with the milk?...

hmm i won't say this is entirely untrue übereil but it is more marginale than what is commonly said...

for the most part of both populations it is more anger and fear and remembrance of the past... and for the israelis i will add distrust and for the palestinians bitterness...
but true hate i'm not so sure... Well i'm not saying than hate doesn't exist there but it may be more the "privilege" (if i may dare to say so) of some minoritar group...

Anyway all that is not about love but peace what is a real different thing...

Anyway hate alone is not sufficient for sustaining fighter for ever you know?... when fighters fight for too long they don't even know for what they fight and in the end have no choice except for uselessly dying or giving up weapons... because they don't know why they are fighting anymore... and i think it is what is happening now (well for the last 2 or 3 years)...

i mean palestinian feddayin didn't know anymore if they fight for the destruction of Israel (fortunately this is a lost cause) or for the creation of a state... and Tsahal soldiers for the most don't know anymore if they fight for defending Israel's security or for protecting some colonies which for the most have never granted any positive things to the land... (as except for praying ultraorthodox who inhabits them are not participating to any of the citizen obligations... no taxes no military obligations no works... unfortunately Ben Gurion had no choice except to grant them these privileges)...

well there was recently an hate business that had among other things compromised the opportunities of peace that was the personnal hate between Yazir Arafat and Ariel Sharon... and the saddest in that story is that they had probably both good reasons and less good reasons to hate each other...

but it seems it belongs to the past now...

I'm not saying that it will be easy... there is a lot to do...
and Mahmud Abbas won't be the man of the Israelis (as I've read it sometimes to my great indignation..)... he will be probably a very hard negociator for Israel... but he will be a negociator (and not only with Israel but also with many palestinian fractions...)... anyway what is important he's that these elections would be a change in the palestinian direction from a Warchief's head to a political head... I don't think it would be possible to come back really easily to the previous situation...

Even the Hamas is not really unfeeling this change... curiously and though it is not participating for the presidential it seems for the least not really decided to trouble them... probably for an excellent reason which is that if it was doing that Hamas would lose all its chances to complete its mutation in a true political party...

And Israel is preparing itshelf to these negociation... It is one of the reasons of the recent government change...

All that is reason to hope, i think...

sorry it's a bit long and uneasy to read...

both sides have gone through a lot for sure. i'll put prayers on top of the hope i have for them to have peace. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think the big problem is that both parts have paper given to them by God saying that they have the right to the land, AND they both feel unjusticlly treated.

And two or three years ago I saw a documentary about Israel/Palestine, made by a Swedish jew, who I think have lived in Israel. He met with about 15 children with all kinds of backgrounds, who gave their picture of the story. Very interesting.

And after that I can realize why the Palestinians are pissed at the Israeli. When you on picture can see palestinians (with a whomen about to give birth) are denied by borderguards to pass the border to a district with a hospital (you can see it in the background, it's some hundred meters away. Not far at all), just because the guards don't feel like letting them through (coruption of power anyone?), you can really understand why they turn into suicide bombers, stonethrowers and the like. You don't agree with it, but you understand.

Übereil

Ubereil... understand that if you really think that behind each palestinian there is a potential suicide bomber or stonethrower you are much more severe with palestinian people than many Israelis or more largelly jewish people in the world...

ok you're still very young... maybe you still need to learn that many things are not black or white but the more often grey...

I don't want to enter polemics here but please have a serious look to the history of this region (I think that Womble gives you a very good and very objective internet link about that some times ago <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />)

if things were really simple in middle east it would be known... but please never forget that there was a time not so far were the two communities were living peacefully in these territories... and even after '48 and the creation of Israel when things have beginned (well i think it had begun in 42-43 when high mufti of Jerusalem had been supporting nazis but that is a personal view) to turned bad there was sometimes in these two populations some good relationships... (I'm speaking about populations... not leaders)...

well the second intifada beginning 4 years ago had unfortunatly forbidden these good relationship... I'm not saying that there was no reason for this fight, but please understand that it is going nowhere and has not advanced palestinian cause in any ways...


it seems that even activists of this cause are beginning to be very conscious of that... well it is nurrishing hope i think...

edit: also if you think this conflict is really religious... it is you haven't understand what is a nation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm not saying that all palestininans are potenciall stonethrowers/suicidebombers (not more than everybody else, I have the feeling we ALL ar, just get the right sircumstances...).

And I know the history (more or less good. I would think less...), and I've never said it has got to do with relligion (well, not straight out... It might looked that way though). Both use relligion to claim their rights though. And that is what I meant.

And for last: let's hope it DO end soon. Not that I think so, but still, you can allways hope.

Übereil

Master_Guroth >

Didn’t this whole fuss start with Isaac and Ishmael?

I’m not belittling that matter.
I’m just curious.

Tsel

some would like to believe and make believe that...

i'm not really sure it is a really serious view of History though...

globally the story between arabians and jews was more much peaceful than the story between european christians and jews by example through the centuries (i don't say they were not in conflict from time to time but...) until recent times... ok some historians are revisiting this view nowadays but i still think it is true...

Oh, I understand and hear you there.
Just look at the history between the Knights Templar and the Jews and Arabs.
I do agree the crusaders caused much more damage.

Thank you for the reply.

Tsel

the jews & the surrounding arabs have tensions between them since the jews moved in to their promised land & that was since moses. ok, so that was a biblical account but it isn't easily disproved as their local histories have been consistent with the biblical account.

anyway, it was ebb & flow for them till WW2. that was when Nazis has the support of the Arabs (well arabs hate jews & cousins to the aryans, which iran & iraq have boatloads of, that's fine with the Nazis) & when the brits took over, instead of helping in patching things up, the brits did their usual Divide & Conquer, as how it was back in the days of the Empire. no sheet, that's how the brits rule over asia, by creating racial tensions which weaken the society therefore easy to control & manage.

& no, i'm not anti-brit.

yep that's true in a certain measure...



I'm sorry janggut, i really disagree with that view...

1st) the populations in moses time had little to do with current arabs...

2nd) since the VIIIth Century jews were globally better treated in arab/turkish/persian lands that in christian european lands... there were occasional tensions true but that was still occasional... anyway until 1949-56 (with the bannishment of the communists (and many were jewish) then the bannishment of the jews by Nasser from Aegypt there were nothing similar to what happened in Spain in 1492 or in East Europa from the XVIIth to late XIXth centuries... not a surprising thing that the word pogrom is from yiddish origin)...

3rd) in Israel (not in the occupied territories but in Israel) there are 1.2 to 1.5 milions of arabs (and it is many in the standart of Israel population... something like near 20% i think) who lives peacefully with jews... they are called Israeli arabs and not palestinians but they are still leaving peacefully with jews... I don't say they're happy and content with all Israel politics but even so they are not in conflict...

I think this is really important as it may help to understand that this conflict is not a fate written in marble... or in the Bible...

well it may be for some... not for the biggest part of both populations...

"let there be peace on earth...and let it begin with me".

one of the many messages of hope when my country suffered from the tyranny of martial law, when people were mercilessly killed just for having opposing political views, was: "it's better to light just one little candle than to curse the darkness".

and the result was people power, when in 1986, millions of people trooped to major thoroughfares in the capital city and overthrew a dictator. when priests, nuns, and other ordinary people offered rosaries, flowers, food and other symbols of peace to the dictator's soldiers, it signalled the end of his oppressive rule of almost 20 years. tanks, trucks, and other armored vehicles were stopped dead in their tracks by people who put their own bodies on the line for the sake of freedom.

the philippines may be infamous for a variety of reasons, but at least we showed to the world that it is only thru peace that we can achieve our goals. nothing good ever comes out of the barrel of a gun.

were those words of Jose Rizal? i've read about him in school history. a good man.

@ guroth -> sorry, was trying to move on with life but a bit too distraught thus my poor excuse of info. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />