Larian Studios Forums General Chat Chat (Anything) Dutch ban on burqa

As several on this forum are Dutch, I wonder if you can explain to me the reasons the government of Holland is banning the burqa, and what you think about it.

Okay being an Ex_Dutchman ... I need to ask ... whattheheck is a burqa??
*turns on 1 more tab to google it* aah okay it is this in which case I would think some of the reasons being "concealment of various weapons" or just plain concealment of the person which I imagine would make it hard to ID any particular individual, specially if other ppl start to take advantage of this mode of dress, I.E. the criminal class.

I personally don't think that the Dutch Gov. has done this for religious reasons but more as a pragmatic approach to curb crime.

But hey I could be wrong and after all it is only IMHO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

The reasons I've seen given in the British newspapers are the reasons Mea has stated. Primarily security and identification concerns.

There's something of a debate in Britain right now too, as evidently the burqa is outlawed in some Islamic countries, where it is seen as more of a political statement or a statement of absolute extremism. Islam itself requires 'modesty' not head to toe covering.

I can't say that's definitely true, but it's what I've read.

France had baned the headscarf, so I was thinking it was anti muslim perhaps disguised as anti crime, but I don't know. I read the official BBC news thing--that's all I know. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6160620.stm

It might be, Cleg.

Dutch law forbids religious discrimination, apparently, and this would be a good way around it.

The law forbids the total covering of the head & face, according to what I read, so would affect bikers and other people wearing protective headgear, too.

I'm not sure if there will be a safety exemption or not.

the part about weapon concealment sounds reasonable to me. however to forcefully 'integrate' Muslims to dress down like others isn't the right way to go as this will only drive them more towards isolation.

what the French government did with the headscarf isn't fair at all to the Muslim community. they should allow them to continue to wear that. maybe not the type that covers all of the head except the face, which is not pragmatic at all for school life (which involves some physical activities such as sports). if one imposes this to the Muslim community, what's to stop them to impose the same on the Sikhs which the men wear turbans? or Christian religious sisters who wear headscarf of some kind as well? or Jews from wearing their skullcaps?

to make people uniform physically to address the un-uniformness of mentality is just the worst way to do so. whatever happens to the freedom that is supposedly equally accessible to minority as it is to the majority? Jack Straw should try to wear headscarf. very comfortable in winter.

First of all Cleg, I'm not Dutch, I'm Belgian, BIG differce <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

As for me, banning the burqa is stupid. It's not cause we western people are dressed like this or that, that we have to decide what others have to wear. I agree that it's not fair that if you go to an Islamitic land, you do have to dress like they, when you enter a mosque. Women have to cover their heads and shoulders and arms, man don't need to do anything. But if they are like that, do we have to imitate them? I'm not bothered by someone in a burqa, not that I have met someone in burqa before, but in Belgium we have also different comunities, Siks (fantatic hindoes) etc... Banning their way of clothing will only make more martyrs for them.

Sikhs aren't even Hindus, Gal. they are of different religion & code. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> for one, they are against caste system.

Middle ground....

Keep burqa's legal.... BUT make it compulsory to remove head coverings when entering security areas (Banks etc). Or make it legal for companies to require the removal of head gear upon entry.

Pretty muchly, just like wearing a motorcycle helmet in a bank is illegal in South Africa. Most of our security areas already have the legal notices that no identity-hiding clothing is allowed.

We have a rather similar ban here in Germany, too.

The twist is, that islamic things are banned, but christiian ones are not.

By law.

That sounds like a good system to me, Lady Rain <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gal, it's required for men to wear modest clotheing too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />. Though, it seems the requirements are a bit stricter (spelling?) for women (who usually wears it of their own will though).

Übereil

I'm trying to look it up for you, so I can say I'm right, but damn it, they are as hard to find online as you find them at work <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
But on good old Wiki I found that Sikhs are a mix of Hindu and Islam elements. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

The law has nothing to do with religeon, just like in Belgium the Dutch prolly have a law prohibiting covering your face up in public. (sidenote: the law also states helmets are required for bikers). Personally I find it allready wrong that a burqa has to be prohibited by law since a burqa allready falls under a law.

I don't care about religeon, but you obey the laws of the country you're in, like in islametic countries dresscode in religeous buildings are forced by law, no exceptions. Whatever the law is, how stupid it can be, and wichever religeon you have, the law is the law period.

Tolerance should not be one-sided.

*edit* Keep in mind they do not mean those scarf-like thingies worn to cover their hair, those that have a western equivalent.

Gal...

Jang is right that Sikhism is a completely different religion. While some of its roots may lie in Hinduism, Islam or both in terms of practises, the core beliefs are absolutely different.

You might say it is connected to Hinduism in the same way that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are connected - there's a definite chain of influence from the first to the last, but the end results of each are rather different.

Every religion I can think of right now has at least some influences from those that went before <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Draggy

i agree, Draggy, about tolerance shouldn't be one-sided. therefore the law should be the same as well. since u explained it that so long it doesn't cover the face, i think the law is reasonable.

it's not going to be easy to get them to comply. maybe with help from Muslims who are progressive on the idea of living in a non-Islamic country may be able to help them to understand that 'in Rome, do as Romans do'. else they are free to return to their home country.

Ever thought about such Muslims who were born in the Netherlands? Where would their home country be?

@Alrik:
The Burqa is not prohibited generally in Germany. But there is inequity regarding religious symbols in schools, I agree.


Generally on topic:
You can conceal weapons without covering your face... that's a rather silly argument. However, being ID-able with having an uncovered face in certain areas is a valid argument in my opinion.
I am not a supporter of burqas and other clothing restrictions in Islam... and I think that most women who actually prefer wearing those clothes would not prefer that if they weren't raised in the deep belief that it is necessary. But I don't think that a legal ban in any way can help anyone (except for the mentioned public areas with security issues where an exact identification has to be possible).

Okay, I was not clear enough.

elgi

according to Bush & Blair, it will be middle east. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

well the clothing aren't exactly islamic, rather it reflects the culture where the religion first started. according to a number of Muslims here in Malaysia, clothes do not make a Muslim. there are some of Muslims in my country that dress up like those in the middle east as well. the comments that i gather (from Muslims that don't dress up that way) is that such fashion does not reflect Islam at all, only the local culture when the religion first began. moreover, it is impractical as such fashion cater to the mid-east climate & not tropical (the humidity will kill u). maybe it's comfy to wear such clothing in Europe, i don't know, but i would like to point out that such clothing is not Islamic, it is essentially cultural.

this reminds me of the current perception of local christians in my country where if u wear your traditional fashion (certain body art such as piercing, tattoos, hair of certain fashion etc), u're not being a christian. however western fashion (shirt, pants, short hair, well shaven etc) is never questioned, it is encouraged even. so does fashion of those that spread said religion must be linked to the fashion itself therefore the valid one for the said religion? i think such is a narrow-minded link.

We ban the burqa (sp?) but we legalise soft drugs, I'd say the latter can be more dangerous, but who am I to judge <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />