Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis LOYAL DD FANS:TIPS ON A"HACKING-LESS"NEXT-GEN RPG?

hello everyone
to ensure that larian 1)recuperate their investment and get their fair share for making this great game for us, 2)FULLY enjoy our pc gaming experience(no console interface larian),and 3)make sure that divine divinity 3 will come out as well in the future,would anyone like to provide any ideas on how to make divine divinity 2 "impervious" to any hacks or illegal copying??thanks everyone
best of luck larian

cmon guys lets show some loyality for larian!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />
ok here are my tips:
1)purchasing a random key serial number(random number that doesn't follow any pattern to anyone from making a key generator)from larian's server that is not shared by more than one player
2)making sure that the .exe file of the game is NOT "crack-able"
3)making sure that the game will ONLY allow anyone to play the game after the key serial number has been verified by their server??
any suggestions anyone??

I think it is a little early for such a discussion, at least as far as the details. Today's impervious copy protection may not be all that great by the time the game is ready to be released.

In general terms, any kind of serial number verification would require an internet connection, which would be seen as a disadvantage by many consumers that either don't have a reliable internet connection or who pay per-minute charges. Any interruption between your ISP and Larian's server could leave you locked out of the game (so no playing on plane, etc). A grace period would pretty much have to be added to the verification system, but that adds a potential security vulnerability.

CD verification (at least) is probably likely, though hopefully the system used will not refuse to accept SCSI drives. Starforce didn't have a problem with my SCSI DVD drive, until I replaced my SCSI CD burner with an IDE DVD burner, after which it would only accept the BD play CD in an IDE drive (CD/DVD drive emulators often show up as SCSI devices). I have 2 IDE optical drives, which are slower, louder and take longer to spin up than the SCSI drive.


Welcome to the forum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Well, you've got to be really careful when dealing with such an issue.

For example:

a) Some people tend to use no-cd hacks(or "cracks" as some like to say) 'cos they'd like to keep their cd/dvd drive free. So, there might be complaints if they can't do that.

b) Certain formats of copy-protection do have a certain failure rate. Thus, it might actually alienate the customers IF the protection fails to recognise that the dvd is legit. It used to happen a lot but not sure about now. Therefore, it's preferable that Larian test the copy protection thoroughly before release. Otherwise, customers might flock to using cracks and other "methods" so they can enjoy their legit game or actually return the product.

c) If Larian wants to use a serial key number, then make sure that the publisher ships it. I heard this happened with the Canadian customers who purchased Witcher: was quite a slip there.

I'd still rather vote for old, traditional protection like code-wheels and stuff you get with the game but which can't be copied that easily, like cloth maps (Ultima 7) ...

Of course, *someone* would post these values at one point into the internet, but I thing the value would make more people wanting to buy it - a cloth map for example surely is cool, isn't it ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

i agree with most of your ideas raito(nice post);the issue remains however,is larian going to listen to its fans and make sure that this is a "secure" investment so that the DD series can go on??or simply ignore our suggestions??only time will tell.if larian is going to do nothing then-as a fan,no more,no less-i'd suggest(sad to say)that the next gen rpg is to be released exclusively on consoles. quite extreme yes,but there’s nothing anyone could do if larian doesn't want to listen to us... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

While well intentioned, the original poster is making, in my view, one big misconception (which to be fair, applies with many game publishers and developers too).

Sucessfully fighting piracy DOES NOT mean higher sales.

The reason is that many pirates either cannot afford the game in question (young 'uns with little pocket money, people living in countries with very low wages) or are habitual freeloaders (who would just switch to some other game instead).

If the anti-piracy mechanism used is one that inconveniences legitimate customers, then battling piracy can result in lost sales (note the Boycott Starforce campaign and, on the other hand, the good sales for Galactic Civilizations II which used no CD-checks at all - though subsequent patches did require online authentication which is worse in my view).

I personally boycotted Beyond Divinity until Larian released the patch removing (or rather disabling) Starforce. Of course, by the time they did this, the game was priced at bargain-basement prices but at least that eased my disappointment with the game after buying it.

CD checks can cause serious inconvenience to people who like to play games on laptops (you have to carry your CD collection with you, exposing it to damage, and you have to keep a CD/DVD drive installed potentially losing the option of having a second battery on some systems). Online authentication means the game becomes unplayable if the developer/publisher goes out of business (sadly, quite a common event in the games industry) and also causes problems for those lacking permanent Internet connections or who, for security, use a non-connected PC for gaming.

The only acceptable online mechanism in my view would be the "once only, ever" type where you enter a registration code, receive another in return which you can keep safe and then use for all subsequent program installations. Stardock's method comes close, but fails in that it requires re-authentication when installed on another PC.

Ultimately, the key to good sales is providing the buyer with a good experience. That means a quality game with no intrusive copy protection.

Well, the fact about the DVD drives not being able to function well is also another added issue of Starforce.

I actually read about a report where the dvd drive malfunctioned and when the user tried to force-eject the drive, it flew upon and the disc hit his face. Though the DVD missed his eye by a few inches, the poor sod needed at least 15 stitches. The disc then struck a cupboard located on the opposite side of the room before it shattered into pieces. Talk about dangerous!

My biggest issue with StarForce is that more often than not the games I have with it on have needed patching before I could play them because StarForce wouldn't let me access my legally bought disk as at the time I was using a slightly old CD drive that it didn't like. That really annoys.

I am far more against internet validation, though. Does anyone seriously believe that all computer companies everywhere can be totally trusted not to use this to gather user information? I sure don't! That's without some clever hacker getting into the system and using it to backdoor into our computers, which is more than likely going to happen sooner or later if internet validation becomes commonplace. Anything that compromises computer safe practise is a bad thing, and worse if it can be exploited to gather private info.

Reasonable copy protection I have no problems with at all. Internet validation is distinctly unreasonable, even without the risk of games becoming unusable if a company goes bust - which many do, as has been pointed out already by others in this thread.

everyone:as loyal fans,the last thing we want to see is DD 2(hopefully that's the right name)ending up in torrentz's website showing how many uploaders and downloaders exist for "sharing" it.you can imagine how larian will loose its well-deserved thousands of dollars that way.if you want the series to live on,then please contribute with good ideas on how to protect it from being pirated.if larian has some ideas on hand that it doesn't want to share with us for any purpose,that's perfectly fine,we just hope that larian will take every precaution neccessary to protect its investement... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Without meaning to be offensive, Grandia, I must admit I assume that Larian know exactly what they are doing regarding copy protection with no help or advice from me. They're the professional game designers, after all, and they have a lot of experience by now.

I'm happy to join in by telling them what types of copy protection will put me off buying the game (IE internet validation) as that's a marketing thing, not a programming thing. No company hates feedback from their target audience, and Larian have positively encouraged it in many ways as a quick glance through this board will tell you.

Like I say - I mean no insult to you at all. I'm sure you mean well. But I really don't think Larian need any help on this one.

I think Larian knows exactly what they're doing.

That said, at this point of time, I feel that whatever protection you use, it's bound to be defeated as software is forever evolving and to comprehend a particular system, you often learn by "deconstructing"(aka hacking/disassembling) it. That's how you get an endless supply of crackers, hackers, etc. 'Cos for many people, it's the easiest way to improve their skills.

Unless, the copy protection is something really sophisticated like what some mmorpgs use or some new technology, it's going to be quite easy to break.

dear Elliot_Kane and raito
thank you for your feedback.i didn't mean to play wise-know-it-all in my last comment,just worried about the situation of the pc games industry overall,and the last thing i want to see is DD2 dissapearing to the console platform sooner or later.wish larian the best and i'm sorry for any offense caused <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not offended, Grandia, I assure you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The PC games industry goes through ups and downs, but a lot of the problems now are due to the publishers wanting fast development and the consumers demand for state of the art everything.

The developers are thus caught in a vicious cycle. State of the art takes more time, but publishers are demanding less time, so many games are released before they are really ready. The games are buggy, which damages consumer confidence, so the fans wait a while for the patches to start appearing before they buy games, which slashes the profits made...

You get the idea. Things are looking pretty nasty because of consumer expectation and publisher pressure. A lot of publishers are also very risk-averse, which means that genuinely new ideas are thin on the ground. This damages consumer interest rather than consumer confidence, but it's also bad for sales.

So as you can see, piracy - while definitely being a problem - is not really the main problem the industry is facing right now.

This, at least, is my understanding from reading far too many articles on the subject <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

thank you for your kind reply elliot kane,but allow me to voice my opinion:actually piracy is the biggest problem facing pc games nowadays,please see bbc's article at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6449421.stm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

Grandia: Nah, no offense intended or taken at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Elloit: I hear ya. It's the reason why many different games now concentrate on having water which shines realistically, ultra-smooth and/or jagged stones and why many games are now seriously lacking in good story-telling or even in good atmosphere. The publishers won't pick up any title which is innovative 'cos they seem to assume that innovative games = loss of profit and as a result, the developers are afraid to do anything interesting.

And 'cos the entire industry has been dominated by Sierra(the new one), Ubisoft, Lucasarts(the new one) and a few other giants, this means it's really difficult for developers to start anew. Adventure, rpg, etc., etc. it's all being stifled.

I really miss the good old QFG games. They might or might not have been "true" rpg games(depending on one's pov) but they were really damn fun. And I really loved the flowing style of story-telling, which didn't bombard you with details but instead sparked off your imagination with just a couple of words.

Grandia...

I've read a lot of that type of scaremongering from execs in the music biz as well as the games industry, but that's all it is. 90% of sales on just about everything in Asia are lost to piracy because China is the biggest producer of fake goods in the world and its govt doesn't do much to stop it. They copy clothing brands, watches, official shirts, you name it - it's not just PC games. Somehow the other industries all survive regardless... I'd bet they fake console games, too.

Piracy is an easy thing to blame for lost sales for the simple reason that the amount it actually does affect the market is completely and totally unprovable. For 'estimates' in that article read 'wild guesses' - because that's all they are. There's simply no way of knowing for sure.

But if sales of Generic Game Part 50 are down you can complain about piracy as the cause rather than admit you rushed out a buggy game or one that's too repetitive or too short or otherwise just not worth consumers' time. It's an easy target for blame and no-one can prove you are wrong.

Look at the music industry - years and years of churning out generic and/or rubbish music while prices rose - of course the drop in sales was down to piracy... The PC games market is in a similar position.

Funny thing is, though, I bet if we asked Blizzard or Sony about how evil the internet is, they'd be surprised to hear it. MMOs are the biggest thing around right now, after all.

I'm not saying piracy is not a problem, mind - merely that it's been used as a scapegoat far too often.

***

Raito - yep. Agreed. As with music, turning out a pretty product that is ultimately uninteresting beyond the cosmetic is a very bad thing. Long term interests are being sacrificed at the altar of short term gain. That's the real threat to the industry.

It's why I'm so happy to see companies like Bioware (Dragon Age) & Larian (DD2) not even looking for a publisher until their games are either done or very close to it. It's great that they can afford to do so, and to me it really shows that they care about their product and about their fans.

I know not every company can afford to do that, sadly. I wish they could.

***

Questions to consider:

What was the last game you bought with only a few very minor bugs (Or none!) that had no effect on game play?

What was the last truly original game you bought, rather than something in a series or based strongly on other games?

When was the last time you had to upgrade your already expensive computer in order to play the latest series of game releases?

(Yes, the speed of having to upgrade or replace computers is also significant, I believe. Especially in a general economic downturn. A new computer costs a heck of a lot more than a console, after all. If people are sticking with old games a lot, it could easily be because the system requirements on new games are increasing all the time)

[Piracy]
[color:"orange"]There's simply no way of knowing for sure.[/color]

IIRC during BD development, in a discussion about copy protection, one of the Larians mentioned that a particular game (without copy protection) was significantly outsold by its expansion pack (which did use copy protection). At least in this case, the copy protection companies have an example where a known minimum number of people had to have pirated the original game, and presumably if they were willing and able to buy the expansion, they would have been able to buy the game.

In general, estimates of losses due to piracy may be more self-serving than realistic, depending on the source.

OK, mostly there's no way to know for sure! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Raze, do you know if those figures were sales by the company to shops, or sales at the shops? Would make a difference to the significance of the data...

I assumed it was sales at the shops, but presumably if pirated versions got into retail channels they would not be counted, since the publisher and legitimate distributors would not have any record of them.

Except for the name of the game, I think I've repeated most of the original post. The game was by a small developer who had initially thought sales of the game might not justify an expansion, but they went ahead anyway (for sentimental reasons, rather than financial).