Larian Studios Forums Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis (English) Divinity 2 - Ego Draconis Balancing: Single-handed vs. Sword-and-Shield

Started playing D2 yesterday. In looking at the Skills Single-Handed Expertise and Sword-and-Shield Expertise, I noticed something that looked odd early on in the skill progression:

Single-Handed:
Lvl 1: Weapon does +2% damage
Lvl 2: Weapon does +5% damage

Sword-and-Shield:
Lvl 1: Weapon does +0% damage, Shield grants +5% armor
Lvl 2: Weapon does +7% damage, Shield grants +8% armor

I take it, Single-handed is intended to play out like a weapon master devoting solely to the weapon, and that seems to be evidenced in the comparison of the two skills at Lvl 1. At Lvl 2 however, Sword-and-Shield is doing more damage AND has shield bonuses as well.

Is there something I'm missing here, or does this look like fodder for rebalancing?

Finri

I don't know if re-balancing is required, but sword and shield expertise does give you a much better damage bonus (armour rating is insignificant), with animations that are almost as fast.


From the walkthrough;

Single-Handed Weapon Expertise
Your damage when fighting with a single-handed weapon only is increased by *%.

Sword and Shield Expertise
When fighting with a weapon and shield, your weapon does *% more damage and
you get *% higher armour rating from your shield.


Welcome to the forum.

Finri
Why care about SingeHanded/SH+Shield?

Dual-wielding/Two-handed pwns.

Raze: fair enough. Faster weapon speed of single handed was a balancing element I overlooked. Still, considering the progression chart of Single-handed, it appears very questionably "worth it" investing in Single-handed, even if you like that style.

Kein: I wasn't looking for which Expertise pwns. If some some Skills are great and others are marginal, then the end effect is that everyone pretty much opts for the same fraction of skills in their character builds, which also means that a wide open skill system like Divinity2 is much less open than it could be.

As an example, Diablo2 became the industry model of game balacing and unique character builds, only because Blizzard patched, repatched, repatched character skills and creature stats. At various stages, different character classes reigned, and then whined because they were nerfed or someone else got stronger. But over time, the skill patches balanced the game and enabled many viable builds.

So if Dual/Two-handed pwn, fine. If the others don't, maybe that should be looked at. There are a few skills that could be viewed as overpowered, and a number that could use more oomph. As a whole, the game has a rep for being too hard at early levels and too easy later on. Larien might be interested in solving certain balancing issues in their game.

Finri

There is some re-balancing in the next patch (they mentioned the level effect on combat, at least). Presumably it will be released near or at the same time as the add-on (about September).

If every weapon skill was equivalent, then there wouldn't be any point to having different ones. As it is now you can choose to use the 'best' skill early in the game, or with your first character, and then pick something more challenging later.

Well my main setup is Shield and Sword, I do however have a 1h weapon that does a considerable amount of dps so I use that for any "melee range" encounters and swithc to sword and shield for distance attacks or 1v1 mobs since I'm a mage hybrid. Works well for me

I've played Rohan: Blood Fued. There stat system is almost the same, but I'm familiar of how to balance what I need to effectively play my class. Dual Wield doesn't always pwn...I hate when ppl make that claim. ANY CLASS AND WEAPON setup can pwn given you know how to play it and all that. I also play WoW and know that to be true, any class owns given ur gear, setup, how you play ur class/char and so on.

-My gear and weapon selection so far have been good to say the least since they are hard to find. Finding a weapon and gear for your particular class setup isn't always easy but it's worth going after to maximize you class so you can play it like it's meant to be instead of dieing for no reason.

Well said. I should P.S. this thread with a nod of respect to the devs at Larien for putting out a rich and captivating game. Discussions of balancing might at first glance be seen as criticism, but they really fall into the finer points of a production and are a reflection of that respect.
Fin

I was thinking the same thing when I did an analysis of the various weapon expertise. Single weapon attack was only marginally faster than that of sword + shield. Maybe they can add a parry (i.e. evasion) chance to single weapon expertise in the expansion?

Agreed. The various Expertise weapons skills should not be balanced solely on dps, so that they end up the same. They should offer some interesting tactical options that change playstyle...perhaps coming with synergies.

The example of adding a parry chance to Single-handed is interesting.

Synergies with other skills could also be interesting...

For example:
1) Fatality and Death blow each gain additional bonuses, based on AND while using Single-handed skill (to emphasize a style of precise stikes). As well, Ranger Stealth extends its stealth approach ability to anyone using Single-handed style, to tap into a playstyle that favors an assassin's deadly approach.
2) Defensive Posture adds an ability called Block, based on AND while using Weapon-and-Shield (to emphasize a defensive style). Effective against missile and melee weapons.
3) Battle Rage increases Regenerate based on Dual-Wield, and while using this style. (He becomes a threshing machine who laughs at blood.)
4) Whirlwind adds a small stun chance based on, and while using Two-Handed style. (Massive sweeps.)
5) Thousand Strikes adds a blind chance, based on, and while using Unarmed. (Fits the martial arts stylist.)
6) Bleed extends a percent of its ability to bow attacks, based on Ranger Strength

Other interesting possible synergies:
1) Casting Liftap with a Summoned Undead or Ghost nearby extends its duration timer. (The dead feed off the life energies being released.) Does not affect a summoned Demon.
2) Points in Fireball and Firewall each add bonus damage to one another (for the Fire Mage in us.)
3) You have a chance of gaining XP from Charm kills based on your Wisdom Skill.
4) While Way of the Wise Wizard is active, Polymorph and Charm gain a bonus to level effectiveness. Heal is cheaper to cast.
5) Master Herbalist substantially increases poison damage of Poison Arrow.
6) Curse, Blind and Fear each have a chance of overcoming spell immunities, based on Summon Mastery.


Just some ideas

Fin

I really like those ideas. On paper, they all sound pretty god. Balancing them without making it seem like forcing all players into one mold could be tricky, but on paper, those ideas seem pretty interesting.

However, they're all pretty radical changes to the game, so I doubt that they'll get implemented.

I agree that some of the changes suggested by Finri are more suited for games with skill trees like those of Diablo 2. But if we stick to adding more variety to weapon expertise, I think Finri has some good ideas. For example, adding a knock down chance to all attacks for 2 handed expertise should be simple to implement since it's already in the game and can simply stack multiplicatively with the knock down chance of whirlwind when the skill is executed. The same can be said for adding a stun/blind chance to unarmed expertise which can add a lot to those role playing as a martial artist.

While we are at it, how about the following bonus effects for the remaining weapon expertise so that no one feels left out
Ranger strength: adds a chance to pierce
Dual wield: damage slightly increases with each successive strike

If single handed style have more atk spd...
maybe more damage if combining w/ crit chance & bleed ??

I didn't do any comparisons of the damage per second of the two skills, but you can easily build effective characters using either.


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