Larian Studios Forums Divine Divinity (English) General Bitter Praise

Bitter Praise

I should begin by congratulating Larian Studios for assembling such professional work teams.
The sound effects are perfect and the narrations are very well done.
On the other hand, I find the ambient sounds good enough but could be better.
Generally speaking the sound and music creation team did a very good job.

Then I should emphasize the praise for the graphics team who did an overdone job, and in fact the background and the characters including the animation of each character are superb.
I may not blame the graphics department for producing countless objects that are confusing tiresome and unnecessary because it is a GAME DESINE mistake.

The programming seems to be successful to handle code and data in the range of 2.6 G bytes!
The performance on my fast laptop is quite satisfactory and I can live with the systematic and predictable crash of the system. Devine Divinity is such a memory-hungry game that crashing after playing for eight continuous hours should be quite forgivable.

The bitter part of criticism goes to the amateurish and very poor story line in combination with the bad game design.

To explain to you my reasoning behind my technical verdict I shall make a clear list.

1- In combat, the enemy characters drop weapons and money implying that the hero should collect objects and items to use in the game and build a fortune. Now this concept is agreeable for a survival thief but absolutely intolerable for a divine mage or a divine warrior with ethics who would not even think of lock picking or investigating inside a house without permission. Yet we find that the story line forces the main character to join the thieves’ guild to get the holy dagger from Rob’s book!

2- The randomisation of the charm quality and the extra abilities associated with item-identification is a very bad feature because I ended up with a sword of chaos that was much better than the holy sword called the Nobleman’s sword.

3- It is quite illogical to build a character of a divine thief that seeks a holy grail and saves people from evil.

4- There is no good reason for separating the mage from the warrior because the mage must fight and the warrior must cast spells, thus the sole option should have been the choice between male or female battle- mage while the thief character could have been a companion of the divine one.

5- If it was decided for the game to build the quality of the divine one from scratch, then the design strategy should have divided the game several stages in which the main character begins with a specific weapon and armour set while seeking a specific better set to be able to advance to the higher stage while gaining experience.

6- Solving riddles should automatically increase intelligence not only experience points and eating food should increase strength. The mileage the character walks should increase stamina accordingly and proportionally while running and combat increases the value of agility.

7- Smashing skeletons with a hammer is quite imaginable but killing a skeleton with a dagger is ridiculous.
8- Weapons could have been set up to be appropriate to each stage. In Aleroth dungeons a war hammer is most agreeable while an axe is perfect for killing Orcs.
9- Dragons and flying enemies are best hunted with a bow of special qualities and I could never put my hand on an Elvin magical bow; even the Bow of Hilfin was not classified as an Elvin bow and it does not get the special damage enhancements that melee weapons get!

10- Imps are best hunted by a ranged weapon with high destructive enhancements such as poison and fire or explosives but the holy weapon is restricted to being a sword or a dagger!

11- The magic spell of hell-spikes is a must use with some characters because targeted attack is impossible!

12- Many quests are unfounded and corrupt the story line.

13- Levers and keys are quite randomly distributed and no clever hints are given to look for them in logically placed locations or information related quests.

14- The Larian armour is a cute idea but very amateurish and spoils the quality of the game.

15- The story should have been about the building of a character or developing a divine knight in shining armour. Thus, the main character could have started out as an apprentice of alchemy as a boy or girl, then develop that character by a critical even that forces it to work as a helper in repairing weapons and during such a time listen and learn the tongue of traders. A key event later in the story forces the hero to behave as a defender that is being watched by the gods who decide to mark the hero for divinity service. Next the training of using melee weapons should begin under the guidance of a tutor with alternative training and testing by missions. When the missions are complete, the hero ends up with better armour and weapons for a higher stage. An Elvin companion could be the ranged weapon tutor at such a stage, and when the initiation is complete a senior mage comes in the story to set the hero for the greater quests.

16- The armour of the dragon is the most fabulous idea in the game while the treasure hunt is quite unfounded. The armour of the dragon should be preset with the highest armour value and it should be a must before facing the Lord of Lies.

17- The hero was forced to cheat his Elvin beloved by forging a copy of the amulet rather than finding the real one and the forged amulet does not look anything like the picture given!

18- The transportation pyramids are some kind of cure to the very bad story line because the hero is forced to occupy a house by force and use it as a store for stolen items and dropped money as well as a place to sleep to restore health and manna.

19- The cumbersome and unfounded travelling between cities, forests and towns is not a fabulous feature at all. From his home town to the farmlands to Verdisitis then to the black forest and finally to the mountains might have been a much better stage development in the game story.

20- The Stormfist castle episode is the most humiliating and ridiculous task that could fall on a hero forcedly. That particular part of the story is the worst part of all.

21- A bad design point was forcing the hero to report back the completion of the quest to another character to append the diary! Occasionally, the text choices do not contain the ability to report the completion for unknown reasons.

22- This is a “Dungeons And Dragons” strategy game that should be designed on riddles and combat and keeping it simple as a line that escalates in difficulty but this was not a successful accomplishment within Devine Divinity game. Adventure gamers should be tested for reflexes in combat and wit in solving riddles, and that is how the customer enjoys the game. The hero should never be forcedly humiliated because the gamer is psychologically identified with that hero.

In General, Larian Studios proved to have a very professional technical teem capable of producing great software. All Larian Studios need now is a good story and a better game design or designer. Game design is not the task of the programmer or the story writer; it is the profession of a system analyst in the arena of role playing adventure games. The missing task is similar to that of a movie director-scenarist who can please the gamers with a professional sequence of locations, camera angles and scenario. In Devine Divinity, this was quite satisfactory between the healing of Mardaneous to the quests of Captain Mitox. After that the game ran havoc. The healers were acting like handicaps while the hero is supposed to find a cave after talking to a farmer and never before! The hero is forced to pick the lock of the quarantine backdoor even if the hero was not a thief! Finding the three empty flasks was insignificant in the story and finding two cures rather than one for all is rather silly. The hero is forced to have a thousand coins to pay it to the engineer or face death! Why? As I said the game was devastated by Chaos by suggesting the visit to the Castle as early as looking for Zandalor the mage in the dwarves bread inn and succeeding in poisoning the Orcs well.

A very special praise goes to the designers of the imps and their animation. In fact the waste land episode was very good. Unfortunately, the final five mazes, although thoroughly designed, were a riddle failure because they were based on trial and error as well as intuition rather than clever riddles.

Finally, Iona was able to capture and transfer the hero after the castle episode but was helpless at the game end! Another lord of evil froze the hero in the city while rescuing the lizard that was morphed into a snake but was rather crippled in the final battle! Too many design contradictions are beyond enumeration so take those as examples please.

I apologise for my bitter praise but as a technology consultant and a fan of your game I could not but post it as bitter as it is for a better future game.

Kindest regards.

Technology Consultant
EL Sharony Hemet.

i just read your "visions" on the game
Some i agree eon but others i don't.
here is my conclusion:



What do you want? That if you select a mage, enemies wouldn’t drop some money or charms or potions? That’s pretty dull in my opinion. Even a mage need money or items to buy spell books and armour!



If you have high ethics, and want to play the game with a pure mind (which I can understand). Think of this: You don’t have to for fill ALL the quest in the game. If you find out that the quest of the holy “items” means you have to burgle you way into someone’s house. Than don’t. That’s very simple.
Just by arguing that the game offers you this possibility it’s a design fault?
I think You wanted the developers to eliminate this factor and prefix all the quest without doing something evil?.
My opinion is that I like this game because you have to make choices! Like in the real life you can be a pure person, but you won’t get everything you wanted to have. But if you would “cheat” =stealing or being corrupt, you would probably get it too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />



There are some discussions going about the “level” of randomisation of items.
Or that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> should have some fixt stats for some items (like the dragon armour)
But the holy sword isn’t the best item you will find in the game.
In the history of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> there were a lot of magical influences. So there would be more then 1 magical item. Enchanted items like we would say &#61514;
The sword of chaos is also one of these magical items. Why should the holy sword be the most powerful? In divinity you find about 5 very good swords with about the same statistics.(some times this vary)



Is it more logically then to see your country ripped to pieces by chaos, and demons raged around the country side killing and destroying everything?
A man has to protect his “potential” goodies you know! No life = no money
Sometimes people have to have a vision. Maybe the “thief” (but I call him survivor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )
saw the purpose of his life and wanted to fight for that purpose.
Look it this way : lot’s of politicians want to help out the people and they are the biggest thief’s among us <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



On the first part i agree. You can hardly make a mage character without fighting some melee. That would be almost impossible. I played with a warrior and I had to invest in some magic to survive the first 15 levels or so. And I didn’t like it.
The second part see quote on nr 3



Soo , what part did I miss in the game?



I have some doubts concerning the experience points. With you can give to strength or dextery..
This could be more of a fine tuning.
The part of running more gets more stamina I do like. But as an extra way of getting you stamina up.
Eating foods? You already get temporal strength / manna etc. by eating food and potions. Wy would you get permanent strength by eating this stuff?
And the system of doing more things of that type gets better result in this skill. It has potential



Killing a skeleton is ridiculous <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



it has potential


I killed the imps bare handed until they vanished to dust.
But there are other weapons in the game then the holy item
Why the larians chooses sword/dagger/amulet I don’t’ know. But I don’t dislike it…





No you can FIND all the quest you want. In the beginning there were some “questbreakers” quest you couldn’t finished if you made a mistake. But these were fixt in the patch. But corrupt the story line? I don’t think so.



I has that problem also in the beginning you find a key but didn’t know were it fits. At the end I had a bunch of keys.
But later I founded out that you have to find in the neighbour hood of the key. You will find a chest or some house with a keyhole.


it would be better if you found a wizard in that cave who enchanted your silver armor , yes.
But the easteregg area wasn’t that bad, except for linking it with the armour quest.



Nice idea, some other people and I have some of the same ideas.
Like more guilds were you can evolve your character in.



I think a fixt stat would be nice (like a set item in diablo2)



Soo you married a blonde elf ?



I don’t agree on the very bad story line
As I read your criticism, I didn’t find much weight to support your claims…



When you going trough the lands of rivellon. Some parts of the land are mutch more difficult then others. So normaly you would end up in verdistis first and then visiting the dark forrest.



this has you learned how powerfull you may be , your only human.
I didn’t like the dictating manners of that little brat janus also.. but it was a nice touch of the larians to make you hate the lord of chaos even more <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



Yes I was angry too , especially with the dishwashing quest.
But then again , thinking we are god isn’t a good thing also isn’t?

The game is huge. To be perfect is impossible. There were ofcours a lot of things to consider. But that didn’t change the fact it was a Major achievement for the Larians to make a title that could stand besides the great RPG’s.
Even a greater achievement if you know the staff was not that big ! and the game didn’t get more devellop time from CDV
And with the proper feedback on the forum, the larians will l develop there next generation games to fine tune it to the fans.

But saying that the game designer is totally incompetent tsss….

"I may not blame the graphics department for producing countless objects that are confusing tiresome and unnecessary because it is a GAME DESINE mistake."

So the only items you should be able to interact with are ones essential to the game? I would prefer more interaction and more uses for some items.


"1- In combat, the enemy characters drop weapons and money"

As a divine warrior, I had no ethical problems joining the thieves' guild (an optional quest), or collecting loot.


"2- The randomisation of the charm quality..."

Most people really like this, since it increases the replay value of the game. There should be some items with set values (or a narrower range) to ensure the items gotten from longish quests are not poor quality, so you are not forced to re-load to get a good item.


"3- It is quite illogical to build a character of a divine thief that seeks a holy grail and saves people from evil."

Stealing from somebody is one thing, leaving them transformed as a cow for the rest of their life is another. However, if you don't think any thief can have a sense of honour (or desire for rewards), this is not a required quest.


"4- There is no good reason for separating the mage from the warrior..."

There are differences between classes. I don't have a problem with the open skill system, though a few people have wished for either higher requirements or penalties for learning skills outside your class, or a strict class-only skill system.


"5- ...the main character begins with a specific weapon and armour set while seeking a specific better set to be able to advance to the higher stage while gaining experience."

That would be very, very linear as well as boring. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />


"6- Solving riddles should automatically increase intelligence not only experience points and eating food should increase strength. The mileage the character walks should increase stamina accordingly and proportionally while running and combat increases the value of agility."

Very good ideas. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> However, I don't think food should raise strength. Fighting while running could increase your offense and decrease your defense. Maybe walking around encumbered could raise your strength.


"7- Smashing skeletons with a hammer is quite imaginable but killing a skeleton with a dagger is ridiculous."

True, unless you aim for the joints. Perhaps the Larians did not want (or did not have time) to implement that level of detail.


"8- Weapons could have been set up to be appropriate to each stage. In Aleroth dungeons a war hammer is most agreeable while an axe is perfect for killing Orcs."

You already have the option of switching weapons. I wouldn't want to be forced to use specific weapons in certain areas.


"9- Dragons and flying enemies are best hunted with a bow of special qualities.."

There are also few high quality consistently-in-the-game staves or maces.


"10- Imps are best hunted by a ranged weapon..."

I found them easy to take out with my sword. Flash attack could have eliminated the little bit of chasing I had to do.


"11- The magic spell of hell-spikes is a must use with some characters"

I got along fine without it, though it is one of the more effective skills (physical damage can not be resisted).


"12- Many quests are unfounded and corrupt the story line."

Those are called side quests, and more is better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> A strict story line series of quests would be very linear.


"13- Levers and keys are quite randomly distributed and no clever hints"

They are usually close to what they open, and easy enough to find if you are looking.


"14- The Larian armour is a cute idea but very amateurish and spoils the quality of the game."

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" /> I liked the easter egg area.


"15- The story should have been about the building of a character or developing a divine knight in shining armour."

Sounds very linear... this could work for the start of the game to setup the plot and act as a tutorial, but I wouldn't want to play the whole game like that.


"16- The armour of the dragon is the most fabulous idea in the game while the treasure hunt is quite unfounded."

So the armour should just be handed to you at some point? It should have more consistent stats, but I don't think it should be required. What about a mage without the strength requirements who is using mithril armour?


"17- The hero was forced to cheat his Elvin beloved..."

Yes, that sucked. I never actually looked at the necklace in my inventory.


"18- The transportation pyramids are some kind of cure to the very bad story line because the hero is forced to occupy a house by force"

There are many abandoned houses, assuming you do not want to take Joram up on his offer to stay as long as you like. You can also just leave you stuff on the ground, perhaps around a teleporter pad.


"19- The cumbersome and unfounded travelling between cities, forests and towns is not a fabulous feature at all."

You mean the non-linearity?


"20- The Stormfist castle episode is the most humiliating and ridiculous task that could fall on a hero forcedly. That particular part of the story is the worst part of all."

So insult Janus, et al whenever you get the chance. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> It is unreasonable to expect him not to try something to curb your good deeds.


"21- A bad design point was forcing the hero to report back the completion of the quest to another character to append the diary!"

If you agree to do something for someone, shouldn't you tell them when you are done, even if you don't have to bring back an item or information?


"22- This is a “Dungeons And Dragons” strategy game that should be designed on riddles and combat and keeping it simple as a line that escalates in difficulty..."

That might have kept my interest for a weekend, possibly a week. Maybe, if I took enough breaks, I could have even finished the game if it was setup like that.


"the hero is supposed to find a cave after talking to a farmer and never before!"

True, the game should be much more flexible about doing quests out of order.


"The hero is forced to pick the lock of the quarantine backdoor even if the hero was not a thief!"

You can get the key from Lain (something like that) in the poor quarter.


"Finding the three empty flasks was insignificant in the story and finding two cures rather than one for all is rather silly."

The flasks were how the poison was delivered; they add atmosphere. The two cure potions was intended to demonstrate that sometimes tough choices have to be made and you can not always help everyone.


"The hero is forced to have a thousand coins to pay it to the engineer or face death!"

Or face a tough fight... though there could have been a note or something before meeting the engineer warning of his desire to be paid.


"As I said the game was devastated by Chaos by suggesting the visit to the Castle as early as looking for Zandalor the mage in the dwarves bread inn and succeeding in poisoning the Orcs well."

There were enough clues around about the old duke's murder, harsh punishment for petty crimes, Zandalor disappearing etc. that I knew Janus was evil and suspected some kind of difficulty once I entered the castle. Maybe there should have been a level requirement to enter the castle, or a more explicit warning.


"In fact the waste land episode was very good."

I found it a little long and boring, though I was in a hack-and-slash mood when I started off, so it was a nice change of pace for awhile.


"I apologise for my bitter praise but as a technology consultant and a fan of your game I could not but post it as bitter as it is for a better future game."

You do not have to apologize for your opinion; much of the criticism of Divinity went into improving Riftrunner. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

nice feedback raze, and bean.....and you too... DAD! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

excellent, i agree on some points, but i tend to agree mostly with raze's reply, that was well done! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> all good reading!

[DAD_2]
Hi RAZE.

[DAD_1]
"I may not blame the graphics department for producing countless objects that are confusing tiresome and unnecessary because it is a GAME DESINE mistake."

[RAZE_1]
So the only items you should be able to interact with are ones essential to the game? I would prefer more interaction and more uses for some items.

[DAD_2]
That was not the point I made. The way it is done, somehow influences the MC ( you, the player) to collect an endless assortment of items inside your inventory for selling them later to get enough money to buy a high quality item needed for higher level and difficult combat. You might even want to “teleport” by pyramid while selling your hundreds of items from within a shop to only finish the silly task of buying a good weapon, is that the main activity you really wish to spend your weekend doing? So what I am saying, not as a fan of the game but as a technical expert, is that THIS particular design concept is absolutely unnecessary. So technically speaking, it is the “Trade, Identify, Repair” interface concept that I do not find particularly interesting. I do understand that some people would enjoy trading, repairing and identifying, (whatever that means), but as a professional I do not find it particularly being a fabulous feature of the game.
You see, the “durability” value of a weapon is what makes repairing come in, and if you cannot repair by skill then you have to pay for it as in real life. Now take all this set of concepts out of the game and live without a durability number or a requirement of repair and the skill itself and imagine the paradise of focusing on the quests. The same thing applies to that “Identify” feature; it is absolutely unnecessary for the game and we call it “The Over-Featuritis Disease”. (BTW, I teach programming and system analysis too).
Take away the whole idea of buying weapons or selling them and live without gold coins and the need of collecting gold coin droppings. Find or make potions, and find strategic weapons then keep them in your non crowded inventory. Design the game in such a way that makes a specific weapon more effective against a specific class of enemy and THAT should be your better choice as a combat pretext. What joy is there in sorting out hundreds of items in your inventory or selling them to buy what you finally need if you had had what you needed from a well earned prise of a quest?

[DAD_1]
"1- In combat, the enemy characters drop weapons and money"

[RAZE_1]
As a divine warrior, I had no ethical problems joining the thieves' guild (an optional quest), or collecting loot.

[DAD_2]
It is not a matter of ethics here, but rather the game concept consistency.
You do lose reputation points by joining the thieves’ guild and dogs begin chasing you as an enemy.
Now why should a survivor (thief) lose points by joining his favourite guild, and why do dogs change their minds after you join! If you try to kill the thieves inside their guild you shall lose ten points from reputation.
A thief with level five of lock picking cannot pick the lock of a game critical door! It is all inconsistency that I am criticising here. That is why I find collecting dropped items agreeable with a greedy thief but not agreeable with a holy knight in shining armour when it is a constant feature of the game. Yes, the holy knight may collect some strategic items but do not force such a character to become vacuum cleaner.

[DAD_1]
"2- The randomisation of the charm quality..."

[RAZE_1]
Most people really like this, since it increases the replay value of the game. There should be some items with set values (or a narrower range) to ensure the items gotten from longish quests are not poor quality, so you are not forced to re-load to get a good item.

[DAD_2]
I do not see what is so cool about having to sleep or to drink a potion after you repair your weapon because it was charmed with a very large vitality and a very large manna stones! Once you take off that charmed item to repair it your maximum vitality and manna is automatically modified and wearing that charmed item again expands the maximum and you lose your previous vitality and manna magnitudes. It is all bad design and inconsistent concepts RAZE. It only makes the game look technically bad whether you claim that it increases the replay or not.

[DAD_1]
"3- It is quite illogical to build a character of a divine thief that seeks a holy grail and saves people from evil."

[RAZE_1]
Stealing from somebody is one thing, leaving them transformed as a cow for the rest of their life is another. However, if you don't think any thief can have a sense of honour (or desire for rewards), this is not a required quest.

[DAD_2]
I am talking about inconsistency again dear RAZE.
Are you supporting the game on teaching young gamers that steeling is not evil?
If you do agree that steeling is evil then I think you should reconsider the meaning of consistency.
Robin Hood or (robbing hood) was a revolutionist who believed that the rich were exploiting the poor and attacked them in robbery to redistribute the wealth among the poor. It is not the same thing as a survivor.
Games could be very dangerous psychological tools if they were not carefully designed.
Aladdin and the lantern as well as many Arabian Nights’ stories are classified as dangerous literature from an ethical point of view. The mere words do not fit together RAZE, a divine-thief or a divine-whore are oxymoron combinations.

[DAD_1]
"4- There is no good reason for separating the mage from the warrior..."

[RAZE_1]
There are differences between classes. I don't have a problem with the open skill system, though a few people have wished for either higher requirements or penalties for learning skills outside your class, or a strict class-only skill system.

[DAD_2]
You have no problems with tens of (passive) skills showing up in your selection tablet covering your screen!
The design concept of reaching an experience level through “kills” after which you may learn bless is definitely ridiculous. Being taught the skill of blessing spells after saving a child from a vampire is absolutely wonderful. The more you fight with a sword the higher your skill with swords is quite reasonable, but selecting a higher skill in bow arching after gaining points by sword fighting seems to be acceptable for you.

[DAD_1]
"5- ...the main character begins with a specific weapon and armour set while seeking a specific better set to be able to advance to the higher stage while gaining experience."

[RAZE_1]
That would be very, very linear as well as boring.

[DAD_2]
So it must have been quite boring for you to start out in DD with a chair leg with which you smashed skeletons. I hope you did not steel from Lanilor’s house while he was frozen or from George while he shows you his plant to get a better weapon to begin with. I think that giving that weapon to you by your mentor is much better than teaching you how to steel it, don’t you agree oh divine one?


[DAD_1]
"6- Solving riddles should automatically increase intelligence not only experience points and eating food should increase strength. The mileage the character walks should increase stamina accordingly and proportionally while running and combat increases the value of agility."

[RAZE_1]
Very good ideas. However, I don't think food should raise strength. Fighting while running could increase your offense and decrease your defense. Maybe walking around encumbered could raise your strength.

[DAD_2]
Food and activity builds the muscles in real life so why cannot they do the same in a game!
Offence is measured from the fact of initiative attacks rather than being a response to aggression stimuli while defence is inseparable from armour and the skill of using a shield.
The system of status in Devine Divinity leads to role playing dissociation of feedback and that is a very bad game design problem. It is based on random luck rather than earning the status through performance.

[DAD_1]
"7- Smashing skeletons with a hammer is quite imaginable but killing a skeleton with a dagger is ridiculous."

[RAZE_1]
True, unless you aim for the joints. Perhaps the Larians did not want (or did not have time) to implement that level of detail.
[DAD_2]
The graphics department team was definitely tortured beyond that level of details.
The game designer saw that a dagger had a fixed damage with an average value of ten while a paddle had a fixed damage average value of five regardless of what is being hit by whom or where.


[DAD_1]
"8- Weapons could have been set up to be appropriate to each stage. In Aleroth dungeons a war hammer is most agreeable while an axe is perfect for killing Orcs."

[RAZE_1]
You already have the option of switching weapons. I wouldn't want to be forced to use specific weapons in certain areas.

[DAD_2]
I never disputed switching weapons. I only suggested the timing of introducing a new weapon to enjoy learning the differences. This reminds me of the redundant vampire issue. The one that was in the cave was quite sufficient to be the same one who killed George (as could be discovered by hints) an herb in the cave and through clever conversation. That vampire should have been killed by a silver dagger poisoned with garlic and charmed with manna drain for example to be agreeable with mythology. Naturally you may choose another weapon and die. The vampire of Verdisitis was absolutely redundant and boring.
You are forced to choose to use any weapon with which you may win because if you loose you have to reload the last saved game.

[DAD_1]
"9- Dragons and flying enemies are best hunted with a bow of special qualities..”

[RAZE_1]
There are also few high quality consistently-in-the-game staves or maces.


[DAD_1]
"10- Imps are best hunted by a ranged weapon..."

[RAZE_1]
I found them easy to take out with my sword. Flash attack could have eliminated the little bit of chasing I had to do.

[DAD_2]
One imp at a time is fine with bare hands of the divine one, but when you are surrounded by twenty spider riders spitting poison from afar you bet you run in circles. My point is clear and simple that a bow is perfect for outdoors Aleroth and waste land. Bows and their qualities were neglected and the only bow I loved was HILFIN that I took from GAVARANAEL as a reward for rescuing his daughter. But this comes too late in the game. I played DD tens of times bet less than a hundred times of course and I assure you that an Elvin bow could have been my choice with the female enchantress while maximizing her agility and dexterity.
You can take out mighty opponents early in the game by such a ranged weapon without being mighty but agility is a must. When you help the bee queen against the wasps the best choice is the bow and electric thunder spell because they target a specific target clear and with barriers respectively.
I found the game design to be very bad on many decisions taken and neglecting bows is just one of them.
In Iona’s dungeon first prison I could have killed my guards by electric bolts and took the key by telekinesis if magic was not disabled to force being rescued by the cat Arhu. There are several other ideas on different ways to force the hero to fall in a trap better than that scene with Leona outside the castle. I also wished I had the option to escape from the castle and humiliation through a dungeon hatch and a corridor from which I fall at unavoidable rotten wooden flooring into Iona’s prison unconscious to wake up on her mocking voice then escape by using my magical skills. This way I do not lose reputation and the brat gets madder at my insult. After all I am the hero of the game.


[DAD_1]
"11- The magic spell of hell-spikes is a must use with some characters"

[RAZE_1]
I got along fine without it, though it is one of the more effective skills (physical damage can not be resisted).

[DAD_2]
As a gamer I have no problem with that either; I am expressing a technical glitch concerning the prevention of targeting a TARGET. There is no explainable reason for such a game design decision. Combat is what combat is and cleverness should be tested in the riddle quests not on restricting your attack method.

[DAD_1]
"12- Many quests are unfounded and corrupt the story line."

[RAZE_1]
Those are called side quests, and more is better. A strict story line series of quests would be very linear.

[DAD_2]
I do not understand your point in considering “linearity” to be against game play.
Side quests and branching are very welcome when the game designer abides by the branching rules and hierarchy. I can have a major quest containing four sub quests each of which with different branching levels.
Let us say that we came to the tenth major quest inside which we need to complete four sub-quests.
Quest 10-1, 10-2, 10-3 and 10-4, then each quest has its own sub-sub quests but once you reach the end of the branch YOUR DIARY must be appended to clear your accomplishment non entangled.
Quest cross-dependency is the worst error a game designer could make.
Let us say you went to Leptin and decided to deliver the grain order to Hague.
Hague then tells you about the poisoned fields so you find the cave but no Orcs are there and no keys of any cellars. From there you give up until you INVADE the house of the GOOD doctor and discover his deception. Why on earth do you need to go back to the poison cave to find an Orc that drops a key????
And if you did do that you discover that you have to pay Leptin’s dept to get score and complete the quest!!!
This cumbersome entanglement is not fun at all and here is a better scenario.
You find the cave of poison while chasing out bandits from the area (as a given quest).
You find a very special key tagged with B.B.I. cellars on it (it fell from Elrath there).
You find the Blue Bore Inn cellars near by and cleverly make a connection.
You open the room and find specific belongings with identity incrimination facts.
You ask the inn owner about the one who rented that room and conclude a relation.
It does not have to be Elrath at all but maybe someone who works in Stormfist castle adding pointers to Stromfist being evil. Leptin could tell you that he would love to place an order but he is in dept.
Leptin could offer some quality time with Magdalena or Yanez as a payback for paying his debts.
Jacob could tell the hero about witnessing the serial killer (not a vampire).
The serial killer has a treasure of rings and necklaces taken from murdered women.
One of those necklaces is a valuable ancient one that once belonged to an Elf Elite Lady with a priceless value of 500,000 gold coins (very hard to sell if trading was on) so the hero is forced to keep it.

I am only giving you one logical alternative for clean cut quests.
The story and the game design do have a huge space for improvement but it is too late to say that with a game already out. The sound effects and the fabulous graphics and animations with the very good programming had been devalued by the poor story line and game design.
Imagine that no silly killing ritual was ever needed and the Hero, the Elvin couple and the thief companion (friend) all went to confront the demon of lies with the thief ready to open locked barriers and the Hero in the front line while his Elvin couple a perfect marksman / markswoman defending her / his back.
The Hero would be even more alert to defend his company by being brutal agile and dexterous.

[DAD_1]
"13- Levers and keys are quite randomly distributed and no clever hints"

[RAZE_1]
They are usually close to what they open, and easy enough to find if you are looking.

[DAD_2]
I know that RAZE but where is the fun in stumbling into a key to a door right outside doors?
Entering closed places should be given by a quest that hands the key over or give hints on its place and there is the fun. If that was not appropriate then a thief companion saves the day.
There was no need for hundreds of silly obvious levers within the location and suffice one with a riddle at the main entrance for gaining intelligence points.

[DAD_1]
"14- The Larian armour is a cute idea but very amateurish and spoils the quality of the game."

[RAZE_1]
I liked the easter egg area.

[DAD_2]
With all my respect to your taste that area is totally outside the game.
You lose your teleporter in there which is a very dear price for a silly enhancement of armour.
You talk to the teem that created this game, which I said was very cute but completely irrelevant to the story.
You kill the bugs (debug) which is also very cute, but what the hell does 2002 gold coins and five “Dwarfish-Ale” bottles have got to do with this game? Cute is one thing and professional is a totally different thing. It only leaves the impression that this game was created by a group of very talented people who crave to be known, which is very amateurish and non professional.
Now imagine that we take all that part outside the game and provoke it from options.
Make an option with a title Credits and another with a title “Meet the team that created Devine Divinity.”
The never ending battle between the Evil and the Good is a very nice idea.
Teams being in prison is yet another cute idea that could have been largely appreciated OUTSIDE the game.


[DAD_1]
"15- The story should have been about the building of a character or developing a divine knight in shining armour."

[RAZE_1]
Sounds very linear... this could work for the start of the game to setup the plot and act as a tutorial, but I wouldn't want to play the whole game like that.

[DAD_2]
It sounds right, linear or not. The game could be made very interesting through a better story line and exceptionally clever riddles now and then interleaved with combat. I do not think that that would be boring at all. The “enemy” should be based on guards that guard the riddle and to have access to the riddle you have to fight your way through. How can that be boring!
An ancient easy riddle is a location with a set of mirrors and a treasure item very well hidden; you find a mirror that is misallocated that fits in a well lit place. When you place the mirror in its proper place the multiple reflections end up illuminating the hidden location of the treasure item. There are hundreds of ideas for higher levels of riddles and I did not find any of such style in the game save the magical mirror that duplicates the healing gem in water and the set of dragons that have to face north. I think the game started out professional and then ideas were depleted or a key person was fired. In other words, I came to believe that the game was designed completely in Aleroth and its dungeons by someone professional who was not any more with Larian studios when they decided to expand the game with Orcs, imps, lizards, and dragons.
If you do not go outside Aleroth you can complete all its quests as a stand alone game, right?


[DAD_1]
"16- The armour of the dragon is the most fabulous idea in the game while the treasure hunt is quite unfounded."

[RAZE_1]
So the armour should just be handed to you at some point?

[DAD_2]
I never said so; I was refereeing to the treasure map (four illustrations) that leads you to the Larian-Amateurs. That was quite unfounded and it was inserted to bring you to close proximity from the teleporter to the Larian team. On the other hand the quests of the dragon armour were very poor quests without any clever hints formulated by riddle. The game could have been wonderfully built around acquiring that set of armour with leggings, boots, amulet and rings added; a demon could have been the black dragon and the mighty weapon could have been a very special Dragon Lance that reaches the heart of that dragon. The heart of the dragon magically turns into a gem that augments the powers of the armour for the final quest. You take the heart of the dragon you kill not a gem guarded by a dragon. In mythology, the blood of the dragon falling on the armour after heating it with his fire breath is technically what the dwarves believed to harden the armour and weapons.

[RAZE_1]
It should have more consistent stats, but I don't think it should be required.
What about a mage without the strength requirements who is using mithril armour?

[DAD_2]
”Should be” is as in a better story line. “Myth Real” armour (300 points) is all over the place.
Make the Dragon breast-plate with (500 points) and weight (50 points) then tell me if you do not really like it. There is no point in trying to develop the strength of the hero beyond the strength of the beasts.
Intelligence and agility is all what is needed to win a good dungeons and dragons RPG.
Health can be protected by armour, clever combat techniques and great offence.

[DAD_1]
"17- The hero was forced to cheat his Elvin beloved..."

[RAZE_1]
Yes, that sucked. I never actually looked at the necklace in my inventory.

[DAD_2]
I am glad you agree with me on this.

[DAD_1]
"18- The transportation pyramids are some kind of cure to the very bad story line because the hero is forced to occupy a house by force"

[RAZE_1]
There are many abandoned houses, assuming you do not want to take Joram up on his offer to stay as long as you like. You can also just leave you stuff on the ground, perhaps around a teleporter pad.

[DAD_2]
No, that would not really be sufficient.
At the beginning of the game, the house at the extreme north (where the magical mirror and the leggings were found) seems to be the best choice for leaving the teleporter beside the bed for restoring health and manna. After George dies taking over his house is the best choice to be as close as possible from the gate and the Mage Teleporter, which could have been beside the sign to make life easier.
The story is poor and all the fixes are only consequences of it RAZE.
Do you think that the story was written before the game design rather than being an amateurish development on the way through brain storming; I do not think so.



[DAD_1]
"19- The cumbersome and unfounded travelling between cities, forests and towns is not a fabulous feature at all."

[RAZE_1]
You mean the non-linearity?

[DAD_2]
No, I mean the ridiculous travelling too and fro that wastes time without combat or riddle solving.


[DAD_1]
"20- The Stormfist castle episode is the most humiliating and ridiculous task that could fall on a hero forcedly. That particular part of the story is the worst part of all."

[RAZE_1]
So insult Janus, et al whenever you get the chance. It is unreasonable to expect him not to try something to curb your good deeds.

[DAD_2]
I do not even find any good reason to be given a quest to save Zandalor at all while he is the mighty mage.
Disabling his powers is a ridiculous idea. Forcing the Hero to be humiliated is even more ridiculous.
But if I chose not to go to the castle I may not finish the game.
A much better story plot is showing Zandalor and the third marked one in a flashback clip after a clip on the death of the second marked one at the D. B. Inn when the hero goes to meet Zandalor there.
Zandalor kills the dragon rider as he did before but says that it was too late to resurrect the second marked one because he had a red mark not a blue one (smiling). Then Zandalor decides to take me to investigate the Castle cellars where we find out about Janus whom the hero confronts and kills for killing his own father but the evil spirit escapes unharmed. Iona’s dungeon quest could be a branch during the Castle cellars investigation from which I get the holy weapon and come up at the place where I make the sacrifice or some other riddle scheme. With THAT holy weapon I can free Janus from the evil spirit that posses his body but Janus dies. From thence the battle is with Demon of lies and no need for murdering the council of seven.
The council may be assembled much earlier to direct the hero to seven quests (whatever they may be), and with each quest the hero gains an item or a skill which is critical to the final battle success.
You see, in my opinion, the story is really bad and the game design could have been a lot much better.

[DAD_1]
"21- A bad design point was forcing the hero to report back the completion of the quest to another character to append the diary!"

[RAZE_1]
If you agree to do something for someone, shouldn't you tell them when you are done, even if you don't have to bring back an item or information?

[DAD_2]
It depends on a case by case, but when you are forced to report, then at least the text that pops up should enable you from reporting but this is extremely buggy in this game.
Try to free Penumbra the assassin or take Gandolf’s quest after becoming a merchant’s guild member and see the bugs. If you do not take the quest from the summoner you cannot see Penumbra again or open the hatch in the summoner’s house.
All of that is still beside the point. What I exposed is the technical mistake of quest completion diary update.
The diary must be updated on quest completion regardless of reporting back or not.
Reporting back could be made essential to enable taking on the next quest, not to update the diary on completing a completed quest.

[DAD_1]
"22- This is a “Dungeons And Dragons” strategy game that should be designed on riddles and combat and keeping it simple as a line that escalates in difficulty..."

[RAZE_1]
That might have kept my interest for a weekend, possibly a week. Maybe, if I took enough breaks, I could have even finished the game if it was setup like that.

[DAD_2]
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with finishing a fabulous game in a weekend or watching a ten million dollars movie in two hours.
Secondly, difficulty should be born from combat techniques and riddle solving, not from cumbersomeness.

[DAD_1]
"the hero is supposed to find a cave after talking to a farmer and never before!"

[RAZE_1]
True, the game should be much more flexible about doing quests out of order.


[DAD_1]
"The hero is forced to pick the lock of the quarantine backdoor even if the hero was not a thief!"

[RAZE_1]
You can get the key from Lain (something like that) in the poor quarter.

[DAD_2]
Does he tell you about it or you just randomly grab all keys that show on pressing the “Alt” key all over the game locations and then begin opening doors illegally?
I admit that DD is a good school for thieves, but I find no fun in becoming one.

[DAD_1]
"Finding the three empty flasks was insignificant in the story and finding two cures rather than one for all is rather silly."

[RAZE_1]
The flasks were how the poison was delivered; they add atmosphere. The two cure potions was intended to demonstrate that sometimes tough choices have to be made and you can not always help everyone.

[DAD_2]
That sounds very nice in philosophy classes not in RPGs. This means that your diary must be littered with an unsolved quest unless you pickpocket a vial from one and give it to the third! Is that a tough choice too?
I am talking about a professionally designed game RAZE, and it should give the satisfaction that you play the role of a hero who could save all his subjects, which is unlike real life completely. Life is quite annoying enough that one needs a game to live a life of perfection and satisfaction. Why do I need a game to tell me what I already know and increase my disappointment in reality?


[DAD_1]
"The hero is forced to have a thousand coins to pay it to the engineer or face death!"

[RAZE_1]
Or face a tough fight... though there could have been a note or something before meeting the engineer warning of his desire to be paid.

[DAD_2]
Your suggestion is greatly appreciated. The damn story tells you nothing about the reason of the curse until you talk to the Engineer and find out the entire story a bit too late. If the quest is to raise the curse off the abbey then one should find out what was it first and have the chance to earn the money that he decides to pay. But I do not indorse the idea of money in this style of games. The engineer could have demanded an item as a reward for his deeds but someone got greedy and took it. Thus finding that item would have been a nice branch that slipped from between the fingers of the game story maker.


[DAD_1]
"As I said the game was devastated by Chaos by suggesting the visit to the Castle as early as looking for Zandalor the mage in the dwarves bread inn and succeeding in poisoning the Orcs well."

[RAZE_1]
There were enough clues around about the old duke's murder, harsh punishment for petty crimes, Zandalor disappearing etc. that I knew Janus was evil and suspected some kind of difficulty once I entered the castle. Maybe there should have been a level requirement to enter the castle, or a more explicit warning.

[DAD_2]
Oh but there is. Read the sign close to the gate of the castle. Also you may not enter without an invitation.
That is all beside the point. The whole castle episode is a poor story line; yes it is some sort of story of course but its quality is very poor from any professional’s verdict.

[DAD_1]
"In fact the waste land episode was very good."

[RAZE_1]
I found it a little long and boring, though I was in a hack-and-slash mood when I started off, so it was a nice change of pace for awhile.

[DAD_2]
Oh yes indeed, very long and boring, but the graphics quality and the layout of the land are fabulous.
The Imps’ animations and the sound effects were wonderful and amusing.
As a critic I paid attention to the synchronization of the sound effects with the Impish attacks animation; nothing less than perfect I must say. Remember that this is a bitter PRAIZE.
I loved the quality of the game and that was the reason of intensifying my disappointment with the story.

[DAD_1]
"I apologise for my bitter praise but as a technology consultant and a fan of your game I could not but post it as bitter as it is for a better future game."

[RAZE_1]
You do not have to apologize for your opinion; much of the criticism of Divinity went into improving Riftrunner.

[DAD_2]
The name sounds like “Blade Runner” and I hope that Larian hired some real professional fantasy writer before building the entire game on crap.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepey.gif" alt="" />

Yes, there were bad parts about the game, but no game exists that is utterly perfect, absolutely flawless and pleases everyone imaginable.

To each his own... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

I have one response....owww! Wow that was a really long praise/rant!

extremely,... in depth reading......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

and well addressed i might add! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think the biggest issue here is that the game has limited scope being an electronic product designed, in part, to make money. It states in the manual that this game hopes to deliver to the widest audience possible by being a hack-and-slash and a plot driven RPG.

It also sounds like you felt restricted to complete everything that was optional. The game is free-form. Aside from a small percentage of main storyline, there is nothing else that you must do to complete the game. You don't have to help civilians, you don't have to steal, you don't have to hoard treasure, and you don't have to use skills you don't want to.

The game does have a lot of flaws, though, same as any other.

Item 2b: Now why should a survivor (thief) lose points by joining his favourite guild, and why do dogs change their minds after you join!

Your Reputation isn't your score, it's what people think of you. If you are known to be a theif, people will think less of you. And the dog attacked you because you didn't help the woman with the housing dispute.

Item 3: It is quite illogical to build a character of a divine thief that seeks a holy grail and saves people from evil.

There are books in the game that state "How will the Divine One decide what is good or evil, or will he select randomly?"

Item 3b: Once you take off that charmed item to repair it your maximum vitality and manna is automatically modified and wearing that charmed item again expands the maximum and you lose your previous vitality and manna magnitudes.

I agree that the bonus mana and health should appear and disappear with the donning and removal of the item. Of course, this means you can die by removing your helmet.

Item 4: the warrior must cast spells

Says who? There is no requirement for the Warrior to use skills outside of The Way of the Warrior. It might make it harder, but that is often the case with Warrior classes.

Item 4b: The design concept of reaching an experience level through “kills” after which you may learn bless is definitely ridiculous.

Perhaps you consider yourself a paladin, crushing the forces of evil?

Item 5: If it was decided for the game to build the quality of the divine one from scratch, then the design strategy should have divided the game several stages in which the main character begins with a specific weapon and armour set while seeking a specific better set to be able to advance to the higher stage while gaining experience.

Why should the equipment be set? All that says to me is that you should not have any choice in what you wear or wield. Did you mean something else?

Item 5b: I hope you did not steel from Lanilor’s house while he was frozen

Nope, I took the broken sword Juram offered me and beat the skeletons with that. They gave a perfect excuse for you not having any equipment, the healer that saved your life couldn't carry it.

Item 6: Solving riddles should automatically increase intelligence not only experience points and eating food should increase strength. The mileage the character walks should increase stamina accordingly and proportionally while running and combat increases the value of agility.

Not a stupid idea and it has worked in other games such as Quest for Glory and Dungeon Siege. You could have combat increase Strength and Agility. I think the idea is that a lot of these attributes are interelated. Through a lot of travel and turmoil, you can increase any of your stats, logically. People will often increase the ones they use most anyway. It's taking away another freedom, though.

Item 8b: I only suggested the timing of introducing a new weapon to enjoy learning the differences.

That would be good. I actually liked the idea that over-powered weapons were included at the start of the game. It's more realistic to have the weapons spread evenly, but you have to learn to use them first.

Item 10: Imps are best hunted by a ranged weapon with high destructive enhancements such as poison and fire or explosives but the holy weapon is restricted to being a sword or a dagger!

That's fair. There should be a greater range of what can be made holy. Perhaps you should offer a weapon of your choosing (along with the components required for the ceremony) and the stats of that weapon are reset to a preset unique to that weapon (eg. The Holy Axe is different to The Holy Sword, but The Holy Axe never changes).

Item 11: The magic spell of hell-spikes is a must use with some characters because targeted attack is impossible!

??? I haven't finished the game yet, but so far holding CTRL has solved any of those problems for me. Is there anyone in particular?

Item 14: The Larian armour is a cute idea but very amateurish and spoils the quality of the game.

That's the whole point of easter eggs. They're cute. The fact that it can play such a big part in the game is a let down though.

Item 14b: You lose your teleporter in there which is a very dear price for a silly enhancement of armour.

Why didn't you use it from your backpack?

Item 15: Thus, the main character could have started out as an apprentice of alchemy as a boy or girl, then develop that character by a critical even that forces it to work as a helper in repairing weapons and during such a time listen and learn the tongue of traders.

But the openning movie and some story points during the game tell you that this was random and that you have no idea about you ever being marked. You start as a simple adventurer, not entirely helpless, drawn into this predicament.

Item 16: The armour of the dragon should be preset with the highest armour value and it should be a must before facing the Lord of Lies.

If you don't want the armour, why should you be forced to wear it?

Item 16b: The game could have been wonderfully built around acquiring that set of armour with leggings, boots, amulet and rings added; a demon could have been the black dragon and the mighty weapon could have been a very special Dragon Lance that reaches the heart of that dragon. The heart of the dragon magically turns into a gem that augments the powers of the armour for the final quest. You take the heart of the dragon you kill not a gem guarded by a dragon.

I like it!

Item 18: The transportation pyramids are some kind of cure to the very bad story line because the hero is forced to occupy a house by force and use it as a store for stolen items and dropped money as well as a place to sleep to restore health and manna.

I don't live in a house (in the game). I bought it for the experience, but I don't live there. My stash sits in a broken barrel next to Geoff's Blacksmithery. I don't sleep, either. True this isn't realistic, but adventurers often don't want to settle down in a house.
And the transportation pyramids are an alternative to the Town Portal or Rune of Return. People want these features. If you don't then throw the Pyramids into the river. You're not forced to use them.

Item 19: The cumbersome and unfounded travelling between cities, forests and towns is not a fabulous feature at all.

It is annoying, hence the transporter pads. Linear storylines are quite tired and I think it is great that you get to re-visit all of the people you come to befriend. I'm tired of games where you just leave your life behind because you progress the story. I think it will be a glorious day when I find an RPG with a dozen people that continue to expand and extend the story line into something massive. Each person can have more that one purpose in the game.

Item 20: The Stormfist castle episode is the most humiliating and ridiculous task that could fall on a hero forcedly. That particular part of the story is the worst part of all.

Yup. They want you to hate Janus, but at the same time, realise his power. This part of the game was a bit annoying. I hope it's a little less cumbersome next time.

Item 21: It depends on a case by case, but when you are forced to report, then at least the text that pops up should enable you from reporting but this is extremely buggy in this game.

Yeah, the quest stability was extremely poor.

Item 22: This is a “Dungeons And Dragons” strategy game that should be designed on riddles and combat and keeping it simple as a line that escalates in difficulty but this was not a successful accomplishment within Devine Divinity game.

Neverwinter Nights was the "Dungeons and Dragons" strategy game. This one is more Diabloesque. You're right about the difficulty though. It's too hard to judge where you are capable of going next.

Item w: The hero is forced to pick the lock of the quarantine backdoor even if the hero was not a thief!

Or you could ask for the key, which I've done every time.

Item x: Finding the three empty flasks was insignificant in the story and finding two cures rather than one for all is rather silly.

The three flasks help to tip you off about Dr. Elrath and whilst not vital, are a good story element. The two cures was one of the best things in the game becuase it brought forward the ethical dilemma that faced the healers at the start of the game with the two soldiers. This is a Role-Playing Game, not a means to mathmatically achieve higher numbers.

Item y: Too many design contradictions

Yeah. That bit was a lot of a downer.

Item z: The engineer could have demanded an item as a reward for his deeds but someone got greedy and took it.

I thought the Engineer's reasons weren't too bad. I agree that having short notice about the cash is bad, though. There are clues in the game about the curse. I found a picture of him with the writing (from memory) "THE ENGINEER IS A TRAPPED MAGE. HE IS NOT YOUR FOE IF YOU SET HIM FREE." Okay, in hind-sight, it tells you little of the quest. Perhaps if they expanded the text.

Epilogue

I know it sounds like we're pulling your opinions to crap, but we're just responding with ours. Your opinions do have meaning and merit. We all see different aspects of the game, and I'm going to keep pushing my ideas and get upset when they're not implemented.

Enjoy the forums, and hopefully RiftRunner!

[too many objects, collecting]

"That was not the point I made. The way it is done, somehow influences the MC ( you, the player) to collect an endless assortment of items inside your inventory for selling them later to get enough money to buy a high quality item needed for higher level and difficult combat. ... it is the “Trade, Identify, Repair” interface concept that I do not find particularly interesting."

Repair is realistic, and I don't really see it as being something that can be ignored. Identify is much less necessary. Perhaps a powerful enchantment on something might need a wizard to decipher and activate, but as it works in Divinity, it just keeps you from using powerful equipment before teleporting back to town. That I agree about.

For trade... I don't really want to do away with gold, since I would like to see a shop where you could custom order the most powerful equipment (perhaps after gathering rare ingredients). A bounty on monsters could have gold only being dropped, leaving just purchased equipment...
Siege of Avalon is set in a city under siege (surprisingly enough). Pretty much all equipment is obtained by taking it off the bodies of the enemy. You can carry loot back to sell, but the main use of gold is to purchase training in various skills, and after awhile there is little point in even checking the equipment your enemies carry.

I don't really see one design being superior to another, just different. Certainly too much collecting loot to trade for better equipment can make a game a boring treadmill. No loot could lead to less variety in weapons and the required tactics. I can't say I found this to be a problem in games designed to have certain weapons available in certain shops as you advance in the game, though.

In Gorasul (very short game) you start off with a 'sentient' weapon, which gains experience and levels up. Perhaps a loot-less, gold-less, trade-less game could give you a certain amount of 'energy' per level you could infuse into your equipment to improve it.


"Design the game in such a way that makes a specific weapon more effective against a specific class of enemy and THAT should be your better choice as a combat pretext."

Agreed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />


"You do lose reputation points by joining the thieves’ guild and dogs begin chasing you as an enemy."

Your reputation is based on the general population's opinion, which tends to frown on thievery. Never the less, thieves in the guild are friendly, so attacking them unprovoked is seen as a bad thing. Dogs become hostile after killing a dog or killing a wolf near a dog. I think Lar the dog is always hostile (maybe), if you enter the back room in the Blue Boar inn after the dwarf leaves.


"A thief with level five of lock picking cannot pick the lock of a game critical door!"

While not the only way to restrict access to certain areas until relevant quests or plot developments occur, I don't see lockpick-proof locks as unreasonable. There have been a couple discussions about this, where warriors should be able to break down a door if they are strong enough, and mages should have a spell to open locks.


"I do not see what is so cool about having to sleep or to drink a potion after you repair your weapon because it was charmed with a very large vitality and a very large manna stones!"

Any bonuses have to be removed when you remove the equipment. If re-equipping something with a vitality bonus brought your health up, that would lead to other problems, like being able to heal yourself by swapping equipment back and forth. I agree it is a pain when you have to remove your equipment for some reason, though. I don't recall another game that had a better design for this situation...


[survivors (thieves) helping people]

"I am talking about inconsistency again dear RAZE.
Are you supporting the game on teaching young gamers that steeling is not evil?"

Of course not. I have a rather Machiavellian approach to games; Divinity does not penalize stealing if you do not get caught, so I steal.

I would like to see a game designed with much more emphasis on a system of honour (I have not seen a recent one). Your actions could affect your aura, which at least some of the general population can read. Any stealing would have negative consequences (higher prices, etc). Repeated robberies or murder would be investigated my powerful mages and could result in a bounty on your head or being barred from towns. As a save-the-world game, evil characters could not succeed. In order for thieves or assassins to be viable characters, the game would have to be set up as good-vs-evil, and you influence the outcome of the conflict.


"Games could be very dangerous psychological tools if they were not carefully designed."

No comment. A debate on that would very likely be unproductive.


"You have no problems with tens of (passive) skills showing up in your selection tablet covering your screen!"

Actually, that is quite annoying, especially for a warrior who tends to have more passive skills than active. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't mind being able to rearrange the layout, either.


"The design concept of reaching an experience level through “kills” after which you may learn bless is definitely ridiculous. Being taught the skill of blessing spells after saving a child from a vampire is absolutely wonderful. The more you fight with a sword the higher your skill with swords is quite reasonable, but selecting a higher skill in bow arching after gaining points by sword fighting seems to be acceptable for you."

Agreed, this level of detail would certainly make a better game. It is just a question of the time and resources to put into something I think would be a minor point to most people buying the game.


"So it must have been quite boring for you to start out in DD with a chair leg with which you smashed skeletons. I hope you did not steel from Lanilor’s house while he was frozen or from George while he shows you his plant to get a better weapon to begin with. I think that giving that weapon to you by your mentor is much better than teaching you how to steel it, don’t you agree oh divine one?"

Of course I stole from them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> A gift/reward after training could be a better method of getting a weapon, though.


"Food and activity builds the muscles in real life so why cannot they do the same in a game!
Offence is measured from the fact of initiative attacks rather than being a response to aggression stimuli while defence is inseparable from armour and the skill of using a shield."

Food by itself does not increase your strength, but does effect your general health. In Divinity, defense affects whether or not you are hit; the armour rating helps determine how much damage is done once you are hit.


"I never disputed switching weapons. I only suggested the timing of introducing a new weapon to enjoy learning the differences. This reminds me of the redundant vampire issue. ... That vampire should have been killed by a silver dagger poisoned with garlic and charmed with manna drain for example to be agreeable with mythology. Naturally you may choose another weapon and die. The vampire of Verdisitis was absolutely redundant and boring."

Agreed on the method of killing (a pointy stick should have been required, at least), but I don't think two of a monster type is particularly redundant. Maybe the first vampire could lead you to its master in verdistis, with a couple gouls guarding the entrance...


[Bow of hilfin]
"You can take out mighty opponents early in the game by such a ranged weapon without being mighty but agility is a must."

Agreed; weapon classes in Divinity are not equally balanced.


"In Iona’s dungeon first prison I could have killed my guards by electric bolts and took the key by telekinesis if magic was not disabled to force being rescued by the cat Arhu."

Would you lock up a mage without neutralizing his ability to kill your guards and bypass your restraints?


"I also wished I had the option to escape from the castle and humiliation through a dungeon hatch and a corridor from which I fall at unavoidable rotten wooden flooring into Iona’s prison unconscious to wake up on her mocking voice then escape by using my magical skills."

That would work.


[side quests]

"I do not understand your point in considering “linearity” to be against game play.
Side quests and branching are very welcome when the game designer abides by the branching rules and hierarchy. I can have a major quest containing four sub quests each of which with different branching levels."

The game could certainly handle out-of-order actions and long quests better.
If you mean linear just in terms of little cross dependency between quests, that is ok (as long as it doesn't result in short, simplified quests).
My problem with linearity is referring to your choices at any one point. If you have to deliver something to get some information to find an item to trade for passage to the next area to defeat a monster to get the next quest, that is not very fun.


"The story and the game design do have a huge space for improvement but it is too late to say that with a game already out."

It is probably not too late to influence Divinity 2, though.


[keys/lever being close to what they open]

"I know that RAZE but where is the fun in stumbling into a key to a door right outside doors?
Entering closed places should be given by a quest that hands the key over or give hints on its place and there is the fun."

True. There did seem to be more locked gates under ground that required to give you a shortcut back somewhere after you had cleared the area, or to separate groups of monsters.


[the easter egg area]

"With all my respect to your taste that area is totally outside the game.
You lose your teleporter in there which is a very dear price for a silly enhancement of armour."

You can use the teleporter stone without dropping it. Click on the stone in your inventory, or use the appropriate teleporter icon on the right column in the skills selection menu.


"You talk to the teem that created this game, which I said was very cute but completely irrelevant to the story.
You kill the bugs (debug) which is also very cute, but what the hell does 2002 gold coins and five “Dwarfish-Ale” bottles have got to do with this game?"

An easter egg often refers to a hidden area or feature that is usually trigger by something obscure enough that it could not be found by trial and error or by accident. There was a certain combination of mouse clicks, button presses and the MS Excel 95 help screen which would pop up a window with a 3D maze. Upon successfully navigating the maze and getting up a narrow ramp (not trivial with the 1st person perspective), you got to a room with paintings on the wall, and the one at the end had all the names of the programmers scrolling by.

The Divinity easter egg was not meant to be relevant to the game plot, and if they wanted to be known that wasn't the most effective tactic. I don't see a problem with it, though they could just have easily made it an option after you complete the game, for example, and provided a different method of upgrading the silver armour.


"It sounds right, linear or not. The game could be made very interesting through a better story line and exceptionally clever riddles now and then interleaved with combat. I do not think that that would be boring at all. The “enemy” should be based on guards that guard the riddle and to have access to the riddle you have to fight your way through. How can that be boring!"

Myst with occasional fighting? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
More puzzles would be nice, though I don't know if a puzzle RPG cross would work.


[elven love / necklace quest sucking]

"I am glad you agree with me on this."

Actually, I'm agreeing with you a bit more in general with this reply.


"I do not even find any good reason to be given a quest to save Zandalor at all while he is the mighty mage. ... A much better story plot is showing Zandalor and the third marked one in a flashback clip after a clip on the death of the second marked one at the D. B. Inn when the hero goes to meet Zandalor there."

Zandalor can not be too strong, if your character is the only hope to save the world. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
That part of the plot could have been setup differently, though (such as your suggestion). If you pretty much know Janus is evil and he may suspect you could be the Divine One (or at least realize your good deeds are interfering with his plans), there is not much to explain the lack of confrontation. He may not be powerful enough to act openly, and you may not be ready to become the Divine One, but the plot could use something to justify just being tossed in a dungeon. I did not have a problem with that at the time, and am not particularly disturbed by it after over-analyzing the plot now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


"You see, in my opinion, the story is really bad and the game design could have been a lot much better."

Perhaps if the plot was written as a book, then adapted to a game it would hold up better to your scrutiny. As far as game plots, though, it is pretty good (at least in my experience).


[getting the key for the quarantine area from Lain]

"Does he tell you about it or you just randomly grab all keys that show on pressing the “Alt” key all over the game locations and then begin opening doors illegally?"

He talks about visiting a friend just before the quarantine went into effect. Later, you can ask him if he still has access to his friend, and he admits he has a key to the back door of the house, and gives it to you when you ask.

just completed the game this weekend with my first character. absolutely awesome game, though it has its own share of shortcomings, shortcomings that i think are dependent on one's tastes and one's gameplay style. dad has said a lot already. i would have to agree with some, not all, of his points.

i'd also like to add a few of my own. the part i liked most about the game is starting out my character and the aleroth catacombs. towards the end however, at the wastelands & inside the black ring fortress, it becomes one long, drawn-out hack 'n slash affair. after much looking for each portal stone and then hopping from one to the other inside the dwarven halls just to get that brooch and to visit grischa, i felt exasperated going through the fortresses of each black ring member. and the entrances are not very evident. same goes for the other dungeons when you go dungeon-crawling. at least, they should be marked on the mini-map. i remember playing an rpg whose title i can't recall as of the moment where doors, entrances, exits are clearly located. i won't call that linearity; i call it streamlined.

i wasn't able to complete the dragon armor set because i couldn't find the door of the house in verdistis where it's supposed to be found. even pressing "alt" didn't highlight it. in the end, i gave up and just skipped that, along with some quests that i found unnecessary. for example, the dark cave quest. my warrior had a pt. in lockpick, but still i couldn't open it. i didn't want to waste another pt in lockpick, which i think is totally irrelevant for a warrior. why can't a warrior just bash that door open? and i didn't want to shop with the merchants for a spellbook, loading and reloading until i get the one i want. ultimately, i left many quests unsolved, most of these in verdistis, like that one where pickpocket skill is required. but still, i ended up with a level 45 warrior, which i enjoyed building up.

also, i found it a bit of a minor annoyance that the cursor pointing system seems to be a bit unpolished. to cite, after i reverted to my human form at the entrance of the black ring fortress, i clicked frantically on the entrance, but i couldn't get in. i had no choice but to fight all those monsters that came breathing down my neck. even so, i couldn't get it in easily. it was much later i found out that i had to stand se of the entrance and then click. *sigh* i was even arrested in the rivertown market area when i clicked on the entrance to walker's apothecary, not realizing that i clicked on his plant. tried to get in again, same thing happened. result: prison. solution: re-load. also, getting to general alix & to general mitox became tedious. i would run to get to them, only to find myself talking to a soldier.

anyway, those are minor things that hopefully will be polished in riftrunner and divinity 2. they don't change my view of divine divinity as an outstanding rpg. i stopped playing diablo & warcraft ever since i got this game. now i'm trying to finish another char, an archer, and start another one. to larian: give us more!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

yes... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> not to mention, another quite possible lengthly read...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

very nice analyses, on all parts....nice debate.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Raze, your rank here is a veteran and from reading your contributions I am guessing that you are a good programmer too. This encourages me to bring up a technical issue that irritated me and it is related to the game crashing.

I noticed that most of the crashes I had were related to passing through doors (from either side) of any house to the outside or from outside doors to any house when the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> game accumulates events that and items. Yet this problem itself is also related to the fact that I prefer the 1024 x 768 resolution at high quality graphics option too with gamma correction of factor 2.0 demanding direct X and hardware acceleration to be turned ON.

I seem to have managed to reduce the number of crashes by making my character pass through doors walking rather than running but it did not solve the problem completely. The last patch did not solve this problem either and I am using a powerful laptop running Windows XP.
I even tried to upgrade my direct x to version 9 but it did not make any difference.

Do you know of any remedies that do not demand of me to lower the resolution to 640 x 480?

Strange.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> Maybe something in your system doesn't like the roof fade in/out effect. Have you checked for updated graphics drivers? Is your desktop set to 16 bit colour depth?

In the configuration program, have you tried checking Alphabit or unchecking Smoothness? Switching to software or DirectDraw?
In the game, have you tried reducing the visual quality or disabling ztunnel? I temporarily turned down the quality to see if it would effect performance, but didn't notice a difference (1024x768, high quality, gamma correction 1.35, hardware acceleration on, but on a desktop system with windows 98).
Can you try reducing the resolution, at least long enough to see if that helps or not?

[Raze]
Strange.... Maybe something in your system doesn't like the roof fade in/out effect.

[DAD]
Absolutely correct.

[Raze]
Have you checked for updated graphics drivers?
Is your desktop set to 16 bit colour depth?

[DAD]
YUP.

[Raze]
In the configuration program, have you tried checking Alphabit or unchecking Smoothness?

[DAD]
*****
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
My Alpha bit is always unchecked and my Smoothness is always checked.
Then I must try this if it is what you believe causes the crash.


[Raze]
Switching to software or DirectDraw?

[DAD]
I am always on software because I cannot handle the crazy speed of the other moods. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
I randomly get something between 40 and 45 FPS, which is perfectly matching to my response ability.

[Raze]
In the game, have you tried reducing the visual quality or disabling ztunnel?

[DAD]
Yes I did, but those factors seem to be innocent as a cause.


[Raze]
I temporarily turned down the quality to see if it would effect performance, but didn't notice a difference (1024x768, high quality, gamma correction 1.35, hardware acceleration on, but on a desktop system with windows 98).

[DAD]
Bingo. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> I do think that XP is still buggy on graphics HAL, GLID, D3D, and even direct draw.
So even that I am not using them as a mood for the interface, Gamma correction feature is a hardware acceleration function on my laptop that is called through direct X 8.1a.

[Raze]
Can you try reducing the resolution, at least long enough to see if that helps or not?

[DAD]
I think that I should try checking the Alpha bit and unchecking smoothness first and see if that helps.
I cannot live with less than 1024 x 768 with my Elvin sight range active you know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


Thank you very much Raze

Sorry for my late response.
I responded after Raze posted and I thought that my response to his post was adequately sufficient to answer yours, but after a second thought I changed my mind lest you take it as if I ignored you, which is far from true. I apologise again.



Definitely with the current game design there is no way around accepting the acquisition of money for buying items by some means.
With a good story and consequently a good scenario, the quests can provide such items without the need for trade at all. As I said in my response to Raze, if the main choice was between a male or a female battle-mage only, then the global path is united to a divine path in which the hero seeks knowledge, experience and enchanted items. Looting the corpses of the hero’s dead enemies is an old game idea not a new one.
Dropping items is a very distracting thing in heavy combat and that is why I consider it a bad design point.
A very good source of new weapons is the weapon racks in the Orcish Camps (for example).
There you could pick up your choice and drop what you do not need to carry.
Having trade and gold as concepts within the game opens too many complications in design.
The hero could accumulate wealth by discovering treasures of ruby, emerald and amber at some point in the game to donate at a specific point in the story or to buy a house for example.
Potions should be made by the hero or found in barrels on camps etcetera.
So your point of (even a mage needs money to buy spell books) is answered if the mage could FIND spell books or scrolls that was in the possession of a slaughtered enemy-mage.
The fantastic trick in such a design is based on (stone/ scissors/ paper) concept.
You could always defeat any of the three by choosing the appropriate one and gain the knowledge left behind. Looting the library of a defeated mage is much more rewording and satisfactory than vacuum cleaning a pile of gold coins dropped by a rotten corps.



The name of the game is Divine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> not the great robbery.
The game is classified as a RPG while under its skin it is a dungeons and dragons role playing game.
The issue is not an issue of ethics as much as it is an issue of consistency.
The dignity of the hero is substantial and while dogs would fly after every thrown piece of bread a hero would only be moved to grab the most precious of all. Eating fish found on the floor of the sewers is so disgusting and unthinkable even if it was going to promote my intelligence with ten million points.
There must be a clear difference between Divine Divinity and Bad Mojo (a cockroach).



The sword of the Gods is not available until the episode of the waste lands.
All other excellent swords are two handed swords (chaos and singing) with the exception of the Nobleman’s sword (one-handed) that you get by joining the Thieves Guild (forcedly) to acquire the dagger. This contradicts with applying the shield of the dragon, which is a beautiful piece of graphics and could be your best choice for fire resistance by design to protect you from dragon breath.
That is why the game design dose not leave you with so much choice as you imply.
Why is there no sword of the dragon item to complete the set?
This is BAD design. Or in fact it was intentional to force you to join the thieves’ guild.



Hahahaha
Please remember that this RPG is based on a fantasy.
Aladdin was a thief that was forced to battle with evil Gaffer and he won the heart of the princess and a lot of treasures, but THAT is another story and an excellent one in comparison.
Salahoddin treated the poisoned wounds of Richard the Lion’s heart in real history because he was a true Paladin.
I care not if the hero was a survivor or not as long as the character is consistent.
I was under the impression that the Orcish counsel member shall be not be Kroxy but Smiruk who befriended the hero for giving him Slasher. Smiruk could have been a wise Orc revel who thinks that the Orcish hordes are stupid to follow the black ring deeds and opposes them and that is why he was caught and imprisoned. Saving him would be a second favour that makes him eternally in dept to the hero.
A thief character would not give a valuable Slasher to a stranger Orc (very contradictory).
If it was Smiruk who gave the Slasher to the survivor hero then saving him as a return of favour would be more logical. The story is bad, bad, bad.



The key word is Specific.
No robbing is required.
The hero could be given a set to start with and through training and quests replaces his items gradually to improve his offence and defence to match his abilities.
The rarity of weapons and the diversity of types and qualities could be planned to maximize the satisfaction of acquiring such weapons and armours.
Having hundreds of items available depreciates the value of acquisition of such weapons and renders them useless and garbage that distracts the player from the game.




Because strength is in the muscles and muscles are protein and protein comes from (meat) food.
Is that clear now? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
The hero shall walk, run and fight eventually, but without food the hero gets sick and exhausted.
Health points are really related to water, salts, vitamins, carbohydrates and spice.
Health should reflect the available energy content of the bio-system.
That is why eating bread in this game gives a lot of health, which is a very good design point.
My objection is based on having experience points giving you the choice of increasing your vitality which is totally ridiculous. Food and activity automatically increases stamina which is the best measurement of health.




LOL.
I agree, but assuming that they wear magically animated, then de- animating them should be appropriately. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />




As if you had any choice. LOL.
What I am saying is that the enchantress by acquiring great agility and dexterity could use a holy Bow.
Let one be called The Dooms Harp and another be The Elvin Bow of destruction.
Call another The Wind Splitter and yet another the simple name Zapper. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
With a damage base value in the range 50 to 100 and a maximum value of 150 to 200 you can wipe out armies with good war tactics.
Bronthion could give the hero one of them and Anarion could give one as a wedding present beside Hilfin that was given as a reword for saving Gavaranael’s daughter. Also the archers’ guild could have been activated for membership with two quests and offering a good bow for a start.





What the hell does finding Shrimpo have to do with the story line?
The garden quest too is completely unrelated even though it is much better than finding Shrimpo.
Almost all of the side quests are silly fabrications to fill in the space left by the very bad story line.




I finished the game over 30 times and I know that quite well.
The issue again is not whether the key does have a lock or not but the clever relevance of its location.
The best key ever was the key dropped by the child outside the kitchen beside the archers’ guild.
That key was very relevant, perfectly informed and predicted.
Now other than that the key should have some hint to relate it to the door or chest it opens.
If it could be found on the body of a bandit you kill beside the bandits’ camp where you find a locked chest then it is acceptable. If you find it hidden in a tree with special graphics features beside a house with a locked door, then I would accept that. But finding a key under a rock to discover that it opens a chest guarded by spiders two miles away is more than ridiculous and meaningless.




Heck, you do have a guild that you could not even join, the archers’ guild.
The guild of the mages and the guild of the dwarf miners are very challenging to a very poor story line.
The lizards could have had a guild of time weavers in which you learn slow down and legs of lead as well as temporal storms.



(Spoiler)
Yes I did. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
I had to go to the dwarf jeweller to commission a copy of the amulet that she demanded as a gift of love.



Of course you are very free to disagree that this very bad story line is a very bad story line.
Maybe we should call it an extremely bad story line or an intolerable concoction of headache poison. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
What do you expect from me as a support to my claims!
How about you, doing the summarizing of the story line in the minimal number of words to disprove my claims?
Aleroth did have a mini-story which was not that bad, but after Aleroth the council of seven is a very bad fabrication and the black ring is a laugh. Those story geometries were not assembled professionally in the story line at all.
Baby Janus drops a dragon stick and rides a magical sword guarded by a magical door that demands a password. Did the late duke take Janus with him and let him suffer the evil of the sword! Did baby Janus fabricate the correct password! Come on, how did Janus have access to the sword of lies?
From where did that black ring come? Did they find a chance all of a sudden to guide baby Janus to the sword to touch it and free its demon? Once Janus was possessed by the demon all evil deeds in the land follows. How was the healing source created by Ruben Ferule corrupted? Why didn’t the healers discover that the grey fever is a poison, even if they failed to connect it to Elrath? Are they dummies or healers?
I can go on and on and on, so what shall it be?
the story is very bad; period.



Giving you the choice to choose the inevitable is a very bad game design strategy and plain deception.



It backfired and I almost hated Lar himself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
LOL
My hero was powerful enough to kill all the castle guards when I entered the castle.
Why the hell can’t I escape!
Bad is bad and there is no justification for protecting bad design.




Thinking!
How about reading the title of the game? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



Now please remember that my OP was a bitter PRAISE.
I love the game with all its negative points, but because I liked it so much it hurt me even more.
We always seek the perfection of whom we love.
That is why I invested time in playing and criticising this particular game.
It had great potential that was not properly exploited.



I said that the story was a very poor story as a story line.
As for the game design, I never said that the game designer was totally incompetent but rather said that because of the bad story line many decisions on the game design had to compromise rather than excel.
I said that there is a huge space for game design improvement, not at the technical level but at the conceptual level to maximise the satisfaction of role playing.

I respect your criticism of my criticism and I hope to read more opinions whether that if for or against mine.

Kind regards.

Dear DAD,

u made several good points in there, but I think mostly I would have to disagree. I mostly play as a thief, and if I'm not a thief, I'm a warrior/mage. But always I play the same way, as a theif I know plenty of Mage spells, and warrior skill also. But it is strange that the thief is the divine one. And ni matter what u do need money for everything u have. and its is rpg/dungeons and dragons game. dungeons and dragons is a rpg. its a role playing game as well.

Gamma correction feature is a hardware acceleration function on my laptop that is called through direct X 8.1a.
hey DAD, nice postage my friend...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
is that your current version of DirectX.....?

try this!....... DirectX 9 Final

Great points everyone. This is a much better read than 'what happened to my stamina?'

Hey, my stamina keeps going down!!!!!! WTF!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />