Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General A few simple suggestions

These past few days there have been many previews of the pre-alpha version of Original Sin so we had the oportunity to get a good look at least on the part of the game that was shown to the press and youtube personalities. Based on that I have a few simple suggestions to make. Knowing that the build shown is pre-alpha you may already know about them or have fixed them already but I thought to make a topic just in case.

The first is about a problem in coop. When there is a dialogue between the players it may end with the players expressing opinions. Like for example the dialogue with the guy that fell off a cliff trying to fly. There is a short exchange and then the first player gives his opinion and then the second and these opinions alter some stats that describe their character. The problem is that the choice by the second player that ends the dialogue isn't visible for the first player. In single player that's not a problem since you know what you've selected but in multiplayer I think it would be better if the line was shown and then there was an "(end)" response from the first player to end the dialogue.

The second is a quality of life design decision. Since the dialogue system is based on keywords and it seems with every new one you unlock you can ask everyone about it, there is bound to be some repetition. I actually saw that there is in the preview by Total Biscuit. Two npcs had exactly the same responce about Jake's murder (I hope I got the name right). Of course with the volume of npcs and conversation topics that's something to be expected. However there are players like myself that are extremely thorough when playing rpgs and like to ask everyone every possible question. Just for our sake can you change the keywords somehow (make them gray instead of white for example) to indicate that if we do ask we'll get an answer we've already seen? We should still be able to ask the question (we may have forgotten the last answer or we want to see which opionion that particular NPC has of the situation) but let us know there won't be any new information gained on the subject. I don't think this makes the game any less hardcore. As I said it's a "quality of life", something for example that I'd want Morrowind to have.

Third and last. You've said that there won't be level scaling and there won't be any respawns. Those are both decisions that I agree with of course. There is a third one though that has to go in hand with these two (and if I remember right Divinity 2 had that problem). Experience gains shouldn't diminish with level. Let me give an example. Let's say a level 4 orc gives 100xp when you kill it at character level 1. It should give 100xp even if you kill it in character level 10. The triviality of low level encounters in higher levels should only be represented by raising the xp needed to gain levels as you level up and not lowering the gains. What I'm saying is that the total experience pool within the game should be constant and not changing with the order you do things. Otherwise you force players to move through areas in a certain way to maximize the experience gain. That takes away from exploration and letting players experience the game in the fashion they like.

I ended up making a long post again for a few simple issues but I do hope you take them under consideration. The last two are personal observations after playing hundreds of rpgs on what works for me and what doesn't. Of course not every rpg player has the same preferences; even those of us who are categorized as old-school have differences of opinion. However these views on those two issues I think are broadly accepted and I think most companies don't implement them not by choice but because they are small issues and they either don't think of them at all or don't think them significant enough to spend time towards. I can assure you though that diminishing xp has a serious impact on how much a player can enjoy the game while the dialogue choice thing just makes life easier without having any significant drawbacks, as far as mechanics go. Codewise it may be difficult to do, depending on the way you have your conversation system set up. If you have a database of responces and each npc just has a pointer to a responce based on what was asked then you can just set a flag the first time that responce is given and then use a simple if clause when starting dialogue to gray out choices. It may be much more difficult or easier than that but if it's not too much of a hassle it would be appreciated if it was implemented.

1. I'm pretty sure that's a bug that will be fixed. If not, it should be.

2. Good idea. I'm not sure that would be easy to implement though, or that Larian would even want to do that, because it might be too much like hand-holding. Grayed-out keywords should at least appear for things you've already asked an NPC in the current conversation, though.

3. That might be a good point. I know that I certainly tend to play Divinity games like that, trying to wipe out enemies in the order of their level to maximize their experience. On the other hand, there's something to be said for Variable experience. The system Larian used in Divinity 2 let you progress at a predictable rate regardless of how much extra content you did. I think Larian knows what they're doing.

Agreed on 1, I noticed it too.

+1 (larian should really include a +1 or up or thanks system on the forum..also a list to see which users are online instead of one with all users ever to be created

Actually the point of 3 is not to progress in a predictable rate. Take Gothic 1 and 2 for example. There were areas around your level that you would follow and harder areas that you would visit later when better equiped and of a higher level, powerful enough to rise to the challenge. However you could go to those difficult areas from the start and fight battles that would be much more difficult if you decided to take them on later on the game. That works in 2 ways. First it's a test of skill (and since Original Sin is turn based and not real time a test of strategy and tactics). You get the satisfaction of slaying that troll at the first chapter although you were supposed to do it in the second. The second way is that stronger opponents usually mean better rewards, xp and item-wise so if you managed to accomplice the feat of going off the beaten path and surviving that would mean your character would grow more powerful and make future challenges easier.

However if that is coupled with diminishing experience it creates two different problems for the player. First, lower level areas will be both easy and not rewarding at all making it a chore to go through them. (Kingdoms of Amalur had that problem in a huge degree). Second the player feels punished for straying from the main path instead of feeling rewarded for a difficult accomplishement.

It's also worthy to note that taking on difficult battles many times means that you'll burn through your consumables so it's not like they don't have any drawbacks. However that is a choice the player makes. Is it worth to spend my 5 mana potions to kill that fire demons and then have none for the easier but still not trivial encounter? That adds options. Forcing the player to follow a certain path if he wants to maximize his power is limiting them.

Closing a great recent example was the quarry filled with Deathclaws in Fallout: New Vegas. You could visit it very early in the game and you would normally get slaughtered. However with enough ingenuity you could mabe kill one or two even at low leves, using up your explosives or sniper ammo or some other resource.

I agree with points one and two.

For point three, to me it really doesn't make a difference between requiring 100000 XP to next level and the enemy giving 100 or requiring 1000 experience to next level and the enemy giving 1. In Divinity 2 it also worked both ways: killing enemies of higher level than you gave more experience. There should always be a minimum experience gain, though. Like the level of the opponent or something.

Getting 100 experience for lower level creatures might seem more rewarding than getting 1, but it doesn't mean that killing lower level creatures is any more meaningful. You still need to kill 446 of them to level up.

Singbird that's the other option. To have a fixed amount of xp needed to levelup and lower the xp gains for easier encounters. It's the way Final Fantasy 8 did it. Most western rpgs don't take this approach as since their inception they have been influenced by DnD rules and logic. That would be fine too, lower the xp but have a constant number needed to levelup.

Anyway, I think I need to be clearer about point 3. There are 2 arguments that I'm trying to make. The first is that players who want to maximize their experience gain shouldn't have to follow a certain "optimal" path. This may not be a problem here since there seems to be a max level of 20 (at least at the moment). Here is an example of this problem in a more general and abstract sense. Let's say you are level 1 and need 100 xp to levelup to lvl 2, 200xp to lvlup from 2 to 3 and so on. There is a level 10 troll that gives you 1000xp if you kill it when you are level 1-10 and less if you are more (cause of deminishing xp). Then let's say there are 10 orcs lvl 1 that each give 10 xp at level 1 and less as you go up the levels. For example's sake let's say that at lvl 5 they give you only 1 xp. Let's examine 2 senarios:

1st: The player kills the orcs first and then the troll. The player will get 10x10=100xp from the orcs and level up to level 2. Then if he kills the troll he'll get another 1000xp and get a few more levels. The total xp gain for the player will be 1100xp.

2nd: The player kills the troll first. He gets 1000xp and levels up to level 5 (if each levelup requires the previous level x 100xp as in the example above). Then he kills the orcs. The orcs give him 10x 1xp = 10xp. So the total xp gain is 1010xp.

As you can see for someone who wants to maximize his xp gain in a game with no respawns or level scaling, the first approach is optimal as you get 90 more xp. That may not seem like much in the current example but imagine over the course of the game how much xp can be lost that way.


The second argument is that a completionist will want to kill any enemy they can find. However if there is xp scaling the low level encounters will both be easy and only give minimal xp. Imagine fighting 100 orcs in the first level area and each one giving 10xp, even if that is not much for a high level character, as a total 1000xp may be. If due to diminishing xp they give 1xp though he'll just get 10% of the original gain. Encounters that present no challenge and give no reward are just a chore, adding nothing to the game.

AlexF : I agree with your concern on point 3 and would add some things on buggy problems (even if I'm sure the team already saw that) : Big elements in the front of the game (like the statue in one video ) won't become transparent ... This mean you won't be able to see your character when he walks ... That wouldn't be troublesome if it werenot true in combat too... ( but it's a pre alpha thing, so, I don't think it will stay).

I know a lot of people who love farming (me included, but not too long) and the limited XP make the game harder, and less intresting for them. Fortunately, the dungeon can add challenges and XP for people who want to have an overpowered character ... I don't know if XP is shared between both characters or not, but if it isn't, this could be troublesome for multiplayers...

Finally, I think like AlexF that the amount of XP needed to go from one level to another should increase, but that creatures always give the same amount...
That mean : if you are cunny enough, you can kill the big Dragon who finished the game and give you 80000 XP ... you will go from lvl 1 to lvl 10 ( for exemple ) but that's normal, you killed a ... Dragon ! On the other hand, it always give you the same amount of "XP" to kill a goblin... When you are a crybaby in the wild, killing ten goblins make you lvl up, but after you killed a Dragon, it won't do much...