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Originally Posted by Grokalibre
Hmmm seems I'm not clear enough, sorry English is not my native language.
So, what I propose is that we could have multiple quickbars, on top of each others, on the sides, etc, just like in any modern mmo, to get rid of all the item micro managing that makes a game tedious. I like my shortcuts as much as the next guy, I don't want cheap limitations that we bypass by constantly and tediously dragging and dropping, etc.

Now, among these quickbar, there would be a UNIQUE COMBAT BAR, which would be the LOCKED DURING FIGHTS, and the ONLY ONE WE COULD USE DURING FIGHTS.
The idea is to have us make build choices for fights, not have us do ton of drag and drops during fights.
This UNIQUE, LIMITED COMBAT BAR could have something like 6 skills and 2 items slots, I don't know this would have to be tested and yeah obviously I'm no game designer, but again the idea is that we don't end running Mageninjatanksofdoom that run into the middle of a group of ennemy, explode everything on their way and self heal while summoning pets and barely getting scratched.

I'm not proposing this for the sake of having a tedious interface or anything silly of that sort, no.

Why I'm proposing this is because I want tactic fights, with meaningful choices, and being able to do everything all the time will just prevent that.

So please, before you answer "nooooo we'll just drag and drop and it's tedious etc", please understand that it's not what I'm proposing, that I'm sorry for not being able to express myself in a cleared and more understandable way, and that I'm only proposing this because I firmly believe it would make fights -which should be a substantial portion of the game- more tactic and thus more enjoyable.


Of course I agree with the multi hot-bar idea out of combat, and I perfectly understand why you are suggesting a single hot bar in combat.
NWN2 (and any other D&D powered game ever made) limits the amount of spells you can cast through memorization, or per-day powers, so having all these hot-bars is hardly an issue. You still have a limit to the amount of spells/powers you can cast.

Having said that, being forced to rely only on 8-10 powers while fighting it's NOT a tactical improvement. It doesn't really change the way you fight, or if it does, it does it in the wrong way, tactically speaking. In games with limited hot-bars, once you have made your choice about your skill-set, your are stuck with it. If you meet the "wrong" enemy, in the best case scenario you have to flee the battle; in the worst, you have to die and reload. This issue can be addressed adding to the game the option to change skill-set during combat, at the cost of an entire round wasted doing that, but still we are talking of STRATEGIC improvements, not tactical improvements.

Now, normally I'm positive about any kind of strategic improvement in RPGs, but in a game like D:OS I feel it would be over-design. This game is first and foremost about exploration and quest-solving. It does't really need a deep strategic layer that slows it down. What it DOES need is a better balanced combat, and to achieve that developers just need to work on the AP cost of powers/potions, on cooldowns and on missing features like delayed actions and spells that need more rounds to be cast.

Last edited by Baudolino05; 26/12/13 07:47 PM.
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For me the strategic combat is the most important part of the game and the reason why a backed this. I wanted to revisit an turn based combat RPG. The questing and stuff is all only there in my eyes to give me more spells, skills equipment so that combat becomes even more interesting.

Last edited by Janju; 26/12/13 05:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Janju
For me the strategic combat is the most important part of the game and the reason why a backed this. I wanted to revisit an turn based combat RPG. The questing and stuff is all only there in my eyes to give me more spells, skills equipment so that combat becomes even more interesting.


What I was trying to say is that strategy an tactic are not the same. To make it simple: strategy is about preparation to combat, tactic is about the way you fight. Games such X-Com make this difference extremely clear.

Some features could be an improvement for the strategic layer of the game and at the same time be detrimental for its tactical complexity. D:OS doesn't need a D&D-like strategic layer. It needs a better balanced combat with more tactital options.

Last edited by Baudolino05; 26/12/13 05:57 PM.
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I am unsure whether I am supportive on having different combat bars in general, but reading through this topic gave me the following ideas:

Say I have a few combat action bars focusing on different things, like fire, or ice, or healing, etc.

Suddenly, I find myself in an unexpected combat situation. Before I use any skill, I am allowed to switch between my different presets for free, but once I use a skill, changing is no longer permitted, or at least not without spending action points.

Just my 5 cents. hehe


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Originally Posted by Robrecht
I am unsure whether I am supportive on having different combat bars in general, but reading through this topic gave me the following ideas:

Say I have a few combat action bars focusing on different things, like fire, or ice, or healing, etc.

Suddenly, I find myself in an unexpected combat situation. Before I use any skill, I am allowed to switch between my different presets for free, but once I use a skill, changing is no longer permitted, or at least not without spending action points.

Just my 5 cents. hehe


This is weird. But interesting. Please, go on... wink

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Hm, idea for switching: Make the bars that can not be selected for free greyed out, and add a button for "confirm selection" or so. That way you can change your presets just to browse, and only when you're sure, hit the confirm button, which then spends some action points. Probably the same amount as opening the inventory and completely changing the layout.
Maybe even one action point less for a twist, depending on whether you want to differentiate between selecting a preset or creating a new one.

scenario: *dun dun dunnn combat*
1. you like to use fire, select your fire layout <no AP>
2. activate fireball <5 AP>
3. ??? {some combat and AP spending ensues}
4. profit {several mobs killed}
5. a fire elemental wanders in
6. crap your pants <1 AP>
7. select your healing bar ... or no select the ice layout <no AP>
8. hit confirm <3 AP>
9. kill the hellspawn {some combat and AP spending ensues}
10. drink beer

Alternatively, using skills from 'inactive' bars costs extra and may or may not 'activate' that bar.


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I don't imagine that the current alpha toolbar is anything like the final version: it just looks so sad and lonely stuck in the middle of a widescreen monitor. At the very least I would expect to be able to stretch it horizontally to fit more slots in. Whether that will provide enough slots to be able to fit everything in without having to create a multiple quickbar mechanism is yet to be seen.

A strategic decision for a player character is whether to focus on breadth or depth of skills and/or spells. Do I invest points in many spell groups in order to have a range of tactical options, or do I focus on a small number of more powerful spells? Artificially stopping me from using a wider range of options is blocking me from making use of that choice. Doing so by nerfing the GUI, rather than by a proper gameplay mechanic, is surely just defining the first "essential mod that should have been in the game from the start".

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Originally Posted by BlackPhi
I don't imagine that the current alpha toolbar is anything like the final version: it just looks so sad and lonely stuck in the middle of a widescreen monitor. At the very least I would expect to be able to stretch it horizontally to fit more slots in. Whether that will provide enough slots to be able to fit everything in without having to create a multiple quickbar mechanism is yet to be seen.

A strategic decision for a player character is whether to focus on breadth or depth of skills and/or spells. Do I invest points in many spell groups in order to have a range of tactical options, or do I focus on a small number of more powerful spells? Artificially stopping me from using a wider range of options is blocking me from making use of that choice. Doing so by nerfing the GUI, rather than by a proper gameplay mechanic, is surely just defining the first "essential mod that should have been in the game from the start".

That's exactly what I've been trying to say here, thanks.

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Originally Posted by BlackPhi
Doing so by nerfing the GUI, rather than by a proper gameplay mechanic, is surely just defining the first "essential mod that should have been in the game from the start".


Pretty sure he meant to tie this to a gameplay mechanic, not just a UI limitation.
i.e. : invoke the power of water, spend some AP, cast water spells. Switch to fire using another invocation, spend some AP, cast fire spells, etc.
Probably still needs some fleshing out, but it's not a bad idea. I like the idea of having a cost to switching to antagonist magic elemental powers in the middle of a situation.

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Originally Posted by Clemens
Originally Posted by BlackPhi
Doing so by nerfing the GUI, rather than by a proper gameplay mechanic, is surely just defining the first "essential mod that should have been in the game from the start".


Pretty sure he meant to tie this to a gameplay mechanic, not just a UI limitation.
i.e. : invoke the power of water, spend some AP, cast water spells. Switch to fire using another invocation, spend some AP, cast fire spells, etc.
Probably still needs some fleshing out, but it's not a bad idea. I like the idea of having a cost to switching to antagonist magic elemental powers in the middle of a situation.


Indeed, I was just sharing some inspiration about gameplay mechanics I got when reading through this thread. Oh and I agree that the UI is something that should only be designed when all mechanics are in place, of course. hehe

I'm also not sure myself the ideas are actually good, but putting them on the table might inspire others, who knows. wink

Last edited by Robrecht; 04/01/14 07:25 AM. Reason: formatting

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