Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Ranger/Survivor Feedback

Hey really enjoying the game but thought I'd give you some feedback.

I hope this doesn't sound too negative, like I say I do really like you game alot!

Can't say I'm too keen on the changes to the ranger/survivor... Bows take longer and AP is still bound to the same stat as health... Meaning Rangers need a huge stat range to be any good... Requiring perception (which is kinda weak anyway) for long range, dex for the bows, speed for the movement and constitution for the ability to actually do anything.

Plus Multi-shot the first skill isn't even usable without reserving skill points, I actually find this super frustrating, so even if it may be balanced... it'd be nice to swap it out for a skill I can use without saving AP.
Having one good opening turn hardly makes up for much when enemies have so much health.
The custom arrows are cool but Mages get to cast the same effects for no gold and without having to invest in crafting.


May I suggest a re-arrangement of the stats to fix the issue?

Dex for AP regenerated per turn
Perception for chance to hit with bows.

Then maybe buff the speed increase from putting points in speed and add action points at the start of combat to constitution. It makes sense that big tank guys could have some explosive power but burn out after one big onslaught.

I feel this would make playing classes designed to be low health high speed feel better, as currently its more low health and the ability to attack twice on you're first turn.

Also, ranger is a far better name then Survivor, just saying :p

What does everyone think of my suggestions and gripes?

Thanks for making a great game regardless of my grumbles!

Bows at least feel more effective now in combat. I guess the 4 AP cost is to exchange the safety of range with the lower overall power for the higher AP cost.

As for the Ranger, I think you may have to sacrifice Speed, if you can't afford all 4.

I'm not sure what the best way is to arrange the stats and pick which is the right one for AP Generated per turn. That one is a troubling stat, because AP Generated per turn is so powerful that everyone is going to want to put lots of points into it.

All I can think of would be to base it on the higher of Stat 1/Stat 2, but that may be too complicated an idea to get across and it might be a pain to calculate.

It seems powerful enough to have it's own stat, and then that stat itself can be balanced, changing the boost in ap per point into it. At the minute getting both health and AP just makes for a team full of plate mailed warriors who hit more times then most rogue types...

I have to say I'm not a fan of that idea, as it basically screws over all the builds that aren't interested in Dexterity. Melee characters in particular need to move from opponent to opponent to attack and lacking the extra action points earned from Constitution would really hurt.

Constitution is fairly universal - unless you're aiming to be built out of glass, everyone dips into this stat (which may be why it's linked to AP).

How about this? Just a basic AP thing.

The heavier your armor, the less AP you generate per turn.
The heavier your weapon, the more AP it will cost to swing or throw.

-Strength affects the percentage of AP you lose per turn for armor, and how much more AP it will cost to swing a weapon.

The more complex your bow is, the more AP it will cost to shoot.

-Dexterity affects the percentage of AP it costs to shoot more complex bows (like compound bow, crossbow, etc)

-Perception is something else.

The more powerful/complex your spell is, the more AP it will cost to cast.

-Intelligence affects the percentage of AP it costs to cast more complex spells.

The heavier your armor, the more AP you will have to spend to move.
The type of terrain affects the amount of AP required to move.

-Speed affects the amount of AP it costs to move to places. A higher speed will allow you to spend less AP moving, as well as how fast you reload your weapon (if it is ranged, such as a bow, or throwing daggers)

Getting poisoned/frozen/burnt will increase the amount of AP it will cost to use any action.
Being drunk will increase the AP cost of any action.
Being knocked down will cost a certain amount of AP to pick yourself back up.

-Constitution lowers the amount of AP it costs to take actions under these circumstances by a percentage.

AP is static and/or increases as you level. AP Regeneration is static and/or increases as you level up.

Just a thought.

The amount of AP you have maxes out at 20. The amount you'll often have is about 6. That's too small for percentage to be a useful way to manage it.

Different weapons already have different AP costs. Heaver gear also decreases your movement per AP. I'm not sure making heavier weapons and equipment penalize you more on top of what they already do would be a good idea. Warriors do still have to move around the battlefield and attack enemies.

Warriors, on the front lines, will tend to absorb the first poison/fire damage, and you want them to suffer even more penalties to AP. Either the penalties you'd apply are so small as to be no different than the status quo, or they'll make being a warrior a frustrating experience in sitting around doing nothing.

I assume that your idea of having static AP/AP regeneration means your attributes don't count for AP. That just seems to disproportionately punish melee/tank classes.

Disproportionately punish melee classes? But that's why you put points into strength and constitution. If anything, if your mage ends up getting knocked down and you didn't put any points in constitution, then he's probably fucked. The setup I was talking about makes all of the stats have some sort of affect on everything to do with AP, with the exception of Perception.

So, Warriors, naturally should have a high strength and constitution. So, they would put points into that, allowing them to take on the front line challenges, while a mage wouldn't be able to do that.

The way I explained it was so that warriors are warriors and mages can't just naturally be warriors. So, while your mage might be able to wield a 2handed sword, he won't be able to use it as effectively as a someone with a higher strength, damage capabilities and bonuses aside. But he could still use it if he really wanted to. But say he wanted to don some heavy armor, he's not going to be able to wear it as well as someone with higher strength than he has, so he won't regenerate as much AP due to fatigue.

I don't see this punishing anyone other than the people who focus everything in one stat. This diversifies what you'd need to keep going.

This isn't a 'add this on', this is an entire rethinking of the AP system.

Here's an objection: You're using points into Attributes to determine how well you can use things, instead of points into the actual abilities. That way is more generic and it's harder to change direction with Attribute points you get once every two levels than with Ability points you get 3 per level (even with the increased costs of boosting abilities to higher levels).

Well I think currently making everyone equally fast and equally healthy seems a little odd. You can't build a glass cannon because they only get to fire once... It just makes no sense to invest in much other then constitution as it helps EVERYTHING. It seems like it needs a stat of it's own, maybe just join it to the speed stat.

My suggestion in another thread about stats was moving AP per turn to speed, among various other changes. It's a thread about the intelligence stat in general, I believe, so have a look if you want to start brainstorming stat stuff with me in it or some such.

Perhaps I'll copypasta it in here at some point, since this appears to ultimately be turning into a stats discussion again.

I don't seem to find Melee rogue skills (books to buy or in the Talents menu, exept from sneaking), did I missed them or are they not implemented yet ?
(And yes, survivor is a bit weird)

They really should move AP to skills or something that people can dump into because as of right now it's a lose-lose situation for everyone.

You basically have to go con + other stat.

If it's on a skill you can then you can specialize much easier fitting various play styles.

That's my gut intuition anyways. Either make it so "Way of the X" reduces Y associated skills by Z/Z% AP or "Combat Knowledge" as a universal skill that increases your AP cap and "Combat Maneuvers" as something that increases your AP.

The Combat with melee and range weapons need some more tactical options. Currently you are able to attack or use a Spell (multi-shot/split-arrow ...) with a cooldown. after this your tactical options are attack or not to attack. If you are playing solo this could be ok but if you are playing coop (and has nothing more to play than your ranger/warrior) this getting boring.

Some more "out of the box" attack-options would be nice: like "targeted shoot", "cripple shoot". For the melees give some options like "throwing the enemy", "shield bash", "trip the enemy". So you can make some tactical decisions / has some more diversity

Ap to skill sounds interesting, like gaining skill with something like a bow decreases the ap cost for using it... then give everyone a flat ap score... that could work.

Putting AP per turn as an Ability (there is a difference between "Skills" and "Abilities") just transfers the problem of "Wow this is really good and I want lots of points into it" from Primary Attributes to Abilities.

It's less of a problem, because you get 3 ability points per level instead of 1 attribute point every two levels, but it doesn't change the "that's really too good to not boost" issue.

My only other ideas right now, though, are maybe alternating what primary attribute boosts AP regeneration per turn, -OR- Having AP regenerated per turn be based on the higher of two or three primary attributes, like Constitution and Dexterity.

Mages use Intelligence to lower their AP costs instead, so higher AP regen isn't needed quite as much.

That sounds like quite a good idea. I'd just like it if you could start to get *fast* classes, such as a rogue who focus on delivering a lot of back-stabs in one turn rather then maxing damage, popping up.

It just creates a lot of variation. Do you want a ranger that hits really hard or one who fires a million shots? A wizard who can always cast the most powerful spells or one who fires lots of small ones.

I feel it would create a lot of variation in builds rather then just deciding "Oh I'll use a bow." and ending up with as much constitution as you're tank and attacking the same amount...

Overall it seems (until now) melee and normal range weapons are far behind magic dmg at the moment.
we found no npcs for new ranger/knight/warri skills or spells... only mage spells at the marketplace in the city.

The arrow vendor at the marketplace has some skill books.

There are SkillBooks for all "Classes" available in the village. But there are fare more Skills for a Mage, than for the Survivor and Warrior ...

I guess it makes sense, Warriors have a really good basic attack and Rangers have all those different arrows.