Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Educating Players! [Larian needs some help!]

I can't comment on this article for some reason:

http://www.lar.net/2014/03/07/educating-players/

This is really a tough question and it may take some time for them to add a tutorial as this game is very technical (for new users who haven't played this kind of game). I also can agree with one of them says in the article say "he wouldn't have tried half the stuff I showed him because he would’ve assumed that we didn’t support it".

One reason might be the crafting system as the game did not introduce how crafting works. Also inventory is full of stuff that I really don't want to go through and dragging to other items. I also realize that most of your interviews, you haven't shown is crafting as the game doesn't seem to have one.

The other reason might be the talent system which we know that the talent system is being worked on which most of us are very happy, also the way of the classes ability's need to be worked on like adding nice ability's for each classes (Stabbey made a good thread about that).

Though I have a suggestion to make players understand the game and more efficiently without making a tutorial if you make all the things that the palyer needs to know about. I know plenty of games that doesn't require any tutorial because they know how to start the game by introducing the player or things that make it noticeable for the player to do.

What is the game core of the game?

- Equipping (add a highlight system where the item can be placed)
- Looting (Highlighting might also need to be added)
- Crafting (really need its own crafting UI with all the ingredients you have collected and an slot for you to combine with)
- Spell books (double click on books will might need to be changed)
- Combat (First combat with crabs can be added as an tutorial)

Lets start from the beginning of the game:

What we do first?

We walk around and loot many of shells, how players can know that they are lootable? (By hovering on them but would they know? it's hard to explain). Maybe when they done talking there should a mention about the shells to pick them up or something that will notice the player to pick up (A pop up is really good to use ALT but it still doesn't show the shell highlighted)

Headed to the "flying dead man" the player will know how to loot. How can they read the journal from the inventory or know what they have just picked up? (Yes there is an pop up of how to open the inventory screen but we need the player to be noticed what they have picked up)

Maybe a highlight sign on the player character face inventory button of the new items you have just picked up (It won't highlight again if you picked up the same item before). Also an highlight of the item on the inventory screen that your mouse did not hover on (clicked on) or an notice on the journal that you haven't read this.

What also might be interesting is special quest items that you have picked up that need to be read, it will show you a different highlighted colour or this sign "!" on the inventory screen or on the face profile inventory.

Now why not add a lootable unique chest (noticable for player) near or close to the "flying dead man" or somewhere in the beginning of the game for your character to say "Hey look a chest? wonder whats inside...". Inside the chest there will be some ingredients for the character to craft, just a simple one. The game should have a new icon for crafting next to the inventory button on the bottom of the characters face profile (it should open up the crafting UI inventory) and it also can be highlighted when looting new items.

Than it will show you the tutorial of how to craft. This suggestion will defiantly make the game more noticeable of how crafting and the inventory system works that must be used during the game.

I'm gonna stop from there as my head is mind blown lol but these are the simple things that will make new players really understand the mechanics of the game without making a tutorial or just showing the tutorial in beginning of the game.

I agree about the academy, as I proposed that some times ago.

You don't want to educate players, you want to hook them. So they think: what is next, from the minute they put their hands on the game. Like Civilisation in a strategic way.
Introduction and conclusion are always the most important parts of anything.
Introduction for hooking, conclusion for remembering.

You are missing the introduction to your game.

Cyseal is boring. Nothing happens in the damn city. There is nothing to do beside "looking for clues". I didn't buy an inquiry game, I bought an open world old school rpg. Not a random rat invasion, not a random single orc attack, not a single world interaction skill...

The player should always be waiting for something either to happen, either to come to completion, either to have the choice to do, either to invest into, that will increase its power.

No respawn = nothing to do once mobs are dead.
No random spawns = absolutely no surprises whatsoever.
Blend character development = only wait is for a level to come to completion, and then, distribute points in the most unrealistic way possible.
Bad introduction = frustration: "I am supposed to be a source hunter, not an underequipped and underskilled beggar".

Sadly, you are right. look at this blend list of so called "features". Looting and crafting ? Gimme a break.

Looting shells... I must be nightmaring...
"hey, we are source hunters, what could we do next?
- What about picking up shells ?
- But...
- STFU, there is nothing else to do anyways...."

Yeah I agree that the introduction of the game can be worked on and we don't want the player to be forced to pick up all the shells :P. I also saw the suggestion about the academy it will make allot of sense when arriving at the beginning of the game.

Yes we want the new players or us to be noticed or hooked how the UI is meant to be used or how the system should be working like. Though what I'm suggesting is not to educate them but bring the quests to them so they can actually noticed or get hooked onto the system of the UI or properly introduced to the quests.

I'm not gonna lie about Cyseal too there aren't enough quests but crom I still believe that they are still adding new building for each NPC's for Cyseal for the NPC Schedules, which I hope there will be more quests that comes interactively with the player.

I also know the game isn't just about looting and crafting, I still haven't talked about the others I have suggested but I think many of us have the idea.

Well, I'm reposting this a third time today, but an optional Source Hunters Academy tutorial could be a great introduction for many reasons. It could optionally introduce a lot of gameplay mechanics, like crafting, dialogue, stealth, combat.

Story wise, it could give some more background on the Source, what it is, and why it's bad. I still want to start off on the beach with a "Source Hunter's Manual" that contains that kind of information, though. I want to be able to visit the crime scene, look up in the book what the signs of Source magic are, and then go "yep, this looks like Source magic." I think that would draw me into the world more than "take our word for it, this is Source".

I also didn't like feeling an idiot when a person said that Jake was killed with Source magic, not a knife, even though the Source Hunters felt that was a clue. I felt like an idiot because I didn't know if she was right or if she was merely misinformed, and the game didn't tell me which.


A Source Hunter's academy isn't going to be enough, though. You are going to need at least some pop-ups for when new game mechanics are introduced, as well as a way to look up what those messages said without having to start again or load to trigger them again.

Yes I'm really fond on the Academy idea, also showing how to craft our training swords, knife or staff (depends which classes), yeah it will defiantly make allot of sense than starting doing the tutorial from the beach and yes they should still add some tips on the beach.

They also just need to introduce or improve the UI system for the crafting system and the inventory system to actually make it more alive for the player to use when picking up special quest items or new items and ingredients.

Sadly it is true. They are definitely going in the wrong direction there, wasting a huge amount of time and energy for some stupid stuff (I don't give a shit to follow NPC's going to bed, if there is nothing to do with it...), while they could be improving the game on many other issues, and hopeffully they are...
I really wish this ultimate stretch goal had not been met.

I mean, really, looting and crafting are soooooooo mainstream and blend, it is not even worth mentionning them as "features". It's like "moving around" would be a feature.

And some gameplay and story ARE unbalanced.

I can't wait for the next update to see If I play more than 15 minutes in a row, and see what ameliorations they added to the game (because there is still hope)

Some players want markers, others do not. Maybe that's a case for an option in a menu you can turn on - but only for the cases where you're specifically directed to a place by an NPC.

I agree that the crafting system is a bit overwhelming, and even with the books scattered around town, it's rather tiring to track them down. I have to thank the person who found the plaintext list of crafting formulas in the alpha files and put it into an Excel spreadsheet for easy reference.

Here's an example of something I wouldn't have assumed the game supported: clicking on an item in a shop marked as "stealing", and being asked if I want to buy it, instead of trying to steal it. The usual assumption is that you would try and steal it instead - especially because it's marked as "touching this is a crime".

Though I really liked the idea about the NPC schedules, just hope they make it more interactive with them. For instance following an NPC to a bar that might have issues and need help or realizing an NPC is being suspicious on his daily walks just stalking someone through a window on a certain time, than we arrest him or what ever we chose to do. Another example their might be some time based quests, where they tell you you must meet with these guys during that time and such and such. These the things that I hope the developers were thinking about when they were implanting the day night cycle and NPC schedules. It will make the quests and side quest more immerse like the original divinity game

Also it will be nice for them to sleep at night, who knows maybe the developers will add monsters to the city while they are locked on in their house or something mysterious. I don't want my hopes to be up but these are things that they should be considering.
I also can't wait and see what they have done with the update, played the game for 65 hours :P

I agree, there needs to be some sort of interactive "tutorial" but I also like the current being thrown right into the world feel the alpha currently has.

the starting area could be modified with mini quests that introduce gathering (looting, moving, looking for objects) and crafting (to prepare for your journey with more than just your starting equipment) like a mini scouting quest.

As far as Cyseal not having combat quests, I think it's just fine there may be some areas with no enemy units too start with in the game as it actually gives you breathing room to RP in a *gasp* RPG. Being that this is an open world RPG not just in physical map size and layout but in what you can do - how you can interact with the world, if Cyseal is really that boring, you can always create combat by attacking folks you don't much care for yourself.

The issue is, gathering (opening crates) and crafting(putting an item on another item or world object) are so blend, that they even don't need a tutorial.


OMG, never ever. My alignment is Loyal Neutral, I will not attack/murder/bully/steal innocent citizens. I never played GTA, and never will. There must be other ways to give fun to the players.
I hardly understand the pleasure the players can have in "murdering" some random 3D meshes with some random variables. It breaks all immersion for me.

I tried having fun pilling crates, picking up all of them, and destroying them, but the fun lasted about 3 minutes, because even there, there was not the slightest interaction and effects of my actions. I was not even overburdened after having 20 crates in my inventory, or couldn't gather any wooden chips from destroying them. I gave up...

And If Larian wants to make combat few and meaningfull, that is really fine with me, but give me something else to do between the fights then.

Hooking players: create a trailer that shows the main features of the game.

The problem is that this trailer will probably last 10 seconds, because the only original feature of DoS is the change (freeze/vapour/set fire to) in some environment(I cant even set the woods/plants ablaze, I can only lit oil...), and moving of a few objects (crates, mostly).

All other "features" are either boring, or not original.

The "Source Hunter's Manual" sounds great!
The manual of course must start with "Welcome to the wonderful world of source hunting!"

btw: since this seems to be a more prominent thread about the blog post, here is my idea (see also the thread in the general forums):

Educating players? What about educating developers from the feedback of 20 years of creating RPGs ? I am so mad at some design issues in this game.

In my first three or four playthrough, I don't use most of the possibilities of the game. Not because i don't get it, i simply don't need it. I focused on combating and a little questing. And from this perspective DOS is a clone from [enter your game here]. I get the rest of the game, after i start trying around to "broke the game" or "what is possible"

There are some simple ways to "gently" force the player to take a deeper-look in the possibilities the game offers: like DOS do with the "Burning-Boat"-Quest (i guess there are several game-journalist who don't even get this quest).

But i think, you can't put enough in the first hour, without a hypocritical - feeling.

A small landing sequence (how the booth source hunters get to the beach instead of directly landing in the harbor) should over a chance to show the best parts of the game, to get the player enough interested, what is going on and how the game works.

And you are a full scale troll. Why posting here then?

Because I really hope something or someone will wake up, and consider the many balance and design flaws there are in this game so far (flawed character creation and leveling, so-called world interactions, for the main part).
However, as always, this is mostly blind fanboy and fangirl land/forum, and this is fair, but there is no point in trying to wake people up.
You know, I am a very very average person. So I think like many many very very average persons. I don't think the hundred of fanboy/fangirls that are active on this forum here might be very representative of the many other average players. And I am loudly expressing my feelings, that Cyseal is boring, game is unbalanced, world interactions are almost absent.
But ultimately this is Larian call. They just have, among the concert of "this game is great", a few voices that say "hey, pay attention to this, because it sucks."
Moreover, I am indeed disapointed, because I expected the promised child, and I just see and play with a normal child. No surprises, no hooking, no back for more. I usually stop playing after 20 minutes of not finding anything on the stupid map, or leveling in such a blend way, or buying my skills in the merchant, or gathering crafting ingredients mostly in crates, or having to kill citizens for something to happen in the damn city, or having the undead packs kick my "knight" and "warrior" asses...
Then, my real true hope is that we are on alpha stage only, and things will get deeper and more balanced in beta, and once we reach a wider range of the game. After all, it is Larian that delivered some great RPG's (even if even the greatest will fall eventually...), full of great and inventive features, so why not this time ?
Then, if the character system and world interactions stays the poor same, the game will only be an "editor demonstrator" that I won't play much, before I start modifying it (I actually bought the editor more than the game. Remember how presenting the editor was the first kickstarter update ?)

Another example of fucked design:
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=484019#Post484016
Shouldn't it be the other way around ? The more you grow, the less there is to learn ? Instead, you start painfully with a few points, to gain more points as you get more levels.
I simply can't believe it. Everything is done to frustrate the player in the most unbalanced and illogical way.

And this is scary, because it is supposed to be an "improvment" over the 3 points/level.

I disagree. To be able to start with most points, one could as well be cheating. The ability to grow is just what keeps the player from quitting. Your logic sounds flawed to me?

Such a sad fact.