Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General The Random Loot system - A honest feedback

Let's face it, Erragal, beside being generally very unpleasant, obnoxiously patronizing, incredibly unaware of how ridiculous you can sound every time you try to act as if you had a superior understanding about any topic -across several forums, apparently; see your previous ramblings about what constitutes good writing- you also have the typical habit of rabid fanboys of seeing just what you want to see and constantly distorting reality to fit your bias.


That was quite obvious. The problem is: it shouldn't, because it doesn't work for the best. it trivializes itemization, it doesn't make it more interesting.


I explained perfectly clearly why i mentioned jagged Alliance 2.
Not to mention your whole rant was baseless garbage, since Ultima VII wasn't a case of "emergent gameplay" at all. If anything it's the very model of plot-driven RPG.
Oh, and it didn't even make any use of random loot, by the way, if not for minor things ("trash loot" as argued in the OP).

But what really matters is that I probably played it far more than you and I'm arguably the last person you should teach around about "going back to the old RPGs".
Maybe you are the one who should actually play it more and learn from it.

On top of that, playing and knowing that game would still be irrelevant in relation to the topic at hand.

I agree, it is a ridiculous argument. And yet, surprisingly, Tanist has used it in every loot argument from here to the Steam forums.


I dislike that save-scumming is both possible and rewarding. However, I also feel that the loot system should be improved so that players aren't feeling like they're screwed without save-scumming. I would love to see itemization at a point where players don't even feel like they need save-scumming, and for save-scumming to be removed out of the equation (and not even missed).

Save scumming is a side issue, as far as I'm concerned.
I don't like it, I'd love for the game to address the problem (i.e. fixed seeds generated once for playthrough at very least) but I have a problem with anonymous, generic, randomly generated loot that goes beyond the potential exploitation of save-scumming.

I simply really, really don't like compulsive rewarding at every step in RPGs.
I like when special items are unique, carefully dosed in numbers, deliberately placed, designed to stand out and properly balanced (or, in some rare case, deliberately unbalanced, just because it's fun).

And that's why reading Erragal trying to guilt-trip me with silly attempts of public blaming about my "dopamine-triggered approach to looting" strikes me as twice as weird.
Not just because it's an idiotic attitude in general, but specifically because the accusation is the exact opposite of the truth.

For the most part, that system is in place to limit quality to a given reward area. Only in places that would seem reasonable (Treasury Room) or off of a difficult/special encounter.

There are some areas where you see an odd amazing reward come from a place you wouldn't reason to be normal (ie a legendary sword in a crate, barrel, etc...), though to be honest... I don't seem to find the quality items in such locations all that often. Most are in reasonable locations and from such encounters.

Some tuning may be required to achieve what you desire and I am sure that will be the goal of many mods in the future.

The majority of my save scumming could have been removed just by there being a Dye seller in Cyseal who sold unlimited amounts of each color. Don't feel that's the most game breaking of requests~

Also skill books. Once I hit 18 I started save scumming the Emporium on level ups for equipment because I really wanted to min-max. In the desert I save scummed the Spider boss as my mage still had a Lvl 4 Robe as the best find and I found that silly. I did it here and there throughout the game for sure, but majority was definitely shops.

Some of it could have been avoided with less crappy modifiers, and I would definitely prefer there being guaranteed equipment types in certain places. Can still have random, improved, modifiers. Have Loic drop a robe, Diederic a 2HSword, etc. To me just a little addition like that would go a long way to making some bosses/treasure more meaningful. Like, I will probably replay the game eventually, and I won't go out of my way to hunt down the secrets ever again because why bother? They are all but guaranteed to be junk.

Really just don't want to see Rogue armor with +STR ever again, though.

Did you even read this before you hit submit? I'm going to do this for you once. Consider it a free credit hour.

"That was quite obvious. The problem is: it shouldn't, because it doesn't work for the best. it trivializes itemization, it doesn't make it more interesting."

See, verbiage is the key to saying a whole lot of nothing (The proverbial hot air). Deconstructing the first sentence "That was quite obvious." Sarcastic depreciation of the opposing individual's point of view: Contains no factual content and is a turn of phrase to imply that the speaker already knew something without ever showing cognition about the subject by delving deeper into critical analysis.

Next line of tripe: "The problem is: it shouldn't, because it doesn't work for the best." Highly nonspecific meandering propositional phrases. Purely opinion with no discernable rational cognitive platform on which your point of view rests. Inherently rigid and linear thought pattern as it shows no real data in which to have your opinion be countered. Intentionally non-specific to avoid being addressed with factual hooks. Gives opinion but offers no rational groundwork for the reader to relate to. Pushes the narrative into an ideological space as outside viewers can only agree or disagree with you on that framework as you've shown no logical progression.

The last line of this particular pantomime: "it trivializes itemization, it doesn't make it more interesting."
Statement of apparent opinion. You use the word trivialize but provide no deductive reasoning work as to how you arrived at this conclusion. When presenting a strong, controversial opinion it's customary if you are arguing from a place of discourse to provide your rationale as a courtesy; attempts to provide strong opinions with no details is in contemporary (2014) parlance 'trolling'. A conclusion with no data is a conclusion derived from emotion and intuition alone. Intuition is a viable thought process only when you can then work backwards along your train of thought to reproduce the rational cognitive work that produced it. Very similar to your last line in that you make statements of extreme opinion with no data.

Now lets examine your personal attack of me in detail so we can deconstruct the ways in which you failed to understand the information available to you, and how next time you can better construct your personal attacks on the internet.

"Let's face it, Erragal, beside being generally very unpleasant, obnoxiously patronizing, incredibly unaware of how ridiculous you can sound every time you try to act as if you had a superior understanding about any topic -across several forums, apparently; see your previous ramblings about what constitutes good writing- you also have the typical habit of rabid fanboys of seeing just what you want to see and constantly distorting reality to fit your bias."

One single sentence. So, the whole idea that you would criticize my understanding of composition and style (A weird obsessive reference to a post on a completely different topic...that OCD coming out in very unsubtle ways) in this amateurish run-on sentence is laughable.

Looking more towards the details of your 'content' is more sinister. You look at very detailed arguments of the merits of a particular system as 'rabid fanboyism'. There are real details you could actually attempt to argue with me about.

As an example a realistic argument that HAS been raised; an alternate version of events where you approach this as if my point of view even existed: "Erragal, do you believe that the game already offers a superflous number of tactical options w/respect to scrolls/arrows/skill diversity that the benefits of all this randomized loot may be lost in the shuffle?"

"Excellent point Tuco. I'd say that's why I agree with many people who are asking more for a slight uptick in a few named items at certain points and some adjustments to the way the game seeds things so they don't feel quite as random; On the other hand I believe if you look at the game from an emergent narrative point of view instead of trying to lock it in the box marked "Scripted RPG epic with fixed itemization" your opinion is informed from you will be able to enjoy the diversity of experiences randomization provides both in rewards and in the tactical necessity of adaptation that results."

That's a world that exists, sir. It is your inability to see outside a rigid framework that results in the garbage you choose to spew instead. You want what you want and details that would get in the way of your point of view are shadowy blips in the rearview mirror as cognitive dissonance wills you forward.

So forgive me if I sometimes seem like I'm 'talking down to you'. It's hard not to think poorly of someone that presents themselves the way you've chosen to and ignores data in favor of impulse (All of which has been detailed here).

PS: Ultima VII is highly relevant as the non sequential nature of the quests as well as the high interactivity are a huge component of emergent narrative. Interactivity is valuable for reinforcement of a player's connection with his game world. When you combine interactivity with randomization you create a world that can create original and organic experiences without the input of a designers prior intentions. It's important to understand how these elements all coalesce in order to inform the player about his place/experience within the game world; how they cement his experiences as uniquely personal without bragging about it.

Conversely no matter how many repetitions of the game you went through it's never actually telling you that it's doing this. To assume that you would understand how it works because you've played it the most is a logical fallacy. You must actually think about the way these mechanics interact and communicate with the player before you'll value them.

Talk about much ado about nothing...

I wish you could go back to read your first reply to me in this very thread, read once again,and then be at *least* a bit ashamed about how you are crying over the fact that I wouldn't be respectful of my interlocutor right now.


It's a tragic parade of you being pompous, patronizing, judgemental, confrontational and above all ignorant, ridiculously wrong in your assumptions and comically unaware of it.

And then you act surprised and almost outraged when I point how unpleasant can be to interact with you.
And please, let me point that being so verbose and long-winded in making vacuous remarks doesn't make them more grounded in reality.

I.E.
"Oh oh oh, see? Verbiage is the key, sarcastic depreciation, blah blah blah".
Dude, I just pointed I don't care what they wanted to do, I care about the fact I don't think it worked.
And I spent several posts arguing more in detail WHY I think this system "trivializes itemization". Just because you failed to acknowledge them it doesn't mean I must be committed to work full time to offer you a recap at every single reply.

You also didn't make "very detailed arguments" in favour of this system as you are claiming. You ranted, in your usual long-winded way, of tangent arguments like different games and emerging gameplay that hardly relate to the loot system.

No, Ultima VII is NOT relevant for two main reasons.
First, I never argued against "the non sequential nature of quests" in D: OS. If anything is one of my favourite things about the game.
Second, Ultima VII didn't have randomized itemization (and actually barely any itemization at all)so your point about the strength of the game's structure fails completely to address and support the claim that randomized loot is an added value for this kind of RPG.

I'm used to being ignored, but... I quote myself and add: VERY much ado about nothing.

I agree, all of this really can be handled via mods. I mean seriously, the game is already out, it is a feature that is already set and has been around with these games since the company began. People have voiced their opinion, the issue is done. Anyone wanting change can put their money where their mouth is and mod it, otherwise all they are doing here is trying to create drama.

And there we go.





Tanist, maybe you'd be interested in (to use your phrase) "putting your money where your mouth is" and showing everyone how to handle this through mods? It just seems like it might be easier and more effective than trying to convince everyone they don't want this every time a thread on the subject pops up.

Piss off troll.

Actually, there's nothing particularly unhealthy about arguing after a release about what you like and what you don't about a game.
That, at least, generally speaking. Until you have someone like Erra charging like a raging bull and throwing at you not-so-subtle insults and patronizing remarks just to stress that he really, really doesn't like to hear about your opinion.

Some have issues, yes. Your opinion isn't the problem. In fact, I don't even think you discussing it is a problem. I don't have a problem with your discussion. In the end, this issue is more of one that needs to be solved through mods. So discussion is good, as long as it stays logical and honest. Not all of these do.

So that's a "no" on your whole "putting your money where your mouth is" advice, then?

This sums up my own opinion rather nicely. I haven't save-scummed to get better loot, but I *have* done it to get shopkeepers to sell decent skillbooks and I'm not at all ashamed of it; a varied skill set makes this game infinitely more enjoyable and I think it would be asinine to let a game cheat me out of having fun with its enjoyable features due to bad dice rolls. But between chests, enemy drops, and shops I'll often go long stretches where I sell the treasure I can't use in order to accumulate gold I can't use which, to me, constitutes a flawed loot system.

That's my two cents, and thus have I emptied my pockets of everything left I'm willing to share on the topic. When all's said and done this a minor blemish on an otherwise great game, and I'd rather spend my time playing it than continuing to argue with people who are resolute at best and utterly unpleasant at worst.

Tanist, learn some new vernacular and get off your high horse. The only one appearing to be a "troll" in the interactions between you two, is you.

Looks like he achieved his troll and got you all invloved.


Gyson has a very common behavior. He starts a discussion and then resorts to fallacies and various personal attacks when his argument is challenged. If you pay in kind, he plays the victim. He repeats this until someone finally moves on and stops responding to him in his thread only to move to the next thread you are in to try and continue his trolling. Notice he has walked into multiple threads where I was discussing with another and immediately continued his conflict from the previous thread.

I stopped responding to him, yet he kept butting in with "Oh, don't bother with him, it is typical Tanist" crap. He seeks this conflict, not I.

Yes, I respond to him in a rude manner. It should stop with him realizing that I won't respond to him in any other fashion. He knows that each time he responds to me, that I will provide that response....

Answer me this. If he knows that this is what I will say every time to him, that there will be no constructive discussion because I have explained to him that I will respond to him exactly as such every time he attempts, who is the troll? My responses stop the moment he stops trolling me. I mean, a troll seeks conflict. Isn't that what he is doing here? If a child sticks their hand in the fire over and over again, who is at fault for being burned? The child or the fire? Gyson need only keep his hand out of the fire, but... well... it is oh so much more fun for a troll to poke the cat.

By the way, he could have contacted me in PM's anytime if he was serious about resolving our issues. He hasn't. He wants to troll.

I will for the sake of people tiring of seeing those responses place him back on ignore. I took him off a while ago thinking that his behavior was just a particular bad argument we had. So, he is back on ignore, but that won't stop him from trolling me through others.

Yes, yes, you've made this abundantly clear now in the last umpteenth threads you've carried this petty post into. It was the one-armed man, not you, we got it.

To be perfectly honest, every time you make an argument like this about me I've been thinking "Wait, is Tanist describing me or himself?", because you seem to emulating all the behaviors you've been accusing me of.

Just because you don't respond to me doesn't mean I'm not going to respond a discussion you're participating in, or even respond to a comment you made directly. I think you may have some odd impression about how ignoring someone is supposed to work.


I guess expecting you not to respond in a rude manner in the first place is expecting too much?


Two things: 1) PMs work both ways. 2) I have suggested you take your issues with me to PMs before (rather than cluttering up the forum with them), and you did not. I personally don't have a huge interest in talking about your feelings, but if that's what you really wanted to do the option was always in your hands.


Yes, two months ago you made a big announcement (in an loot itemization discussion, similar to this one) that you were placing me on ignore. You then spent the next 4 days (in that same thread) criticizing me in responses to other posters. And then by the 5th day you were responding directly to my comments again. It was a stunning display of exactly how not to put someone on ignore. Well done, really.

And who exactly is trolling whom through others again? I respond directly to you. You're the one making comments about me in your responses to others.


Ok, you're acting like a nut now.

Deranged fanboys are still having dopamine high after the release.
Give them two weeks till their Vitamin G(iveafug) level drop off a bit.
Right now they're still foaming on the mouth and with all that Mt.Dew smearing all over the keyboard, you have no hope of having your valid feedbacks even considered.

All this Wall of Fan Communism demands you shut the hell up and play the game.
You already bought the game, like it or leave it. Because Larian is a poor, small-time developer so it's unfair to criticize, where will the future children of Larian developers study and what will they eat if you continue to force them to add new selfish features post-game release?

It's that sort of attitude that drove me to treat this forum with disdain and deliver every 'selfish' feedback with venom that is fully deserved of such diabetic community.

Everything's gotta be sweet, OR ELSE!