Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Please Help w/Character Creation Choices

Hello and thanks for reading.

Let me start by saying that I have the awful habit of agonizing over RPG character creation and attempting to "metagame" my choices so I pick what will be maximally effective. My fear is that I'll make decisions I'll regret later or, worse, will make the game unplayable.

In the interest of avoiding this, I've read a whole bunch of beginner's guides and the like. But I've struggled to get definitive answers on a number of critical areas and I'm hoping you can help.

One thing I'd ask is that you avoid any spoilers in your responses I'm just looking for general guidance.

1. To steal or not to steal? Multiple guides strongly advise stealing. I'm fine with this, but does it just give you a critical edge you need or make coin not matter and seriously undermine the challenge? I'm a big believer that a balanced challenge keeps games fun.

2. Are non-combat Personality abilities worth investing points in? I'm inclined to invest in skills like charisma to get the most out of NPC interactions, leadership to buff the party and bartering, if I choose the honest path and not steal (see #1 above) (and I don't know about "lucky charm"). But many RPGs don't really reward you for these social skills can I afford to take them here or should I focus on combat abilities?

3. Should my main characters know Craftsmanship abilities or leave this to companions or hirelings? Crafting and blacksmithing look like good fun, but are these better left to companions or hirelings so my two main characters can focus on combat? What about loremaster and telekinesis, since these are abilities that get used "in the field" are these worthwhile for main characters?

4. Are any of the "Nasty Deeds" abilities worth taking? I know you can destroy most (maybe all) locks if you're willing to invest the time and won't get caught, but if you plan on going the thieving route (see #1 above), it seems like lockpicking would be very satisfying (especially as I've read that some folks have gone to lengths like carrying locked chests around since they don't have the skill, which seems silly). Beyond stealing, sneaking has obvious uses for scouting and in combat. Does the coin you'll earn sneaking essentially make pickpocketing irrelevant?

5. What are the advantages/disadvantages of stealth vs. invisibility? The game includes both sneaking(the "Nasty Deeds" ability) and multiple-use invisibility via the Scoundrel skill "Walk in Shadows" and the Aerotheurge skill "Invisibility". Is one better than the other for stealing and/or scouting? Is one better than the other for combat? I know certain talents, like Guerrilla (50% damage bonus), only work with sneaking/stealth; are there any that only work with invisibility? And are there any non-talent bonuses for attacking from stealth and/or invisible (I know sneak attacks are 100% crit, but you don't actually need to be in stealth or invisible for this, just positioned behind the enemy with a dagger)? Any clarification you can offer on this would be greatly appreciated.

At this point I'm inclined to create a bow-using scout character (modified ranger w/stealth or invisibility and lockpicking) which is why I'm particularly interested in learning about non-backstab attack bonuses from stealth or invis. and a wizard (glass cannon-type with elemental damage focus). Obviously, if I want to cover non-combat abilities (e.g., leadership, loremaster, lockpicking, sneaking) with both that's going to leave me pretty thin on the crucial combat abilities. This is why it'd be greatly helpful to learn if they are useful or not and/or whether they can easily be covered by companions/henchman and so are wasted on the two main characters.

Looking forward to your feedback. And any tips on topics I didn't cover above that are well worth considering are certainly welcome.

Thanks,

Geezer

1. I stole pretty much nothing and had more money than I knew what to do with for most of the game. That said, I invested heavily in crafting which allows you to to pretty much print money.

2. Leadership is great, you want a party member to max it. Bartering I took, but I never really tested to see how much things cost without. As said, I had more money than I knew what to do with. Charisma gets you a bit of bonus XP and makes some quests easier and more fun. I'd advise a few points into it on whichever of your characters has Pet Pal and make sure you always have that character be the one to talk to NPCs. Take Pet Pal.

3. Jahan is a very good crafter. Let him do your crafting. There's no reason not to.

4. Pickpocketing helps in a few quests, but I've no real comment on it. Sneaking is very good. Lockpicking is a lot more satisfying than breaking things open, and if you go the break things open route you need to repair your weapon a lot.

5. Never tried real stealth, always just went invisible when necesarry. No comment here.

1. To steal or not to steal? I didn't steal. But then I was trying to play a good guy.

2. Are non-combat Personality abilities worth investing points in? I didn't invest in these but had leadership anyway from my character traits. Didn't seem worth wasting points on.

3. Should my main characters know Craftsmanship abilities or leave this to companions or hirelings? I just preferred doing this myself, so I put points in crafting and blacksmithing, but I didn't have to put point up to 5 since you will find items that will buff these skills. So I'd get points up to about 3, then just put on some bracers or belt, whatever to get the points to 5 as needed

4. Are any of the "Nasty Deeds" abilities worth taking? I found an indestructable club early on. Perfect for chest bashing. It's also easy to just carry around a cheap club or club with nails (you can craft these yourself) to use. I wouldn't put points into these.

5. What are the advantages/disadvantages of stealth vs. invisibility? There is a nice archer skill that gives you a bonus for attacking from stealth. It's good to have someone good at it.

Fantastic definitive responses. Thanks, BardicLasher and LeBurns.

Hoping to get more input, plus please feel free to add anything else noteworthy that will help guide my choices.

Much appreciated,

Geezer

Its not stealing when the game world keeps turning a blind eye to it most of the time. Think of it as appropriating resources needed for the investigation.
We are not in Kansas. Meaning, not worth fretting about much. If you dont want to dont, otherwise do.

Charisma is most useful for RPS dialogue battles so if you want to focus on combat the most you dont need it. I still didnt do a completely charisma, non combat abilities focused run. who knows what Larians hid there... (lots of quest and situations do have a non-combat option)

Nasty deeds are mostly worthless.

Arent stealth and invisibility branches on the same tree? Or rather, fruits on the same branch? Sweet delicious fruits. yum.

Best advice i can give: dont try to min-max the perfect single playthrough.
Game is meant to be played multiple times, solo and co-op.

Experiment, let the dice roll, live wild. (of course you wont, meh)

I really appreciated this post, Hiver.

Taking it point by point you're quite right about the game world turning a blind eye to stealing. Honestly, I think this is a major shortcoming in games of this nature (Elder Scrolls, etc.), in that they include the notion of ownership and theft but enforcement never has any teeth. Larian actually goes further than most games in having NPCs chastise you and get you to cough up goods when spotted (and you lose influence with them), but they make it quite easy to not be spotted...and then there's no arm of the law to meaningfully enforce it.

Perhaps it's extreme, but maybe games shouldn't provide anything to steal until they conjure up a punishment that feels grave enough to greatly discourage the behavior (or at least balances the rewards of plunder with added difficulty somehow). Otherwise, if you don't steal (as in Divinity OS), you're essentially forfeiting free money. The only barrier at that point is the player's restraint in the interest of playing "good, law-abiding" characters.

While I am more combat than RP focused, the dialog and RP aspects of Divinity OS are quality enough that I'd say a few charisma points are warranted. Thanks for clarification on that.

Nasty deeds are worthless. But sneaking is a nasty deed and you seem to indicate ("yum") that it appeals to you. Lockpicking does seem to be a convenience and aids realism (vs. chopping at someone's back door for the equivalent of 20 minutes while they're home...and apparently oblivious).

Stealth and invisibility do appear to be interchangeable initially and both are probably equivalent for certain tasks. But, actually, the game does grant certain bonuses to sneaking that are not afforded to being invisible. For example, the Guerrilla talent gives you double damage to attacks made while sneaking (this does not work with invisibility). I'm wondering if there are other instances of this as well.

"Experiment and live wild..." Ah, that is such sage advice (and I say this with all seriousness). I wish I had the will to take it more often (the few times I have were absolutely worth it). It's some sort of a horrible gamer's affliction, I tell you.

Thanks,

Geezer

P.S. Please keep the responses coming I really enjoy hearing others' points of view.

Every question of the OP is answered already in previous treads but once again:

1.Stealing/pickpocketing could help at the beginning.
"2. Are non-combat Personality abilities worth investing points in?" - Charisma is worthless,some items with charisma could be crafted, same for Barter- boots, amulet and trait- all you need even if you buy all the books from Teller of secrets. Leadership is a combat ability and gives you a big advantage and I'm afraid it'll be nerfed although this isn't mmo. Lucky charm is totaly useless.
3. Companions should be treated with the same care as the main characters, don't give them lousy talents just because they are called henchmen.
Your main character is usually better to learn craft/ blacksmithing because of a free point from a trait and you need to invest 2 hard points in crafting and 3- in BS, the rest is from a trait, bracers and belt. A mage is not very appropriate for such a role because he needs to invest in many other abilities.
Loremaster- 5 points needed- 1 from trait, 3 from an amulet and rings and 1 hard point to invest.
Telekinesis- I never bother with this one.
"4. Are any of the "Nasty Deeds" abilities worth taking?"- Yes and only sneaking, if you want guerilla.
Lockpicking and pickpocketing are absolutely worthless.
"5. What are the advantages/disadvantages of stealth vs. invisibility? " Sneak synergies with Guerilla talent, can be braked. Invisibility is almost guaranteed stealth and you can use a scroll for it, I found it useful for stealing and some special moments but you don't want spoilers.

"Obviously, if I want to cover non-combat abilities (e.g., leadership, loremaster, lockpicking, sneaking) with both that's going to leave me pretty thin on the crucial combat abilities. This is why it'd be greatly helpful to learn if they are useful or not and/or whether they can easily be covered by companions/henchman and so are wasted on the two main characters."- Only lockpicking is truly non combat ability. Loremaster helps in combat to see the weaknesses of the enemies especially for the first play through. And again: everything wasted on companions is wasted for the whole party so treat them equally. Because of the free points from traits, only the main two characters can have traits, it's usually better to have some abilities on them like barter, loremaster, leadership, craft...

I have to say its a bit of a pleasure seeing someone recognizing a sage advice when they see it.

Usually most posters asking for this kind of advice think im just trying to be funny or that im not really considering what they wanted.

It is a horrible gamer affliction and i hope you get over it, for the betterment of your gameplay and time with OS.

It will help you with that itself.
If you let it.

One of the beauties of the game is that it allows you to find your own way through without requesting almost any min-maxing and powergaming. The possibility space of OS is vast.
(well... compared to other games, certainly and within its own scope, style and setting of course)

I dont want to bore anyone with my builds and whatnot but i never took any of the most obviously powerful talents and abilities, i made utterly unconventional hybrids, (dexterity or strength based, sword and shield rogue mages that dont ever backstab, for example) played with two source hunters only, without lone wolf or glass cannon, etc, etc - and its all been really great worthwhile fun.

As for stealth and invisibility answer, i meant it in the context of a stealing, stealthing, backstabbing kind of a character build and playstyle, if thats your style.
Lets say that invisibility is a great backup or addition for the moments when stealth fails and it opens additional options and possibilities in the gameplay.


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If i do manage to make my mod, the stealing will not be so easy anymore. I have a great idea how to do that but i dont want to spoil it.
Additionally if NPCs could be made to recognize their own items it would help too to make it look less goofy. It is fun to sell their own property to NPCs but it does get a bit old after the first few times.

Xiery, please know that I did quite a bit of searching in articles and forums for answers to my queries (and while I received a lot of good background and some direction, none of it felt as definitive as your response). Since it was already covered information, thanks especially for taking the time to repeat it for me. Very useful.

I am particularly curious about one of the perhaps finer point of sneaking vs. invisibility. I believe I read somewhere that attacking from stealth grants a bonus (possibly a critical hit bonus). The problem is most people relate this to backstabbing, which results in an automatic critical hit. But I'm interested in attacking from stealth with a bow (or even a spell). And I'm wondering, beyond the Guerrilla talent, does any bonus apply when you attack from stealth (and is the same bonus granted when attacking while invis.)?

Hiver, thanks for another great reply. Rest assured that I will work on my "condition."

- Geezer

Attacking while being stealthed or invisible does not grant any bonus unless you have traits or talents that specify they do.

Invisible does not count as being stealted so as an example you could have the guerrillia talent and while invisible you decide to use an auto attack with a bow. This attack will NOT receive the +50% bonus damage from guerrillia because guerrillia specifies that it has to be stealth.

Guerrillia + stealth + bow does work and means that you will receive the +50% damage bonus.

Spells + guerrillia do NOT work, and as extra information the bully talent does NOT work with spells either.

With kind regards,

Rashar.

Thanks for clearing that up, Rashar. I swear I saw some sort of combat advantage coming from attacking while sneaking, but perhaps the person was just referring to guerrilla.

I suppose the other advantage to stealth in combat is enemies ignore you.

- Geezer

To be able to backstab, you need a talent that enables it. Stealth itself is not enough. But it is required to get that talent.
Then the guerrilla talent enhances the damage of it.

There are other relatively smaller uses for stealth in the game, yes.


oh, right... spells always hit and do their own damage versus enemies resistances. They can only fail to execute if you dont have enough points invested in that type of magic which gives some % penalties
when you try to use them.

I agree with most of the advice given here but I'd like to share a few things that will hopefully save you some time.

1. If you plan on having a Ranger or Ranged type character make him/her your crafter, this will make crafting special arrows much less time consuming.

2. Give anyone who attacks with a weapon (non-mages) 1 point in blacksmithing and a repair hammer. Weapons go through durability pretty fast and letting everyone repair their own stuff saves the hassle and time of transferring items.

3. Most people will tell you that lockpicking is useless, but i disagree. Some chests can't be broken open, and some chests have a ridiculous amount of HP, lockpicking is just faster and can be done while stealthed if I remember correctly. Sure you can get by without it but after a couple full and several partial playthroughs I would strongly recommend it.

4. Telekinesis is another great time saving ability to have on characters who loot stuff (like your crafter and/or loremaster). I haven't found much use for it in combat, but there are thousands of things you want to loot in this game and 1 point in Telekinesis makes you walk less to pick them up. Huge time saver!


You'll find you get plenty of these stats on gear and from traits, but I feel the game doesn't require min/maxing from a combat perspective. Spending points in things that make the non-combat stuff more enjoyable . . or simply less agonizing, are very much worthwhile IMO.

Wonderful reply, Nicdanger, and one I'll certainly take to heart. These are my thoughts exactly -- if it makes the game more "realistic" and mitigates frustration (like attacking a locked door 20 times), I'm all for it unless every last point must be allocated to combat to be successful (in which case Larian did something very, very wrong).

- Geezer

I did not see a door or chest except one which wouldn't brake with 2-3 hits, cost-free and much faster then using a lockpick. Telekinesis is handy of course but you always have 2-3 items with it and the points are not abundant.

This and previous post are in response to:

Xiery, you're absolutely right. You responded with specific, useful advice/info. to my explicit request.

Now I can see that I'm sending mixed signals, flipping from one side (tell me how to avoid a suboptimal build) to the other (tell me it's okay to build how I please even if it's suboptimal).

I'm sure you've discerned my true position by now...it's in the middle. Before playing, I'd read several beginner's guides that cautioned not to spread your character too thin -- that D:OS is a game that rewards focus. My fear was that I'd cripple my character with useless abilities. Your info. helped me avoid that.

At the same time, learning that spending a small portion of points for RP purposes, convenience or even pure whimsy won't gimp your character to ineffectiveness is also valuable. It gives me a little room to breathe easy that I don't have to min-max with a theorycrafter's precision.

Nicdanger also made it clear -- as you did -- that many of these abilities can be obtained via gear and traits. Very helpful, and I kept this in mind when I built my duo.

So, I apologize for sending mixed signals...but I'm also glad to have heard both sides.

Respectfully,

Geezer

No need to apologize, English is not my native language and I hardly sense any mixed signals.
Contrary to my advices I suggest you do not stick 100% to "guides" like mine, otherwise it is likely that you get bored in the middle of the game with overpowered characters.
Cheers!

You read completely wrong beginners guides.

The game was made to be classless, actually and to support hybrid builds first and foremost. The current state of it is due to several big changes during the last few weeks of the beta, going from empowering hybrids too much to empowering focused strict classes to much and back and forth... which ended in the system like the current one, that unintentionally swings back to making focus builds a bit more advantageous then it should.

The scales are tipped a bit. Not much and it could have been done better with more time but there wasnt any and the game shipped.

However... hybrid builds and those that spread skills to non-combat skills are very viable and much more fun to play, because of diversity of options they have.

Imho it all depends on main gameplay choice that you have to do at character creation: pair or crowd.

Pair means only two source hunters, first takes lone wolf + pet pal, second takes lone wolf + scientist, invests 2 in blacksmithing and 1 in crafting to get 5 in both right after reaching cyceal at the beginning of the game.
Your PCs won't need to steal anything to become disgustingly rich quite fast, xp loss is too small to be worth mentioning.

Crowd means no lone wolfs and any builds that don't copy Madora and Jahan (who is a good crafter btw).

You can just relax and go with any builds and any play style - in the middle of the game you'll be able to redistribute everything and rebuild your character in any effecient way, having knowledge of what you need and what you don't need. The game is really great.

Alright, you've won me over (thank you)...I'm going to just relax about it. If anything, I'd rather the game be a bit too hard than too easy. Hard is generally surmountable through the application of creative strategy or a acquiring a bit of extra firepower in the form of potions, scrolls, etc. And there's that wonderful feeling of accomplishment that comes with surmounting an obstacle. Too easy is much harder to fix unless you want to gimp yourself by deliberately setting boundaries (don't take these feats, never use summons, avoid certain equipment, etc.), and that is a pain to implement and often feels lousy.

So here goes...I'm mentally tossing out the metagaming and playing purely by my whim and wits. I'm a wild man!

Thanks,

Geezer