Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity - Original Sin - General Why are "Bows" and "Crossbows" separate skills?

I understand separate skills for armor and shields. I get the split between 1- and 2-handed melee. The split between bows and crossbows seems too arbitrary to warrant 2 skills. Expert Marksman works on bows and crossbows. (And, yes, Man-at-Arms works with all melee weapons.)

May we condense these skills into one, such as Ranged Weapons?

You have a point, but I think the intent is to make it seem more of a choice which to focus on. It's to make you think about which one you want to focus on If you could swap between them at will, the distinction would seem less.

To me, it's a ranged weapon. I generally prefer bows due to their lower AP cost. Unlike, say, Scoundrel and Man-at-Arms, the distinction is much less.

Shooting a bow is nothing like using a crossbow, I do both and have since I was a little kid, and the projectiles dont even really behave similarily, bows require strength of body and lots of practice to be able to judge the aim point and a crossbow really does not, no they are extremely different. There is more to it, but that alone is enough.

I understand the point but I think it should stay the way it is.

I prefer bows as well, and think crossbows should be changed anyway, they should require a lower dexterity to use, but should have a higher action-point cost to use ( and probably should have a better chance to hit say 10% or 20% than a bow) to reflect the long time it takes to span a crossbow and load a bolt then aim and shoot. Crossbows already casue more damage and they by all estimations almost always should.

Larian has this mostly right, except the AP cost and dex requirement on crossbows.

They take 6 AP a shot now. How much more AP should they need? I think the reasoning behind higher dex is not because of logic, but balance, because they do so much more damage than bows.

I am fine with the higher damage than a bow because bows should shoot way more frequently, but crossbows shoot way too often! Maybe 6 AP is good, but then that means enema's have too many AP, honestly a crossbow shooting more than once a round is absurd, unless it is a bloody Chu ko Nu, which these are not. I would rather it stay as is, than have crossbows shoot even more often, and I definately do not think Bow and Crossbow should be subsumed into just one skill.

I would like it if crossbows should be the missile weapon for low dex missile weapon users...

Swing a sword, takes a blink of an eye right? The question is, how many times you can swing a sword until I load the crosbow?

5 times, 10 times I guess.
There is a clue for proper AP requirement for crossbows.

How ever, the hit is basicaly guaranteed on 15m distance. When I get the crossbow to my hands for first time, I was able to hit a DVD disk at the 50m range after 3 hours training. Also armor mitigation should be lower. Crossbow stopping power is phenomenal. Only one reason why modern crossbows are not widely used in shop/bank robbery is, that poor employe do not know what that "archaic" thing can do so he would not be scared enough.

Regarding the Weapon skills in the game, well they are just placeholders. Put a point to them only when you have all skills and saving throws maxed. I think that combine boows and crossbows to - ranged weapons. THen combine one haded and two handed as melle weapons makes thinks easy for casual gamers and dont change a think for anyone else.

Personaly I would prefer wepon focused talents. We have one for ranged. So lets contiune and add:
The Highlader talent>> two hand edge specialist. +105 to hit, damage. +10 points to defense
The Stabbey >> dagger specialist. 20% chance attack cost 1point only. +10%hit
Fencer >> +15 points to defense, if the oponent miss and used a regular wepon (not claws, tooth) there is a 15% chance for attack of oporutnity.

NO the reason bank robbers dont use crossbows is that they are not concealable and have a horrendously slow rate of fire and reloading after one shot leaves the user vulnerable to the pissed off old lady and her purse with a brick in it, basicly it is not much of a force multiplier in CQB. LOL.

Thrusting is quicker than slashing, chopping or hacking and usually more deadly...but I get your point, I am not quibbling.

Okay you might do that same feat with a bow consitently if you practice for 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years or even longer, if you are in inconsistent learner and practice poorly.

Penetration is a function of the "weight" of the bow, in other words how stiff the bow is, and how much body strength or mechanical muscle is required to draw the string back to the chest/ear ( shortbow or Longbow) or nut-catch on a crossbow, some medieval longbows have a weight in the 220+ lb range (very rare these days) some of the heavier arbalests used in the same period had a weight of 450+ pounds or more using a steel bowstave or whalebone and wood composite prod. Arrow/quarrel heads also have a hell of a lot to do with the penetration and size of the wound channel and therefore how much damage it inflicts.

Admittedly the crossbows in D:OS look as if they have steel staves which would require a windlass, crannequin, goatsfoot or at the very least a belt hook to span after each shot, my current crossbow has a stock that unlocks pulling the string back to battery but it is much lighter in weight than an arbalest.

right, that is why the old lady spotted must be pinned to the wall by the first shot. :-o

Well, what about add a rule. Shooting or casting provokes atack of oportunity. It does even if the oponent dont have a skill oportunist. So this way, rangers need to spend points to moving rather than shooting. Also make it feel that brute force of melee weapon has an advantage in close quarters to ranged. Which now is completely missing. This solution might be more game-like acceptable than realistic ratio melle-range attacks.

Basically, melle char comes to ranger. Then ranger choose run away and face attack of opportunity if the melee has the skill. Or shoot at point blank and receive attack of opportunity certainly.

Good show!

yeah opportunity attacks really do not work like they should, nor as well and as frequently...I am surprised and dismayed at how often someone runs past my Knight, retreats out of reach or takes a shot when he is in reach with his Greatsword, none of that should happen without consequences.

And it is really unreliable and inconsistent...the other day I was fighting Braccus and he stepped forward to hit me with his axe, and my Knight hit him with his Zweihander as he stepped into range, I just about went crazy with joy....that has never happened before, but it definately should!

Actually I think a melee weapon has a huge advantage in that it does far more damage than a missile weapon, all things being done to enhance the performance of both or either....not that an arrow isnt deadly-dangerous but...would you rather get hit with a pointy twig moving pretty fast or 8 pounds of razor sharp steel propelled by massive trained muscles?

SO I kind of want to poll the forum what is the most damage ( and be accurate here) you have ever seen a melee weapon do? and a Missile weapon? or a spell? Please list extenuating factors, the enemy, the weapon, some pertinent info on the skills, buffs and magic enhancement of the item.

I think Melee weapons should cause the most damage, then missile weapons, and finally spells.

I will elaborate on why I think that ratio is correct but I am curious is my experience and tactics and methods what everybody is using etc?

It would be great to have chance to have crossbow for just one shot prepared before fight for your meele character. I think sometimes it was used like that (you have crossbow to gain advantage at long range but don't have time so you just drop it on ground and draw your sword) in this case, it shouldn't need much dexterity (because crossbows were sometimes very heavy)

Definately. Lower the dex requirement for x-bows, but increase the ap cost to use it, or maybe have a seperate load action for it with a hi ap cost. But never should more than one shot per round be possible. I also would like to use crossbows in the manner you describe, you dont have to be freaking Legolas or robin hood to use a crossbow, they are heavy and unwieldy and godawful slow to reload....dex requirement of like 5 or 6.

How much AP should crossbows take per shot?

Let's do a thought exercise. Six AP is apparently too few, so let's say Crossbows now take 8 AP per shot. This means that a crossbow user will need a minimum Speed of NINE just to fire one shot per round. If they want to actually move at all, they'll need at least 11 SPD to let them move 1 AP's worth. So whatever a user "saves" in DEX, they'll have to spend it in SPD instead. This is already making crossbows less appealing.


But first, let's take a look at how bows and crossbows ACTUALLY compare.

I am looking at one of each, both level 11 and non-magical.

A Knightly Yew Bow requires 9 DEX and costs 4 AP per shot, and does 47-82 damage.
A Steel Crossbow requires 11 DEX and costs 6 AP per shot, and does 82-119 damage.

The average damage for the bow is 64.5, or 16.125 damage per AP.
The average damage for the crossbow is 100.5, or 16.75 damage per AP.

If we were to up the AP cost of crossbows to 8 per shot, that would lower their average damage to 12.5625 damage per AP. In order to balance this, you would need to compensate by upping the damage of crossbows per shot. producing numbers like this:

A Knightly Yew Bow requires 9 DEX and costs 4 AP per shot, and does 47-82 damage.
A Steel Crossbow requires 7 DEX and costs 8 AP per shot, and does 105-152 damage.

This might also be of interest (emphasis mine):

http://steamcommunity.com/app/230230/discussions/0/540736965796820518/#c540737414580034775

Wrong. As the user could try shot crossbow himself, he realizied the know issue. Crossbow is EASY to handle EASY to hit but has LOW rate of fire regardless user skill. Crosbow has High damage per shot, amasing accuracy and penetration. But bow, in the high skilled hands has greater damage per second, becouse of great rate of fire. Tales about expert archers who has 9 arrows on the air are not just tales.
Dex requirements for bow should be the one from crossbow.
Crossbow dex requirement should be half of bow.
Any Crossbow adds 10% bonus to hit, also gets first quick shot.
That one is interesting.Extending idea>>>
If you have crossbow in your current weapon set (in your hands)at the cmbat begining, you get discount AP cost to the very first shot. We expect that you are loaded.
Precise numbers>>>
Crossbow -load&shot 8 AP
Bow -load&shot 4 AP
Crossbow - the very first shot in the combat 3 AP

Generaly crossbows get plain 10% to hit.
QuickDraw talent -1AP to all.


Result: Hero warrior reckoning with crossbow in the hands, shot on sight for 3 AP then rearm to TwoHanded for 3AP then continue butchering for 4AP per swing.

Crossbow is used by hero warriors or dagger boys for combat starters. It is favoured weapon of NPC low skilled fallowers in groups as main weapon. Crossbows are not used by any high dex archers becouse of low rate of fire. However, there is a space for unique items like Wiliem Tell's crossbow :special ability AP -3.

Drawback>> poison play -- > expert ranger with QuickDraw starts with crosssbow, after the first shot, rearm to bow. :-/ Higher rearm cost fixes it. (4-5AP is adequate, I think)

Yeah up the damage on crossbow that is fine and acceptable/balanced, but the rate of fire and dex requirements are just not good, right or proper, yeah its a game but some things should have a hint of realism to them, otherwise lets just use assault rifles and grenades. Bows wouldnt be unbalanced because though each shot does less damage you will get more shots, so I like and agree with that.

I actually think Rgeo's idea about a low first shot ap cost, and a high reload cost is the right way to go, you can ( in real life) keep a crossbow spanned and loaded, and actually for an extended period of time and it can be shot with only one hand if the range is short anad the persons strength is sufficient to hold it with one hand, never gonna do that with a bow. Crossbows should also get a small (say +10-20%) accuracy bonus, this helps to offset its horrendously slow rate of fire, coupled with a high damage this makes crossbows attractive in a different way than bows.
AN 11 dex to use a crossbow is ridiculous, I am about as dextrous as a club footed yak but I can shoot one quite well.

I strongly disagree wtih forktong, Bows are way cooler looking than crossbows, but aesthetics is a matter of personal taste.