Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General Discussion: Fixed-Length Cooldowns and Skills

At the moment in D:OS 2, Larian seems to be pursuing a revamp to the Action Points system. No longer will any attributes alter how many AP you get per turn. Instead, all characters will get 3-4 AP per turn (and possibly have the maximum capacity also fixed at 3-4 AP, although I'm not sure.) Generally speaking, all actions will use 1 AP.

For purposes of this discussion, I'll assume that system will be implemented. I have some ideas I'd like to discuss..


Abilities and Attributes shall not change the cooldown length.

• Instead, each skill will have a fixed cooldown length. I will allow for the possibility of certain Talents and certain Skills to alter the cooldown length, but generally speaking, the cooldown shall be a fixed length no matter what your level, "class", or stats.
• This means that skills shall have to be balanced around the fixed cooldown length, instead of trying to balance them around a cooldown length which could vary a great deal depending on your attributes.
• With cooldowns fixed,

To compensate for the fixed cooldown length, some skills will have a 0 turn cooldown.

• As long as you have AP, these skills can be used as many times as you want. Which in a 4-AP-max system is 4 times.
• These skills would generally be Novice-level skills and generally of low-power, but they would be things that you could use if your other skills are on a cooldown.
• Example: a Minor Heal spell which heals 10% of the target's HP once. It could be used to heal 4 party members each for 10% HP or one party member for 40% HP.
• Or another spell which just clears some status effects from a single target.
• There should be at least one zero-cooldown skill in each elemental school which can do some elemental damage at at least a moderate range (8-10 meters)
• The elemental damage ones are mainly because Physical-damage dealers already have a way to attack each turn even if all things are on cooldown. But I suppose with wands in the game, and if Staff of Magus's cooldown returns to 0 than there's less need for this.

I also had another idea, your maximum AP was like 12 and certain high-level skills would cost 12 AP to cast, forcing you to save up for a few turns. ...but I think that part of the change was to avoid letting characters stack up a ton of normal actions, so if they could use 12 normal actions a turn, that would defeat the point of switching to a max-4-AP system.

Thoughts?

All that make a sense.

If something works, lets rebuild it from scratch.

Oh, wait ... .

My argument is that variable-length cooldowns DOESN'T work. I mean, if I thought it was the best idea, then I wouldn't have even made this thread, now would I?

If you disagree, can you try to come up with better reasoning than "we've always done it that way"?

They seem to have made D:OS1 cooldowns more fine-tunable in the EE, where each skill can have a custom cooldown reduction. Not entirely sure how the numbers play out (data "CooldownReduction" "40" on BoulderDash, for example, whatever 40 means), but I believe I could eliminate cooldown reduction entirely. I think they already have gotten rid of or reduced high stat cooldown reduction for a lot of skills. Not entirely sure how effective high stat cooldown reduction is, but it doesn't seem very strong so far. 10 Int (I think) only gives me 2 round CD reduction on 10 CD abilities.

I kind of like cooldown reduction as a way to keep novice skills useful later on, especially ones that don't scale, but it does make balance a bit more complicated.

I don't think so. Capping the maximum cooldown reduction based on the power of the skill, like it is currently implemented, seems like a pretty good solution.
This way it becomes easier to get some basic knowledge in certain magic schools while also improving spells that don't care about damage (cure debuffs and the invisibility/mobility skills for scoundrels) as the player levels up.

Stabbey I was thinking about this once more.
I was one who hates spell cool-down reduction in initial release, due to high level spells spam.
Although make it a system to play with is a better idea then cut it out.

Current idea of initial and minimal cool-down set is good. I like it.
I have noticed that some DEX based skills are also reduced by DEX ! which is interesting way.

With emphasis for build and class combination, It makes sense.

Here is my idea how to Improve cool-down reduction system.

Skill(spell) is based on attribute.
Minimum cool-down is set for all skills(spells) same. (currently 4turns I would go to 3turns)
Cool-down reduction is linked to attribute AND to the skill level.

Attribute is in range 5-12 (possible reduction up to 4 turns)
Skill is in range 0-5 (possible reduction up to 4 turns)

The cooldown formula should be made a way that WEIGHT is the same for attribut AND skill in the given range so:

(Attribute + skill*3) = result_for_table_of_reduction

Result is, that Hydro mage skill 5 will have significantly higher cooldown for fire spells skill 1 compare to Pyro skill 5. Also it works for wands(rings with a spell) you can cast it, but skill zero times 3 results zero. He can cast it with great chance to get burn someone, thanks to high Int, but he is not skilled enough to cast it frequently.
Same apply for other skills.
Lets have an Marksman skill 5 who takes 1 scoundrel skills for Walk in Shadow. Its good play and usefull. But obviously, a Scoundrel 5 would be more efficient in Walk in shadow.

Conclusion:
The system of cool-down reduction linked to Attribute AND Skill emphasizes specialization but opens door for different builds thanks to a handbrake of cool-down requirement. So, even if a char gets loads of skills, he could use it once per combat which do not create overpower characters but interesting rather.

I solidified my thoughts on cooldown during the D:OS 2 kickstarter, before the EE came out. The EE has indeed greatly improved the issue of cooldowns.

I am not a fan of tying cooldowns to abilities and skills at all, though, because it makes it harder to balance. Under your system, a skill could have a cooldown reduction of between -2 and 7 - a spread of 9 turns! That's EXACTLY the kind of thing which creates balance headaches, and why I don't like it.

Correct. 9 turns diference is enough to split an occasional user, and focused master.

9 round cooldown is diferece of a scoundrell with a ring of lightning with a Aerotheurg arch mage.

Where do you see a headeache?
Would you rather allow same cast speed for all?
What is the skill stat for?

The skill stat, at least in D:OS EE, lets you learn more skills, and lets you use higher level skills without a penalty to AP-cost. We don't know what will change in D:OS 2, but I don't think cooldown reduction needs to or should be added.

I absolutely do not agree with a cooldown spread of 9-turns at all. Pretty much no skills even have a cooldown of 9-turns, even in vanilla. That's completely ridiculous and would just bring back the exact same skill spamming issue.


Here's why I don't like cooldown reductions:
If you can spam the same skills turn-after-turn-after-turn, it reduces the amount of strategy and tactics. You no longer have to worry "should I use Skill X now, knowing that it means I won't be able to use it again for a few turns?" It means that you no longer have to worry about running out of your best spells and having to figure out what to do with the limited resources you have left. It means scrolls become much less useful.

Well, you probably missed this sentence which is part of the system:


Frankly speaking
- every skill/spell has cooldown 3-10 rounds
- why 10? you dont need to be fully maxed to get minimal cooldown, you have choice how to get it

A 3-10 range of cooldown times does not make me like the idea any more than a 1-7 turn range of cooldown times. That skill has to be powerful enough to be worth whatever cooldown time it has.

In the EE, that is determined essentially by the power it gets from the associated primary attribute. The higher your INT the more damage it does and/or the higher chance it has to land a status.

You want to add in complicating factors of hefty penalties for not optimizing your build for skill X. That highly promotes min-maxing specialization and kills off any use for hybrid classes. I don't see where you get the the idea that punishing not being a pure specialist opens the doors to new builds.


What happened to this:

The current system in EE kind of messes over cross classes once again. Well except "Major Minor" cross classes.

Especially when some of the essential skills to even make them work get locked behind penalties (0 AP skills being a big one).

What is odd is that the system treats the primary attributes (str, dex, int) like they are the only things of importance. When really Pure Classes' major advantage is not only getting the max bonus but having the HP to make it work. "True" Shadowblades do not work because they will never get the HP to even be decent rogues (at least... not at level 10).

Note: I am making up terms but here are the definitions
-Major Minor Crossclass: Essentially you have one main skill that you pump your points into, then you have one that gets 1-2 skill points at most and you get JUST enough points to be able to cast them without penalty and then forget them (If any at all due to some skills not having a real penalty).
-True Class: Essentially a double major cross class. A True class focuses equally on its skills.
-Double Major Crossclass: A crossclass where you focus on your skills equally to an extent.

inital range 3-10 is for all. So you could have 5 for low level skill. Or not so dangerous skill.
Idea is, you can splash more. You dont need limit skills by 8 Attribute, becouse the skill cant be used often. e.g. If you splash, you get reliable skills with high cooldown. Now you use 8 attribute as a handbrake to limit skills from other branches. I would rather see cooldown as handbrake.


What happened to this:

Its still correct. Add skill level to the cooldown system is an extension of current status. Get noticed that some current skills receves reduced cooldown from high DEX