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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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Ive been playing around with a few builds in ACT 2, currently lvl 12 on my first playthrough so if anything somehow changes later id love to know.
Ive tried a rogue build and a 2h warrior build both with a few Points put into Aero and Poly for utility reasons. However looking at the stats i cant see how a rogue could ever Come close to the warrior.
Lets start with STR vs Finesse. STR allows u to use a wide variety of weapons while the Rogue is stuck with daggers. So realistically the warrior is much easier to gear and will have the better weapon in the majority of time. As an added bonus Polymorph just so happen to scale with STR!
Now lets take a look at how to build a high dmging melee guy. Rogue vs Warrior. Rogue have crit backstabs. This is an advantage only in the first ACT, lvl 12 i managed to get my warriors Critchance to 76% without much effort. Warrior need only or rather should only pump their points into "Two handed", this is where the rogue gets shafted hard. 10 points spent for the warrior equals 20 points spent for the rogue. Two handed gives u BOTH 5%dmg and 5%crit dmg per point, while the rogue have to put points into both dual weilding and scoundrel to achieve the same results. The xtra dodge is irrelevant right now.
Dual weilding also add a -50% dmg penalty to ur off hand weapon.
Am i missing something important or is there just no way to keep up with two handed STR guys in this game? Might try ranger out to but i can see them getting the same problem as rogue to a slightly lesser degree since they have a higher dmging weapon wich also can take advantage of height bonuses.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
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Huntsman have hight advantage for even more damage and probably the strongest Source skill in Game as I heard. Otherwise I guess you are not wrong, even more because warrior can easily round up whole groups while scoundrel is single-target-attacker.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2017
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About Polymorph scaling with STR - is this 100% accurate?
I didn't play the game a lot but I noticed that a lot of skills scale with the greatest attribute each character has.
I was checking the same skill book description with 3 different characters and for each of them the scaling attribute was different (INT, Finesse, STR).
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member
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member
Joined: Nov 2015
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your 76% crit chance is coming from somewhere. Those points are wasted on the rogue, and should be going into other things. It takes a LOT of gear points to get your crit chance that high. there are a few rules of thumb to maximize your rogue damage. 1. Generally speaking warfare is the go to best place to put points for both warrior and rogue. For rogue, after warfare, then you go scoundrel. (obviously you need enough scoundrel for your abilities). 2. Daggers are super common drops, particularly with lucky charm. That said, I find I am buying my weapons most levels. 3. Invisibility effects are your best friend on the rogue. You can really get those numbers up. My rogues damage are more consistent than my 2h warrior, and they do more overall damage. Now... if you want to compare archers to rogues / warriors, that's another story 
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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your 76% crit chance is coming from somewhere. Those points are wasted on the rogue, and should be going into other things. It takes a LOT of gear points to get your crit chance that high. there are a few rules of thumb to maximize your rogue damage. 1. Generally speaking warfare is the go to best place to put points for both warrior and rogue. For rogue, after warfare, then you go scoundrel. (obviously you need enough scoundrel for your abilities). 2. Daggers are super common drops, particularly with lucky charm. That said, I find I am buying my weapons most levels. 3. Invisibility effects are your best friend on the rogue. You can really get those numbers up. My rogues damage are more consistent than my 2h warrior, and they do more overall damage. Now... if you want to compare archers to rogues / warriors, that's another story At work atm so cannot check exactly but i have a two handed axe with 20% Critchance, amulet with 2 Rune slots so thats another 18%, hothead 10%, rest is from belt, gloves and wits. 1. Why wouldnt i skip warfare and put points in DW and get the same dmg bonus as warfare with xtra dodge as a bonus? Scoundrel bonus + warfare bonus is the same as the two hander bonus put together wich was my point. And crits is the ultimate dmg build in this game where crit bonus is the only thing that multiplies the final damage. My mage crit build i currently run on my other character has 60% Critchance and her firelance has critted upwards to 700dmg on lvl 12. With height bonus ofc. 2. In my experience daggers often drop with useless stats such as Critchance and +one handed wich are useless on rogues. A good dagger is more rare then anything in my campaign. 3. Invisibility and uncanny avoidance are my best friends on any build i try I just think they need to replace that dodge stat on dual weilding and make it the same as two handed. Dodge could be on 1 handed.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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Also should add that i play lonewolf and Peace of Mind is included in my Critchance
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2017
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Scoundrel isn't purely about damage, if you want a dagger using physical damage dealer, you'll want warfare anyway. Physical hitters only need points in scoundrel / hunter for skill requirements, not actual damage.
gambling on some rng cc affect is not a deep strategic decision. It's just a sign of gambling addiction.
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member
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member
Joined: Nov 2015
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I agree dodge is useless on scoundrel. Your math is off on what is multiplicative. A simplified version would go like this.
(primary stat + one handed / 2 handed / dual wield damage bonus) * (elemental damage or warfare for physical) * ((crit damage bonus + base 50% crit damage) * crit chance) + high ground damage bonus)
*note crit damage bonus & base crit damage bonus only apply if you crit.
Lets assume you have the following stats with your 2h melee character. who has 100% crit chance.
Strength:40
Two Handed:2
Warfare 12
A weapon that does 74-81 damage, with 15-17 fire damage.
Your total physical damage without crit would be 368-402.
Putting a point in 2 handed increases that to 373-409.
Putting a point in warfare incrases that to 379-415.
Now, 2 handed also increases crit damage, so let's look at that.
crit would be 588-643
crit with 1 more point in 2 hander would be 616-674
crit with 1 more point in warfare instead would be 606-663.
567-621 : with the point in 2 hander
561-614 : with the point in warfare.
Now keep in mind, this is with 12 points already in warfare, to give advantage to your argument. As you bring the two skills closer together the 2 hander gets dusted by warfare, even with 100% crit.
Now you are talking about scoundrel though. So let's look into that.
If we give the scoundrel an extra 3 points to spend because he doesn't have gear dedicated to crit damage (a very conservative number), and a couple extra finesse or dual wield for using an offhand:
If we give the rogue the following:
39 finesse, 1 dual wield, 4 scoundrel, 14 warfare,
primary weapon a dagger with 48 - 52
secondary weapon a dagger with 48-52 (gets cut in half though for offhand)
We wind up with a damage total of 626-677.
To sumarize, your 2 hander with 100% crit chance will do 616-674.
My rogue who actually gets 100% crit chance will do 626-677,
actually beating your damage with 1 level lower weapons.
I think where you are struggling, is knowing what is multiplicative and what is not. Your 2 handed war could be doing more damage by focusing on things other than crit. Why? because the multiplication goes like this.
Base stat + damage from weapon skill. (This will always be a huge number, increasing it by 1 point will not have massive impact.
X
warfare
X
Crit damage. Now, your weapon has a default 50% crit damage. So even if you have 80% crit, you will still get more return by putting a point in warfare vs increasing your crit by 5% and your primary stat by 1. Here is a simple example.
lets assume 40 str, and 10 points in either 2 hander or warfare with your 80% crit rate.
((2 from Str + .5 from Two hander)+ 1) * 1(no warfare) * (((.50 crit + .50 crit from 2 hander)*80%) +1)
(3.5) * 1 * 1.8) = 6.3 X average damage multiplier.
On the other hand,
((2 from Str + 0 two hander)+1) * 1.5 (from 10 warfare) * (.5 base crit *80%) +1
3 * 1.5 * 1.4 = 6.3 average damage multiplier.
It works out exactly the same, just more consistent.
Ideally, you want warfare to have about 9 points more than 2 hander for optimal damage.
Last edited by emmagine; 05/10/17 09:12 PM.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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I agree dodge is useless on scoundrel. Your math is off on what is multiplicative. A simplified version would go like this.
(primary stat + one handed / 2 handed / dual wield damage bonus) * (elemental damage or warfare for physical) * ((crit damage bonus + base 50% crit damage) * crit chance) + high ground damage bonus)
*note crit damage bonus & base crit damage bonus only apply if you crit.
Lets assume you have the following stats with your 2h melee character. who has 100% crit chance.
Strength:40
Two Handed:2
Warfare 12
A weapon that does 74-81 damage, with 15-17 fire damage.
Your total physical damage without crit would be 368-402.
Putting a point in 2 handed increases that to 373-409.
Putting a point in warfare incrases that to 379-415.
Now, 2 handed also increases crit damage, so let's look at that.
crit would be 588-643
crit with 1 more point in 2 hander would be 616-674
crit with 1 more point in warfare instead would be 606-663.
567-621 : with the point in 2 hander
561-614 : with the point in warfare.
Now keep in mind, this is with 12 points already in warfare, to give advantage to your argument. As you bring the two skills closer together the 2 hander gets dusted by warfare, even with 100% crit.
Now you are talking about scoundrel though. So let's look into that.
If we give the scoundrel an extra 3 points to spend because he doesn't have gear dedicated to crit damage (a very conservative number), and a couple extra finesse or dual wield for using an offhand:
If we give the rogue the following:
39 finesse, 1 dual wield, 4 scoundrel, 14 warfare,
primary weapon a dagger with 48 - 52
secondary weapon a dagger with 48-52 (gets cut in half though for offhand)
We wind up with a damage total of 626-677.
To sumarize, your 2 hander with 100% crit chance will do 616-674.
My rogue who actually gets 100% crit chance will do 626-677,
actually beating your damage with 1 level lower weapons.
I think where you are struggling, is knowing what is multiplicative and what is not. Your 2 handed war could be doing more damage by focusing on things other than crit. Why? because the multiplication goes like this.
Base stat + damage from weapon skill. (This will always be a huge number, increasing it by 1 point will not have massive impact.
X
warfare
X
Crit damage. Now, your weapon has a default 50% crit damage. So even if you have 80% crit, you will still get more return by putting a point in warfare vs increasing your crit by 5% and your primary stat by 1. Here is a simple example.
lets assume 40 str, and 10 points in either 2 hander or warfare with your 80% crit rate.
((2 from Str + .5 from Two hander)+ 1) * 1(no warfare) * (((.50 crit + .50 crit from 2 hander)*80%) +1)
(3.5) * 1 * 1.8) = 6.3 X average damage multiplier.
On the other hand,
((2 from Str + 0 two hander)+1) * 1.5 (from 10 warfare) * (.5 base crit *80%) +1
3 * 1.5 * 1.4 = 6.3 average damage multiplier.
It works out exactly the same, just more consistent.
Ideally, you want warfare to have about 9 points more than 2 hander for optimal damage. Wow great work and thank u very much for taking the time i understand now and this makes me very glad! Rogue/Assassin is always mu favourite class in games. Again thank u for ur math well done!
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member
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member
Joined: Nov 2015
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No problem! It is a slightly different rule of thumb for scoundrel.
Keep warfare = scoundrel + 10. so if you put 3 points in scoundrel, you should already have 13 points in warfare.
Never put points in dual wield until you have capped both warfare and scoundrel. Even then, you are probably better to put points in polymorph unless you want the dodge.
Last edited by emmagine; 05/10/17 10:02 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
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Dud what.
Rogue/Shadowblade is one of the strongest.
I did Solo Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade at Tactican difficulty, its so overpowered if right used, as Shadowblade and Fane you can get up to 4 free tours without enemies attacking you and backstabing criticals are huge, you're doing something wrong.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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Dud what.
Rogue/Shadowblade is one of the strongest.
I did Solo Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade at Tactican difficulty, its so overpowered if right used, as Shadowblade and Fane you can get up to 4 free tours without enemies attacking you and backstabing criticals are huge, you're doing something wrong. I wasnt doing anything wrong i was simply just wrong about the multipliers. Free turns how? The AI can be cheesed with play dead? In case rogue has anything exclusive that lets them do that, any other class could do that too.
Last edited by Fhursten; 06/10/17 05:27 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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Scoundrel does low damage in comparison with two handed weapons. 1) You must input something in wits cause you are bound to dagger, cause most of scoundrel skills require dagger - so you'll lack in strength (less damage) 2) Compare dagger and two hander. Here is my late game stats (I'm using two hander) Crit mult 260% ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/y7o3oqE.png)
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
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Dud what.
Rogue/Shadowblade is one of the strongest.
I did Solo Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade at Tactican difficulty, its so overpowered if right used, as Shadowblade and Fane you can get up to 4 free tours without enemies attacking you and backstabing criticals are huge, you're doing something wrong. I wasnt doing anything wrong i was simply just wrong about the multipliers. Free turns how? The AI can be cheesed with play dead? In case rogue has anything exclusive that lets them do that, any other class could do that too. If you're solo (must be solo) Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade/rogue (with 1 poly) You just do: Start fight, do combo> go invisibility Since you're alone and enemies dont see you they just pass their tours Your second tour you attack, go for Time Warp (source needed but its easy to get) Time Warp gives you another tour: Third tour attack, go playing dead (since you're alone combat completely resets and you can attack again) Fourth tour do your stuff, use some skill to retreat/get to safe spot Voila, enemies are able to attack you after 4 full rounds of backstabbing them to death.
Last edited by Sebille; 06/10/17 07:07 AM.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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Dud what.
Rogue/Shadowblade is one of the strongest.
I did Solo Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade at Tactican difficulty, its so overpowered if right used, as Shadowblade and Fane you can get up to 4 free tours without enemies attacking you and backstabing criticals are huge, you're doing something wrong. I wasnt doing anything wrong i was simply just wrong about the multipliers. Free turns how? The AI can be cheesed with play dead? In case rogue has anything exclusive that lets them do that, any other class could do that too. If you're solo (must be solo) Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade/rogue (with 1 poly) You just do: Start fight, do combo> go invisibility Since you're alone and enemies dont see you they just pass their tours Your second tour you attack, go for Time Warp (source needed but its easy to get) Time Warp gives you another tour: Third tour attack, go playing dead (since you're alone combat completely resets and you can attack again) Fourth tour do your stuff, use some skill to retreat/get to safe spot Voila, enemies are able to attack you after 4 full rounds of backstabbing them to death. Yeah abusing stupid AI can be done in most turn based games. But i find invisibility to be very unreliable, AI tend to use AE spells on and around my location. Even rain breaks invis. Only ever tried Sebille so far so have never tried play dead, what is the cooldown on it? Havent seen Time Warp yet in my campaign what school is it?
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2017
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Scoundrel does low damage in comparison with two handed weapons. 1) You must input something in wits cause you are bound to dagger, cause most of scoundrel skills require dagger - so you'll lack in strength (less damage) 2) Compare dagger and two hander. Here is my late game stats (I'm using two hander) Crit mult 260% Yikes how high lvl can u get in this game? Im at 13 and the dmg on crits land around 600-700ish. Lol What do u mean by "u must input something in wits"?
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2014
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@Fhursten I'm 21, pretty sure could get 22-23 if maxing out exp Misspell - under wits I meant finesse
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2017
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Dud what.
Rogue/Shadowblade is one of the strongest.
I did Solo Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade at Tactican difficulty, its so overpowered if right used, as Shadowblade and Fane you can get up to 4 free tours without enemies attacking you and backstabing criticals are huge, you're doing something wrong. I wasnt doing anything wrong i was simply just wrong about the multipliers. Free turns how? The AI can be cheesed with play dead? In case rogue has anything exclusive that lets them do that, any other class could do that too. If you're solo (must be solo) Lone Wolf Fane Shadowblade/rogue (with 1 poly) You just do: Start fight, do combo> go invisibility Since you're alone and enemies dont see you they just pass their tours Your second tour you attack, go for Time Warp (source needed but its easy to get) Time Warp gives you another tour: Third tour attack, go playing dead (since you're alone combat completely resets and you can attack again) Fourth tour do your stuff, use some skill to retreat/get to safe spot Voila, enemies are able to attack you after 4 full rounds of backstabbing them to death. Yeah abusing stupid AI can be done in most turn based games. But i find invisibility to be very unreliable, AI tend to use AE spells on and around my location. Even rain breaks invis. Only ever tried Sebille so far so have never tried play dead, what is the cooldown on it? Havent seen Time Warp yet in my campaign what school is it? it's not a school. it's fane's unique source skill. and play dead is something like 4 or 6 turns but here is a thing: any character can do it. even a mage. and a 2hander with 100% crit will do it even better, cuz he'll deal aoe damage to everyone instead of single-target backstabs
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2017
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Scoundrel does low damage in comparison with two handed weapons. 1) You must input something in wits cause you are bound to dagger, cause most of scoundrel skills require dagger - so you'll lack in strength (less damage) 2) Compare dagger and two hander. Here is my late game stats (I'm using two hander) Crit mult 260% Yikes how high lvl can u get in this game? Im at 13 and the dmg on crits land around 600-700ish. Lol What do u mean by "u must input something in wits"? That shown in the picture seems to me as Lone Wolf stats, not normal stats. That's my warrior at lvl 20, with mostly lvl 16 to lvl 19 gear: [img] http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1159729896[/img] And that's my rogue: [img] http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1159729946[/img] You cannot compare with the warrior 1:1 because it depends on random luck about the item findings. I reskilled some times (from Cleric and Warrior) and I have 12 points in Strength, Intelligence and Constitution which you could redeploy into Finesse (I have no access to the mirror unfortunately). But even then he might not get the same damage. Not that bad, you get other benefits from a rogue. Edit: why do the pictures not show up?
Last edited by geala; 06/10/17 12:41 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Nov 2015
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Scoundrel does low damage in comparison with two handed weapons. 1) You must input something in wits cause you are bound to dagger, cause most of scoundrel skills require dagger - so you'll lack in strength (less damage) 2) Compare dagger and two hander. Here is my late game stats (I'm using two hander) Crit mult 260% Yikes how high lvl can u get in this game? Im at 13 and the dmg on crits land around 600-700ish. Lol What do u mean by "u must input something in wits"? That shown in the picture seems to me as Lone Wolf stats, not normal stats. That's my warrior at lvl 20, with mostly lvl 16 to lvl 19 gear: [img] http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1159729896[/img] And that's my rogue: [img] http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1159729946[/img] You cannot compare with the warrior 1:1 because it depends on random luck about the item findings. I reskilled some times (from Cleric and Warrior) and I have 12 points in Strength, Intelligence and Constitution which you could redeploy into Finesse (I have no access to the mirror unfortunately). But even then he might not get the same damage. Not that bad, you get other benefits from a rogue. Edit: why do the pictures not show up? Because the URL format for the image is not compatible with this forum.
Last edited by emmagine; 06/10/17 12:54 PM.
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