Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Suggestions and Feedback Combat Sneak & Guerrilla: Find the Middle Ground!

Hey guys,

Long time player, first time poster. I am HUGE fan of Divinity and its lore. I am also a big time alt-oholic and spend vast amounts of time immersing in dialogue and connecting the dots in the giant web of cause-and-effect relationships between characters and events in Rivellon.

There are a lot of things I've seen people provide feedback on, some more tactful than others, but regardless of how valid they may or may not seem to me personally, I can still recognize that the feedback ultimately stems from a player's genuine interest in and love for the game. Personally, there are very few things in D:OS2 that turn me off. But today, I come here to finally express my concerns regarding the one thing I find utterly game-breaking for me (in this particular context): Combat Sneaking and, particularly, how it synergizes with Guerrilla. Before I go into why it needs to be reworked, let me say that I realize I can invest a little into Polymorph for Chameleon Cloak - This is all well and good, but it is merely a workaround for a problem, not an actual solution.

Those of us who played D:OS know how the Enhanced Edition came with a severe nerf to combat sneaking mechanics. For anyone who hasn't, it is apparent with a simple Google search of "D:OS sneaking." The plain and simple truth is that combat sneaking is not only severely underpowered relative to virtually every other potential combo in both games, but is essentially so underwhelming that it is nonviable.

As someone who assumes the rogue archetype in virtually every RPG I've ever had the luxury of playing, this is a HUGE turnoff. I've been through Fort Joy over a dozen times (easily) and seen first-hand how rogues compare to other classes. Sneaking is supposed to be the unique flavor of the archetype and provide for meaningful combat synergies and combos to suit the role, you know... to be thematically appropriate and immersive.

Let's take a short look at the numbers. Sneaking in combat used to cost 1 AP, and as long the player was able to successfully meet the sneak check and there was no direct line-of-sight to the rogue, could be accomplished successfully, even when standing directly next to or behind an enemy, or with other enemies nearby. As far as immersion goes, this is a bit counter-intuitive if we assume "sneaking" means effectively going invisible right before their very eyes (more on this later). I can admit that a 1 AP cost for such a powerful combo potential is overpowered.

However, 4 AP is way over the top. This is exactly how many AP a player character will start their turn with. This allows for no further action to be taken on this turn - no attacks, no movement, no skills - we can merely crouch and immediately end our turn, hoping that nobody happens to look in our general direction until our next turn. The only viable way to both sneak and use *any* sort of attacks or skills is to be a Lone Wolf (which I have tried) or to save AP for future turns, and even then it falls way behind the other archetypes in terms of AP efficiency and effectiveness in how that AP is spent. The end result is a meaningless Civil Ability and near-useless Talent, which are quite rare and valuable, I might add. Literally every other talent is more useful than Guerrilla; Save for being able to open an encounter with a sneak attack, it has no other meaningful purpose.

There has to be a middle ground here. As it stands, the rogue archetype is only viable when combined with other Combat Abilities. Don't get me wrong, I love me some diversification. But think for a moment about how limited the number of points to invest in Combat Abilities really are, and how much more meaningful the investment of those points is when it actually synergizes with our Civil Abilities and Talents.

I'd like to conclude with one different perspective on how combat sneaking could (and probably should) work in a game such as this. In many games, take Dungeons & Dragons for example, a "sneak attack" is not so literally defined. A sneak attack can, for all intents and purposes, really be about taking advantage of a weakness or openings in an opponent's guard, similar to how Flanking or Opportunity Attacks function. It doesn't have to mean that we are literally going invisible right before their eyes - so what if the visual effect is a guy (or gal) hiding in a bush or barrel - mechanically, that character is using their AP to take advantage of an opening in an opponent's guard. In this case, that simply means being behind them. Sure, we do have Backstabbing with daggers, but any class can use that now... a dual-wielding battlemage can simply use daggers instead of wands or strength-based weapons - so what does a rogue really bring to the table?

I believe that a 2 AP cost for sneaking in combat is appropriate. At this cost, a standard player character (non Lone Wolf) will still be forced to save AP across rounds to pack major punch for which sneak attack combos have potential, but it still allows for freedom of choice and flexibility. It stands to reason that a character destined for Divinity would be able to do more than perform a single squat in a round of combat. The remaining 2 AP (assuming again a standard character, without buffs) can be used for buffs, movement, or a single attack, or perhaps even saved for the next round to be used in a potentially larger and more deadly combo.

That's all I've got folks. Sorry for the long post, I appreciate you taking the time to read it. Larian - please revisit combat sneaking and the Guerrilla talent. I've beaten the game and I've seen what it throws at us - take a moment to consider how the archetypes stand up to each other and how underpowered the rogue is compared to other archetypes.

I really do agree with you, sneak is currently in such an underpowered position it's not a viable thing to use, it is effectively wasting your AP. I am all for changing it to 2 AP, and if that's too powerful then I'd be fine with that, I'd rather have it be too powerful than a token inclusion.
I feel your pain too, rogue is my archetype of choice and them being simply more dots\burst focused warriors in this game isn't quite my bag. But they might be if I could do some in-combat backstabs ala the sneak attack of dnd5e.

On a side note what's the deal with dual wielding rogues being all the vogue this decade? Back in MY DAY rogues used ONE short sword and we LIKED IT THAT WAY. Now we got all these new-fangled dual wielding hipsters and I am not okay with that.

But they were awesome in Dragon Age II. All games should have three-wave attacks with goons abseiling from sky-hooks. Press the awesome button! Press eeet!

ahem.

That's a great point, actually. I would really like to be able to single-hand as well. I started a character and sat on the creation screen for a long time contemplating whether or not I would be able to make that work, but it boiled down to not having any meaningful synergy between Combat Abilities and Talents again, and I ended up doing a different totally different archetype. The only thing that really caters to single-handed characters is the Ambidextrous talent, but I didn't think that was strong enough to offset the damage loss of using only one weapon. I really enjoy how Parry Master compliments the dual wield playstyle, but that in and of itself doesn't make a rogue, so I agree with you there. I'd love to see some variation of single-handed builds with a more... "profound" effect in a combat setting.

I remember that first encounter against the Death Knights in those mines in D:OS - oh boy was I glad I had a rogue then! I could be missing something of course, but I haven't seen anything like that in D:OS2. As much as I enjoy progression by brute force, a change in dynamic with a more "traditional" rogue archetype would make for an interesting and unique playthrough experience.

Edit: Not sure why my quote didn't work. I think it's because I'm on forum probation since I just signed up.

Yeah, single handed isn't much of a build. It'll do you in Classic if you stock up on scrolls, but beyond that it has no advantages until grenades get buffed. Dual wield is sadly the way to go. Single handed having some extra bonus would be neato, maybe 1% piercing damage bonus, hmm.

And yeah, before your first 10 posts unless you ask for a probation lift you can't use BB code. But we have a friendly lurking mod which is already on top of it so it coo'.

As an assassin main, I find the so-called "assassin build" in D:OS2 hugely unsatisfying. A letdown, simply put.

I mean, when your rogue skill tree gives you no means of cloaking yourself? You'd have to put 1 point in Poly to get Chameleon Cloak. That already makes no sense. And this ability has a cooldown of 6 turns. My endgame fight lasts only 5-6 turns if I drag it out intentionally, on Tactician. Most other fights last 5 turns, tops. If you have Skin Graft, you get to use it twice, that's it. Not to mention, the fact that attacking from stealth gives you no bonus damage, the purpose of stealth is just so that you don't get focused on.

What about Sneaking? You mean the thing that costs you FOUR APs in-combat? What's the point of doing it? This gives rise to your next question: What's the point of Guerilla? It works in the case where you know there is combat ahead, so you let your other members enter combat, while you stay outside combat and enter sneak mode. Then your first hit would get some extra damage, as you enter combat at the same time. Also, Sneaking is something anyone can do; it's not something that defines you as a rogue.

As it is, by endgame, my dual-wielding bruiser does more damage than my dedicated assassin with a 2-point basic attack - 2 normal attacks vs. 2 backstabs.

So, I'd say, we need the ability to easily enter stealth. Then, stealthed attacks must give us bonus damage. But that can't be all. Now you're suggesting a 2-point cost for entering stealth, right? Well, another problem with "stealth" in D:OS2 is that, it can be easily broken. Too easily. In most cases, enemies know where you are after you enter stealth. All they need to do is to walk 2 steps to let their vision cone hit you and voila, there you are. You are also revealed whenever you take damage. So a random AOE spell will undo your stealth. Moving across damaging surface will undo your stealth. This means, even if entering stealth costs, say, 2 point, you would still need to spend points to move away from the fight to make sure that your stealth is not broken. And THEN, moving around in stealth, without getting hit by surfaces...

To solidly implement the "stealth" mechanics is not easy, though. Baldur's Gate 2 did this really well, especially with the help of certain balance mods. You'd need a whole system of anti-stealth to accompany it in order to prevent it from being op/broken. Playing an Assassin in BG2 is a hugely satisfying experience, if you care about gameplay.

So... in order to give my post a bit more value, I'm thinking, maybe we get a new ability that lets you enter stealth, which *cannot* be broken by vision. 1-AP cost. 1-turn cooldown. Lasts indefinitely or until canceled. No movement speed penalty. How likely you are revealed by taking damage depends on your Scoundrel rank. All stealthed attacks do bonus damage, regardless of angles. Then, we'd probably need some countermeasures... Like certain enemies can see through stealth... and so on. Quite a bit of work would need to go into the AI. Well I did say that it's not a simple task to implement this whole mechanics satisfyingly right?

I've always found Assassin broken in Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition. But now I'd prefer that it's broken like that in the first place, THEN we start to nerf it from there. Rather than this...

I just created an account to respond to this.
Because Sneaking is bugged, and guerrilla + sneaking could actually be worth using if sneaking was working correctly.

Sneaking doesn t work in combat at the moment. You can sneak behind someone and teleport to an opposite direction out of line of sight and move even further while sneaking, they will still know where you are and run to you.

Even with the current sneaking cost, it would still be ok if you were playing glass cannon rogue. But you simply cant use it in combat it has no effect whatsoever.

The only use for sneak to work in combat is when you are invisible. At the end of the invisibility if you are in sneak they wont know where you are. That is the only way it actually works.
This can be used to cheese mobs, kill a mob use invi and sneak somewhere, wait for CD and repeat. But this is the worst gameplay ever and has no use in a multi character setup ( since you have to skip a lot of turn meaning your whole party will be dead before you have any impact ).

Sneaking should make you invisible like invisibility when you are out of vision cone. That s how it should work against normal enemies.

So please fix Sneaking, so we can actually test it with glass canon in combat to make it for the high AP cost ( glass canon give you a free sneaking every 2 turn kind of ).
The gameplay would probably be really challenging, and you would have to use combat turn/ delay and initiative to optimize your damage if you have to remain in invi or sneak at the end of your turn ( since a glass cannon doesn t last long otherwise ).
Invi from polymorph would still have its use in such gameplay, because it cost only 1 AP and would give you more AP to do damage during a turn.

Here is an example of how we should be able to play glass canon rogue:
Start in sneak mode.
TURN 1
Make one of you other party member delay his first turn and wait for him to play last before you engage with a sneak attack ( because when you use sneak attack out of combat you will be last to play so you need to use it at the latest moment possible during the first turn ).
After your sneak attack play your turn normally using all your 6 AP for damage + 2 AP adrenaline if you want ( 8 AP worth of damage, aka 2 turn for a normal character ).
TURN 2
Make sure you have enough initiative ( gear + stat ) so you can play first this turn.
You have 4 AP since you used adrenaline and you are glass cannon so you can go in a good position with pawn and use sneak. ( 0 AP worth of damage )
TURN 3
Delay you turn so you can play last.
Use all of your 6 AP to do damage.
TURN 4
You should have enough initiative so you can play first this turn.
Use 2 AP for damage and 4 to sneak away.
...
etc.

So the gameplay basically make you use AP for damage every 2 turn but since you use glass canon, you will do the same amount of damage than any other character ( 8 AP of damage every 2 turn ). So 4 AP cost sneak seems balance to me. And guerrilla would actually be useful to make the 4 AP sneak more worth it.
This should be possible to do ( but you cant since sneaking is bugged obviously ), and would actually make you play a stealth character without being OP. And it would even be fun and challenging since you probably wont be able to pull the sneak at the end of every turn all the time ( you may have to use teleport or adrenaline to get enough AP to do it, or even the invisibility spell... or just get cc forever and die ).

I really hope you will fix the sneak bug so we can actually play rogue like that, like it should be played :p

It's good to see there are others who find combat sneaking and guerrilla to be lackluster. I suspected that it was disappointing for others too (obviously I can't be the only person who enjoys playing a rogue!) but aside from a random reddit post here or there asking if it was worthwhile, I didn't see anything that really outlined the details of why this system allows for the rogue archetype to pale in comparison to other builds. So, I'm glad I made this post, as it clearly has given a few people a chance to share their thoughts on how to improve the system, or at least point out the more disappointing drawbacks.

I guess this serves mostly as a bump post, since I can easily agree with everything that's been stated here. A few points I can pick out of the above posts, just to add my two cents:
- Glass Cannon is a really neat talent, definitely serves a purpose and makes for interesting (and dangerous) builds. A rogue should, however, be able to fulfill his or her role respectably without being required to use Glass Cannon. As cool as it is, using it should be adding more powder to the keg of an already powerful, albeit traditionally squishy, character.
- Rogues have always been "overpowered" from a damage perspective in RPGs I've played, but typically exceedingly squishy. The potential for near-instant death by choosing to engage in a particularly dangerous situation is part of what makes the role interesting to play (risk/reward trade-off). A player with a strong knowledge of game mechanics and who has devoted a respectable amount of time to their build may be able to counter this more often than not, but it's still dangerous and squishy by default usually. I'm OK with a rogue's damage being a bit overpowered. It's not like other archetypes in D:OS2 are falling behind, they are in fact arguably more powerful in many cases than a rogue anyway, as illustrated by a few of the former posts (and I can attest to this, I have 2H warrior that totally wipes the floor with everything with ease).

I found this segment to particularly insightful:


I really think you're on to something with this idea, and I hope that Larian will see this and run with it. Even if it's not how you've stated it to the letter, the sneaking system overall is in need of makeover. Understandably, changes to that system are going to have a ripple effect on other aspects of the game and will need to be balanced. But your suggestions of having NPCs with innate abilities to detect stealth, or perhaps adding it on to something like Peace of Mind, would really add an interesting and fair counter to something with so much damage potential. I want to avoid spoiling anything if possible just in case someone happens upon this, but I think it's safe to suggest that since there are characters in Rivellon capable of detecting the source within others, that seeing through sneak isn't really a far-fetched concept. It's actually quite thematic and appropriate in a lot scenarios.

Thanks for the support everyone! I hope that the developers stumble upon this and make some changes as a result. I love this game, am going to continue playing it both solo and multi-player campaigns with my friends, and one of my buddies is a DM for dnd5e and has decided to build a campaign for us here in D:OS2 as well. I'm really looking forward to that, although I was planning to play a rogue in that campaign and may forego that decision now.