Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I, too, have always wanted Astarion to realize that I love him. Despite someone else's headcanon. Even without those kisses (which is mocking the player directly) there's enough someone else's headcanon as it is. If you look at Tav from Astarion's eyes, without your own made up lines and fantasies, there's not much good there. You try to pick the best of what you're given, and every now and then some of Tav's sour face flashes by, such as in the Ascended epilogue. It already cut the player off from the character somewhat, as if I wasn't roleplaying, but had taken control (with a larva, I guess) of some poor Tav, using her to communicate with Astarion, and her true desires and sour face would periodically come out, as if she wanted to say, "Well, when is this going to end... Get this player away from me! Why didn't someone else create me?" When the modder gave me my face, it was magical! Why isn't that real, genuine, joyful smile anywhere in the original game? I want to look at Astarion like this, if he likes to make a gesture with his dainty finger, like, " on your knees, darling", then I'll do it that way. There's even a slight craziness in that smile in the kneeling kiss (maybe it seems that way because of the scene itself, and I like it, it fits my chaotic Tav). The only thing missing is the possibility of preventing him from pushing me away at the end, catching his hand (gently, of course, without any confrontation), kissing his hand and pulling him to me by his arm. I would certainly like to see not such a passive Tav who doesn't even touch Astarion, but an active, passionate Tav who responds passionately and does something herself. But - most importantly, finally Tav is not afraid of Astarion! Larian, please, none of us are afraid of Astarion, this nonsense should not be in our kisses! Why isn't anyone trying to get fans of other characters to be afraid of their favorites? Recently came across a picture of Halsin in an article in a gaming magazine, it's really scary...


If come out of the tent at night and suddenly see such a thing, it is possible to do all your business right away, cannot get to the bushes, forget that you are a warrior and what level you are. But Halsin fans don't have fearful faces, neither do Gale fans, Will fans, no one is afraid of Minthara, Shadowheart (even if she becomes a Dark Justiciar) and Karlach. Only for some reason they've decided for us that we should be afraid of Astarion, the adorable Astarion that I can't take my eyes off of.

Of course, mods don't solve the situation, many people play without mods, and there are moments in the kiss animations themselves that trigger people. In the same kneeling kiss, Astarion takes Tav by the neck, and for some people this is unacceptable, that player can't imagine themselves smiling happily while doing it. Knees are the most difficult topic, many want it, many don't, or don't want it so often and in public. Perhaps it's still worth making this a separate line, or making an option for the player to choose whether or not they want to see it in their game.

Question - does anyone like the shoving off after Tav's attempt to kiss Astarion (in the bite kiss)? I just haven't seen anyone excited about it yet, so maybe it should be removed altogether and no one will be upset about it? There's the Karlach kiss - already filmed scene, you just need to change Karlach's facial expressions to Tav's facial expressions that the modder gave us - that's a good version of the kiss with a bite. Origin characters are played by a small number of players, mostly everyone plays Tav/DU, if there is a need to give Karlach originality, just leave her her sour face, and give us our facial expressions, and it will be original. I also think the shoving goes against Astarion's possessive nature, in the scene where he pushes Tav down it was completely different, he pushed Tav down and ended up on top, he didn't shove Tav away from him.

Face-grabbing kiss - the facial expressions the modder did are great. Perhaps Larian should just follow suit, I don't see any other problems with this kiss, it's good.


Consent and trust. Astarion doesn't want to hurt Tav, stop making him do it by program code.


Totally supportive.

Astarion origin not ascended (from the beginning to 4.24):


In Origine, we don't hear the bullying from the companions, but we can see how Astarion feels at that moment, and how he sits afterward, burned, shrinking into a lump, somewhere behind the crates on the docks. And the creature that the game considers our character is toasting their "victory" at that moment. I just want to be allowed to play myself, not that creature. I'm not interested in other people's headcanons, and I stay out of other people's games. The player has the right to choose one playthrough option, as long as it is their option. The player bought the game, and they are entitled to it.

That video was more upsetting than watching the Owlbear cub cry over its dead mom. If this is what being a "hero" gets you, I'd rather be a villain.

Yes I! And I would be upset, if it would be removed. I love Astarion shoving Tav away at the end of the bite kiss as much as I like the throat grab in the kneeling kiss.

But as said: Tav needs to get rid of the sad and apathetic facial expressions and the doll faces here and should show a consensual face before, during and after the kiss, especially after the slap/shoving, as Tav is and should be into it (when Tav has chosen "let it hurt") and would never be pissed off by a playful and spicy D/s shove by his partner. Aroused, ashamed or shy maybe, but would never looked pissed off - -

So yes, I like Astarion's animation, his spicy shoves and grabbing.

It's a fair question. It's one of the few parts of the kisses I think could be interpreted as just outright mean no matter how you slice it. I think if my Tav was smirking, not outright grinning, and not looking wounded like she does now, just a playful little smirk (thinking same exact face as when she reacts to "of course I will, and you'll drink mine"), that would recontextualize it for me as more of a power play kink moment.

I personally, my opinion only, do not like any of the shoves, slaps, or choking. It is badly done kink, in my opinion. If this is something that others want to leave, maybe under the make it hurt choice. But overall, I don't like any of it.

In my head, it is more for the bedroom, than a kiss that I would have before and after a fight. It is not something I would logically put out in public. That is for my Vampire Lord and I back in our tent. There are other ways to show spice in a kiss than poorly done BDSM attempts.

The shoves in the sex scenes were more for 'in the moment', not to be used for the kisses. It is pretty much nothing more than I would expect in the privacy of a bedroom between lovers.

For repeatable kisses, no. Just not my cup of tea. I also have a lot of respect for the kink community.

Just my humble opinion though.

Well, how to answer. Yes! I would confirm this. It IS mean. It's sadistic/dominant and Astarion himself is enjoying his sadism as we see it in his sadistic smile right after (the "poster smirk"). I love that. And if consensual (both enjoying the kiss), there wouldn't be a problem for people who like such a play. As Tav is reacting now, it's sexual abuse, and disturbing to most people, so of course Tav's facial expressions are kindly asked to be changed (and the camera angle would also be much better and spicier from the other side, where we see Astarion pulling Tav's face deeper in, instead of showing Tav's silly face). Tav is detesting Astarion in the whole bite kiss, from the start to the end right now. Tav's faces are liked for sexual sadists, and I honestly don't think, a lot of sexual sadists are playing this romance, as they could prefer a romance partner, who can be (sexual) abused, and not a male romance partner, who dominates or abuses their own player character. If there is a sexual sadist here and sees it differently, who plays the romance and likes to see his own character being suffering with pissed-off faces in kisses and being happy in all the other romance scenes around these kisses, don't hesitate to comment. Completely non-judgmental.


If the shove is "badly done kink" - everyone has the right to call it the way they want, I don't judge people for that - for me the shove itself and Astarion are not badly done, on the contrary, his sadism is more than spicy. Besides the "kneeling kiss", the pulling in, the shove and the sadistic smirk in the "bite kiss" are the spiciest part and one of the hottest scene I've seen in a game. I do love Astarion's animations. I totally understand people dislking the shove, but there are also a lot of people liking it (as seen in the survey: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=937668#Post937668 )
I'm still in favor of having "gentle" and consensual "dominant/rough" kisses to choose from, Tav enjoying all of them.

Honestly, I don't understand how the writers even envision this for the people who fell in love with Astarion? Those who believed in such "goodness", talked Astarion out of the ritual, didn't notice the wrong and played without spoilers also felt bad about this ending for many. I guess only those who view the game in a detached way, as a story, can appreciate this "dramatic", what were the ideas, lessons there, etc. But this is not a movie or a book, where you do not decide anything, but can only be an observer, what the hell can be the victory, what is the point in all these adventures, in all this way, if as a result of this happens to the most beloved person? "Good" in this world is a dangerous shit, mean and mocking. You need to know how to protect yourself from it, the evil ritual is perfect for this.


They fixed the other two kisses in the mod, I don't know how much I can accept this, in my opinion the hardest kiss, if I see a playful smirk on Tav's face, I have to test and try it out, we'll see. In "let it hurt" Astarion doesn't actually hurt, he just bites, it's predatory, overbearing (takes Tav by the neck), there's a kind of passion in it, but if you imagine, for example, Tav smiling and gently hugging Astarion during this bite, it would be a very romantic scene. It's even a shame I can't have both scenes, the "tenderly" one and this one. Except that the very request to "hurt" suggests that Tav wants to hurt specifically, and they like it that way. And the pushing away after trying to kiss Astarion - it makes it really hurt, not physically, worse, already on another level. But I can imagine if my Tav is smiling (she certainly wouldn't look angry either, maybe shock, stupor if Astarion suddenly acted like that) that Tav was somehow able to rationalize it, bought and read a D/s book (brothels have all sorts of erotic books) and realizes it's such a game and it's not real. Here are the grabbing I like too, and kneeling is no longer a problem either, with the face like mods, it's really a love game. "Kneeling" as an element of humiliation and submission - I was wondering why this particular gesture plays such a role in culture? And since a very long time ago. In case it is done in front of someone equal, another adult (kneeling when playing with a child to be on his level is a common natural action, it is not perceived in any way). Perhaps it has its roots in the ancient animal instincts of taller/lower - whoever is taller is stronger and more dangerous. By making ourselves inferior to someone else, we stand, from the point of view of instincts, in a vulnerable position. The rest is a socio-cultural superstructure, "that's the way it's perceived". Tav doesn't see Astarion as a threat, trusts him, including demonstrating his own safety for him. Plus the element of adoration. The worshippers of the gods kneel, praying before a statue of some man or woman who is basically nobody to them, they just need to get power from their divine channel or stay out of the Wall of the Faithless, well, or, hope they hear the plea and do something-anything-helpful. Many of the deities were also regular people, just at some point they got their hands on power. And it's not humiliating to ingratiate yourself with them, to fear their punishments, it's the right thing to do, otherwise you'll end up in Kelemvor's Wall. And in front of the most valuable person in your life, the real one, who is in front of you right now and not spitting at you from the domaine, is somehow humiliating. Social constructs are a funny thing if you start taking it apart and analyzing it. The problem is that pushing you away in response to an attempted kiss is no longer a social construct, it's not some strangers who, if anything, you can stand up and slap in the head who think you're being humiliated - it's Astarion himself doing it. As if Tav was something disgusting, annoying, intrusive. If that's not the case, and it's a playful pique, i.e. Astarion is not disgusted, then I'm just curious for myself to understand - why does he like it? What is it for, from the dominant's point of view, what is the pleasure in it? Validation that he is loved no matter what? That it can be done either way, pushing away is like breaking a bond, but there is no breaking of the bond, and Tav is his anyway, as validation of that? At the same time he pines, when Tav goes to communicate with others, he promises to follow every step, although with such checks it is possible, like, not to follow, the relationship is already periodically "tested for strength", if the partner understands and accepts it, where will such a partner go? Can it be perceived that Astarion needs love a lot, but at the same time he is pushing away, and if Tav smiles in this kiss, then Tav understands the reasons for this pushing away, does not take it personally and just continues to love Astarion?

It's hard for me to talk about kissing with a face like that.
Considering the impression is ruined.
But I'll try and imagine I've been given something to play other than AAstarion's victim, who can't break up in time and snogging him, then freaks out. (what Larian portrays is Tav doesn't trust, doesn't like it, so the only way out is to press break up and leave playing AA romance for those who want to torture Tav or play the ally-lover line without a single kiss, only with lines of which there are about six in the End Game, DU included)
So then my Tav is an intelligent and consenting character in a romance with an evil character.

1 - not explore Astarion s\m, power dynamics angle, there were hints, but it wasn't explored at all.
(and the meaning of kneeling as intimate, sacred, a bit ritualistic as an act of obedience and trust is almost evaporated).
For the player to learn why Astarion about it, what is liked, what is not, then there is some preparation also psychological. It's an intimate subject.
That's why I'm personally against doing his s/m thing, sadistic smirks, by animation method for February 14. “My Treasure” is a gentle dynamic. “We are sovereigns” is a power couple dynamic.

I can have interpretations that this is the moment when he shows his wild cat nature. He's shoving Tav in the graveyard a bit too.
He's had years and years of seductions where he's adjusted. What does he like? (reminding me he chose Lae in the first act-- \did he fight her or not?\)
Since he's sure Tav trusts him and won't take offense, he can make that play.

But it's so specific and without exploring by way of some intimate quest requires personal customization from the player in any way.
Like for example I feed my Tav to Astarion in Act 1, he kills my Tav, Tav through dialog says c'mon do again.

Unless of course there's a trope here: evil - is in bed lust, savagery and shoving, good - is tenderness white flowers.

2 - Since when does romancing an evil character for the path of evil imply countless kinks?
Superficial erroneous judgment.
Which annoys a people, by the way.
Choosing Evil = you're a Horny. And if someone really are a horny, among other things, that's also not the reason you choose evil.
Practical, cold attitude towards the medieval dangerous world, getting protection, personal gain, preferring a less moral and\or brutal method.

Astarion is of course a peculiar character with his quirks. It's a challenge to choose him.
The line between a challenge and something unpleasant, not engaging, or just cheap fanservice is precisely in point 1 - explanation, exploration

I view ascension as Astarion finally getting the power he and the PC have both been plotting to seize since the very first Act.

Another very prominent moment in the BG universe in which two villains (Astarion and Tav/Durge) secure their own power and independence from their masters. The game gives you the dialogue build a power hungry couple dynamic. I personally like that.

This just shows that there is no way to canonized the players "intention". Everyone brings their own filters, preferences, and world view to fiction. Saying "the entire audience did this thing because they all felt x" is logically impossible. That's not how human beings work.

At the end of the day I don't ever go in to spawn fan spaces and try to argue why they shouldn't suggest their own feedback and improvements. I don't even go in to debate why they shouldn't feel or play a certain way. I don't really understand that. How is it any of my business?

Now that their is a mod that reflects players preferences, and even an article on it, Larian has no reason to not at least realize they didn't provide the RP experience the majority of AA players desire.

All were asking for is consistency in writing.
The relationship is consensual given it's based off of player choice. Writers cannot make players "regret" something if that is not their perspective and they're still having fun. There's no reason for Tav to be surprised every time if it's a repeatable action. Particularly if they are so "terrified and mistreated" because Tav can still break it off at any time...

Pleasure just fix the victim faces. That's all we're asking.

I agree. If the player is not versed in the subject of dominance and submission, there is no preparation. The scene with Abdirak can be interpreted in many ways, not only as Astarion's desire to dominate (at least over Tav herself), but also as a challenge to Tav's strength and resilience. "What has he pushed me into? But I don't want to be a coward and a weakling in front of him, I won't turn back." Tav, going through Intimidation, gets no hint of future submission.

- Come on. A child can hit hander than that.
- You look tired. Should I take over?
- Hit me as hard as you can – or I’ll return the favour.

This is coming from the person who is supposed to be the intimidated victim, trembling on his knees in front of Astarion. Tav makes the goblin kiss her boot and Astarion approves. Astarion is seen as a sly provocateur who tests your strength, perhaps on what you're willing to do to show off to him, on leadership skills, after all he needs to know who's leading the group and who he seduced last night. It may seem like he likes strong women, yes, he likes to watch someone else's humiliation, like the same goblin, but it's not clear from this in any way that he suddenly wants to humiliate Tav specifically. Or that he wants Tav to submit to him. The player themselves have to step over their own emotional internal barriers, without any preparation, to be baffled, suffer, rethink, learn what D/s is, accept, find explanations. That's pretty much what makes choosing Astarion a challenge. But not a realistic one, because even before first knees, you can't even just ask, "Why?". Astarion doesn't explain anything, he's just sure that Tav likes it a priori, just because. The animation for February 14 kills everything, even the headcanon constructed idea that Tav understands Astarion and is giving it to him so he can feel better about himself.


He can make that play. To me, honestly, that's the biggest question - how much of his dominance is what he really truly truly wants, and how much is an act. Because there's no way of knowing how he would react if he found out that Tav didn't like degrading themselves, that Tav dreamed of something completely different. Tav plays the role of submissive in order to be able to love him and please him. If that is what, and only what, he really likes, that's one thing, it can be accepted. But if he himself is playing the role of such a dominant, then it turns out to be crazy in general. Instead of a story of love and total acceptance, it's a story of two actors doing what they do for no clear reason. Those kisses can never even be combined with a story like this - if Tav decided to play the role of submissive and pull it off, she would never make a scared face, she is in no way afraid of Astarion. If Astarion sees any painful emotion break out on Tav's face from this shove/slap game, he should stop and stop playing that way. Yes even in the case that he actually really enjoys it he should stop, wanting to dominate and wanting to do sadism are completely different things.


It's especially annoying when you consider how lustful the "good" is in this game. You can take the wonderful opportunity to have coitus with the entire party, with an illithid, a bear, in a brothel, whatever, and be a big shot and a hero while doing it. Once you show a realistic practical attitude to the world and want freedom and power for Astarion, that's it, you're an extremely lustful creature.

Someone at Larian, apparantly: We need to make sure that Ascended Astarion romancers feel bad about choosing the bad ending and continuing the cycle of abuse.

Someone else, IDK: Okay. So, that means we'll make the Spawn romance route more appealing, right?

Larian: No, actually, we'll make it super upsetting.

Someone: Why?

Larian: Because making the right choice doesn't always result in happiness.

Someone: So, when do Astarion romancers actually get to enjoy their path?

Larian: I don't understand the question.

(For legal purposes this is all a joke. I don't believe at all that this was the intent. But at this point it sure feels that way sometimes)

I found it somehow funny and fascinating, how a "keyword" can take on a life of its own and dominate minds, even in the gaming portals. Maybe it's more an american term? Because I myself have never heard of this before. While Astarion himself says: "But you saw something in me - someone else I could be. Someone who could break the cycle of power and terror that started centuries ago."
"power and terror" I interpret these terms for forms of rules / goverments, not for sexual abuse and I think, there is a great misunderstanding and difference in how to interpret these words. "Terror" is often mentioned in connection with war and domination, for spreading fear through violent actions to achieve political goals, not with a man or narcissist, who (sexual) abuses his partner, where the term "terror" in my opinion would be a bit over the top, at least in my language (Not that I want to belittle "abuse" in partnerships in any way, god forbid, but the term seems different to me than "power and terror") Astarion himself is crazy about power and wants to become the ruler of Baldur's Gate ("(...)Make this city his puppet"). Astarion is even thanking the souls he sacrified in the ritual for "power". Well I think people shouldn't get so stuck on this one (american?) term, which doesn't even appear in the game and people should instead make their own minds and interpretations in their playthrough and not force something on other players nor to let other people force their interpretation onto you.


Well I am not the one, who could explain these things in a proper way, as I am not sadistic. Maybe someone, who is, likes to join in, but I doubt anyone dares. (If a sexual sadist (moral or immoral) is interested in talking via pm, don’t hesitate to pm me. Without judging, I am interested in their point of view) But shoving Tav away does NOT mean, Astarion is disgusted by Tav. It's simply a sexual preference, when you enjoy inflicting pain on another human being, to humiliate, dominate or control them in intimate situations. This can be totally done and wanted in a loving relationship and be consenting on both sides. Doing power plays in a consenting way with your beloved partner needs a lot of trust from both sides. The last thing, a moral sadist who is into consenting partners, wants to, is to „really“ harm his partner. And again, they would never be disgusted by their partner.

(There is a wide range of sexual sadists, it ranges from wanting and only getting pleasure with a consenting partner to only looking for and getting pleasure with an unwillingness victim, which, when they truly live their preferences out, we have serial rapists and killers).

In all 3 kisses Astarion is having control, he starts and ends the kisses, as someone mentioned in the other thread before. And he is enjoying to have control and power, to examinate Tav and to dominate and humiliate. And there is the kneeling kiss, for me it's more an attempt to give players, who like this romance scene, a spicy scene. And there are AA Romance players, who appreciate this and the thought to give them spicy kisses. But what I'm actually getting at is there is still the possibility, someone of the Larian Team just mistook powerplays (where consenting is important), as there really are a lot of animes/porn/game novels out there, where, mostly female characters, got raped or abused against their will. There are a lot of sexual deviant stuff out there and there are men who are into it. Because storywise, as discussed before, and for reputation of an RPG game, it wouldn’t make any sense to portray Astarion and Tav - especially when partnered! - to participate in 3 kisses without the player character consenting, who, after showing disgust and hatred toward their romance partner, would not ask again, but rather break up or make suicide. That some people, who are not playing this romance, are celebrating this, is another thing and just shows, what kind of human being they are.

Edit: Uh, this thread has 66,666 views right now. Evil.

I don't love it no. But like Liryfire I have a hard time seeing the kisses behind the mask of horror and disgust on my character's face.
I like the submission but not so much the humiliation.

I'm also one who would like to move the kneeling kiss to perhaps the epilogue tavern scene (even though I do really like the kneeling kiss, if my character had the right expression!) because I don't think it fits in the repeatable kissing animations. And in my mind cheapens the kneeling during the night-of-turning, which is so freaking well done. Ascended Astarion romance scene is the best romance scene in any game. No competition for me. Having the kneeling kiss as a throwback at the end of the game would be perfect.


Spooky. Confirmation that we are being watched...

I don't know how many other Americans are on this thread, but I'd love them to chime in because I'm just one limited voice. But when I see the phrase "cycle of abuse," I personally usually see it in discussions of parental abuse, where a parent will be more likely to abuse or mistreat their child if they themselves were abused or mistreated by their parents. It's not even always about abuse; for example, I love my parents but I've picked up bad habits from them, some related to parenting, some not, that I struggle to break.

When it is a phrase brought up in relation to romantic relationships, it usually refers more to the fact that the relationship itself is a cycle. A person will abuse their partner, then try to make up for it by being sweet, showering them with affection, they are forgiven, and the whole thing starts again. My friend I mentioned earlier in this thread, I see this playing out with her over and over, with the same partner. I suppose a partner who's abused might be more likely to abuse another partner, but in my anecdotal experience, a partner that's abused will be more likely to end up in another relationship where they are further abused.

So, the question for me is, do either of those apply to Astarion's story? In my opinion, no. Just because he was abused doesn't mean it's a story about the "cycle of abuse." There's no significant hallmarks of either type of cycle I mentioned above. In the instances where he is cruel, he never apologizes, mostly because those are usually the moments where he ends the relationship. And I don't care what anyone says; he does NOT treat Tav anywhere close to how Cazador treated him. Cazador kept a torture journal for Astarion, for Pete's sake, and any claims that eventually AA will do the same are headcanon only, not based in any evidence in the text.

So, I think you're right. I think the phrase, "cycle of power and terror" has been completely misinterpreted and used as a reason to hate on this path (unless there's another source I've missed). If anything, that phrase serves to show how ascension does break the cycle. I mean, think about it. How much power and terror does Astarion really get up to after ascension? I know the epilogue only takes place six months later, but it really seems like he has little interest in rushing his dreams of "dominating the world." Spawn Astarion can assume that he would be a monster if he ascended (or maybe tell himself that to make himself feel better for rejecting it); it doesn't mean it will come to pass on the other timeline.

For what it's worth, I was just in in my daily team meeting for work and since we had nothing exciting going on and these are two Americans I had quick access to (both of them are male, in case it matters), I asked them what they think of when they think "cycle of abuse." I didn't mention Baldur's Gate or anything, just said it was a debate I was having with some friends They both said they think of parental relationships.

I also find the repetition of "cycle of abuse" a little odd. Particularly given Astarion's main writer has said outright they don't want Astarion to be reduced to his trauma. Reducing his entire story arc to his trauma seems counterintuitive to the writers intentions and the nuance of his character.

More than that, it's not mentioned in the game. Instead "the cycle of power and terror," which is further solidified with the "Tyrant" dialogue you can have with him post ascension. Which is a commentary on rulership. Not personal domestic violence.

I find the jump from "he's the new tyrant" to "he's going to commit domestic violence" deeply bizarre within the fantasy setting his story is established in. His personality traits mirror a typical vampire romance. As does the dynamic of his romance storyline.

It seems like cherry picking to apply hyper realism to his personality, when "vampirism" isn't in the DSM, but not do it for male popular characters such as Minthara. If we applied the same realism to her, Larian would be making PCs look ill and disgusted after every kiss to drive home the point players are being poisoned.

Why is it only women/queer folk can't have their fantasy? Why are we so strictly policed over our sexuality?

Please be consistent, Larian. Fix the faces. Or apply the same non-fantasy, Aesop fable lessons to all the romances.

"Vampirism isn't in the DSM" is a line I will be liberally using whenever anyone tries to armchair diagnose Ascended Astarion.

Yeah, I would rather not have any of the extra kisses and keep the original kisses in preference to the new ones, Neil's acting is amazing but I don't like this plot twist. It sucks.

I appreciate there is a MOD to fix Tav's face for two of the new kisses so far, however I would still miss the original kisses, they were more loving and romantic.

I didn't fight all this way through the game, build my Tav up in skills and confidence only to have the companion they love (Astarion), who they support, who they help to be able to walk in the sun, to never be the victim again, who they want to love eternally, then turn around and be incapable of loving them back.

Tav's love transforms Astarion, that is the story arch for all the companions; a Spawn Astarion accepts the dark, is no longer fearful of change and is more gentle, more willing to care about others, more confident that others can care about him and confident of Tav's love. An ascended Astarion is powerful, no longer restricted to the dark, or tormented by constant hunger, he doesn't fear anything, however realises that without Tav's love he is incomplete, he wants to love Tav, protect Tav, give Tav everything they desire and love them eternally.

Tav used to ask "Will you still drink my blood?" to which Ascended Astarion would answer "Yes, and you will drink mine, I can't wait to taste me on your lips." Now I am going off memory here, so I may not have the wording perfect but that convo did exist. When Tav asks in Act 1, how do you become a full vampire, Astarion advises that the Vampire, would have to willingly allow the Spawn to drink their blood. We know that the game will allow Spawn Tav to bite Astarion, AND there was this line, when Tav asks questions post transformation. This implies to me that the original intention was that an ascended Astarion would eventually allow Tav to become a full vampire.

He has only just become the Vampire Ascendent, he is learning what he is capable of. With power comes the fact that others will desire it and seek to take it, the dynamics have changed, he no longer sees Tav as being necessary for his survival, he no longer needs their protection.

However, he shouldn't then just lose all respect for Tav, forget all the love they have shared and want to degrade Tav for wanting to be with him.

It also sucks because I can't experience game play with the Ascended Astarion, he has all these great new skills that would be awesome for the final battle and because I can't let Ascended Astarion degrade my Tav, I can never ascend him. My Tav deserves better.

I only know the result of ascending Astarion because of Youtube, if I was playing this game blind, I would have ascended Astarion and then been absolutely heartbroken by the result. Rather a mean outcome for the player, I think.

I love spawn Astarion, but I also want to love ascended Astarion. I want the complete experience. But I am unwilling to compromise my Tav to do it.

Please Larian, give the player the choice, true freedom to have a vampire Tav equal to their lover.

To be fair, the "degrading" really only comes in the form of the kisses, or more specifically, in Tav's reaction to it. The way Ascended Astation treats a loving and willing Tav otherwise is the same as always. He's dominant but loving, makes it clear that whatever power he has is because of Tav, and something he wants to share. Neil's acting has little to do with the kisses themselves, besides any motion capture he may have done for them.

Agreed, starry. The rest of his interactions and dialogue are not much different than normal Astarion. Ascended he is still loving. It's very clear he wants to be with Tav. Tav is still free to make their own choices, even when Astarion doesn't like it. I don't really have an issue with Astarion and his authoritative love.

The issue is with the sudden switch to non-con for me. I pick Astarion because my Tav/Durges are morally grey and often villains. Not looking for a Wyll style romance. I enjoy Astarion as he is. I have an issue with Larian trying to control the players reaction to him. Because it does not match the kind of player who would gravitate toward Ascended in the first place.

Larian can't tell the audience "okay, this is how you feel now." No writer can do that. It's impossible. You can't suddenly make evil/dark romance players regret the thing that they always like.

Please no moral lessons. Let us enjoy our evil love with the same ability straight male players can enjoy theirs. Thanks.

It feels as if the game is trying to "enforce" that the "right" choice is to not like someone like Astarion at all. It is allowed to "like" him, but by no means, love him. You can use him, get the "cute vampire boy" thing, sigh at the end, "oh my poor baby, how bittersweet and dramatic!". Or better yet, realize that he's "dangerous to the world" and shouldn't get powers. You can "fix" him and drop him in the epilogue. There are UA fanfics where they dump Astarion at the end, and then, he's like, "he can start a new decent life on his own". Play with Astarion, dump him, marvel at the "author's concept", then play with Gale, Will, or Halsin, they don't need to be "fixed", and you'll get your dose of romance. It feels like the player who loves Astarion is treated as an enemy by the game itself, you have to fight for him not within the story, but directly against the story. And in patch 6, the player is not only made to feel bad, but also shown to the "right" players the "enemy image" - humiliated, miserable, hurt, weak, pathetic, shaking. It's just a stupid victim who didn't realize who she was dealing with and what "smart people" were trying to tell her all along. It is not a sin to mock such a person, the victim is asking to be humiliated.

(For legal purposes: this is just a subjective feeling. Emotion Description. Of course, all of this was done unintentionally. Just for hype, to give everyone more kisses and get more votes before BAFTA).


Yes, in my language "terror" also has this meaning, as you wrote. The word "violence" is used for "abuse" in a partnership, and the word "violence" can be applied not only to domestic violence, but also to describe the physical harm done to a person by a person, whether they are partners or not. So "violence" is something that can happen between people. And "terror" must be committed by some group of people against a large number of people (in a crowded place, against a populated area). There can also be " government terror" on the part of the state against citizens. Even a mugger in a back alley taking a victim's wallet is committing robbery, an act of violence, but not terror. There's no hint of possible domestic violence in this line from Astarion, there's a hint that Astarion could possibly terrorize the city as an Ascended, or Astarion just knows that Tav might think so and says something that Tav will be pleased to hear, like, he doesn't want to be any kind of tyrant, and is grateful that you see something different in him. By the way, in the entire 6 months after the finale and before the party, Astarion is all about having fun and giving balls.It seems the craving for the pleasures he's been deprived of for 200 years and the hedonism in him is stronger than the desire to engage in terror.


That knowledge makes things a lot easier, but the trouble is that at the end, Astarion smiles as if he enjoyed the fact that he found your weakness and mocked you. Yes, it's a poster smile, and it looks cool on the poster, I mean, I like his smirk on its own, but in the context of the situation, it expresses emotional sadism. Astarion himself doesn't explain anything or try to show in any way that there's really no disgust. Being able to test this scene with a normal face at Tav's would have been able to give a more objective assessment of this action.It's unlikely that Astarion would sneer like that when he saw Tav in pain, just as Tav would never say to Astarion, "You're mine!" even in a fit of passion, knowing that's what Cazador said, and it could be a trigger phrase for Astarion, only Astarion himself can say, "You're mine!" and he can be told, "I'm yours!". Yes, in reality they could talk things out, and the game, alas, will never give that opportunity. I would like to see a real, as realistic as possible Astarion in my game and to understand if he will feel deprived if I don't let him shove me (download a mod, try to cut this scene somehow with program code and so on) is probably impossible, one can't ask Astarion about it. In patch 5, Astarion felt kind of great, and then it turns out he needs to be like this...


I totally agree. It cost a mod to change the facial expressions in the two kisses and that's it, those scenes stopped being violent. And what's in the game now is a sexual deviation that makes no sense whatsoever. About Astarion's own animations - there's a problem with the trigger actions. First and foremost is the choking element when Astarion takes Tav by the throat. While I personally like it, that moment can cause triggers for other people, and not everyone will be able to play it even with a smiley face. With the shoving off, it's more of an emotional moment, there's no reference to physical danger here, which is why I wanted to try to understand the psychology of the dominant, how much it's even freaking necessary, and why, to accept it or not. But approaching Astarion with your fingers crossed, saying "My love, let's not now, let's you choose something else" in response to his "Ask for me and it will be yours" until perceptions are realigned is probably pretty weird too.

But the hand off the throat needs to be removed from the main game, at the very least. Or separation depending on the choice of "gentle" or "let it hurt". The existing D/s scenes involve too many personal aspects of different people, I understand those who want to keep them, but some other option should be given, either change the facial expressions in D/s scenes and allow the player to easily enable them themselves in the game in the control menu, and by default make the game a romantic and loving kiss without any controversial moments.


Incidentally, there are sometimes comparisons of Cazador to an abusive parent. Perhaps there is such a reading. But such a message is very cruel and insulting to the real victims of domestic violence. As if you can't love them, you can't "give them everything," you have to fear them, or you will become a victim yourself. I hope that's not what the authors were putting in their "ideas" after all. Especially since Cazador is not Astarion's father, the fact that Cazador called his spawn "family" reminds me more of a maniac who can keep several victims in his basement for years and call them his "family". That said, Cazador was trying to "raise" them, similar to what psychopathic parents do. But as we see in Astarion, he was not broken by this "upbringing", he remained himself despite all the trauma.


Yes, by the way, that's exactly how psychologists describe it, I've read about it too. If it was meant in terms of leaving Astarion with his loving remarks, which would create, along with the sadistic kisses, the illusion of such an attitude, then it clearly doesn't work that way. Instead, we see a man with the mental illness of "short-term kissing" and amnesia, who commits an act of violence in response to a certain trigger (" May I kiss you?") and then remembers nothing of what he did.

And I agree with Natasy on this subject. Stephen Rooney clearly didn't want anything like this.


I really wish Larian would pay attention to this. How does a person even get through this game now, playing spoiler-free, blindly? Be shocked, traumatized, and hurt? There have already been enough obstacles to Ascension, Astarion gives out enough "scaremongering" about submission for an unprepared player. One had to either know that everything would be fine afterward, or go "spite" through: "I'm going to help you anyway, all this 'goodness' is going to hell!!!!". But it used to be things got good afterward, but now the sadistic scenes are triggered right after Ascension, without even waiting for the night, before Tav's conversion to a spawn.


+1