Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General Cruel ... (Peek 33)

Well, what the Larians have worry about now can be read here :
Peek 33 of RPGVault

I have only one word for that : "Cruel". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

I simply fail the words. I cannot say anything. This is just uncredibly cruel ... How ...


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />


An saddened Alrik.

Well with all that experience dealing with the copy protection softwaren they shouldn't have problems for the english version. You can say that allmost every fault/bug theire had with it theire aren't that many over. Speaking of english version should't <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> getting near the gold version stage (end of this week). It was a week before the german release but I think that the duplicators need more time for the english release. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

sad... not cruel. I can understand the copy protection, but apparentely they hadn't covered every aspect of the protection when they (the larians or the publishers) decided which protection to use.

but it's sad anyway

I feel sad for them (and us) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Well, 70.000 files is quite a lot ... and even worse : You don't actually know for what to look for ...

Sounds like sadism to me.

The correct way would be to create a program that scans the cd and the un encrypted version. Is a file is the same it isn't encrypted and you've found the file. Takes a lot less time then searching in 70000 files.


I wonder how the files ar encrypted maybe a robust cryptography architecture, using DES keys in CBC mode with a random initialization vector. Now, I know what you're thinking... "Morbo, the CBC encrypt uses a zero seed number so keys could be recovered by parallel processors running a virtual network protocol in a trivially short timeframe." But in my opinion, that's f* male cow excretions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

I hate to hear things like this...

At what point does the cost (in time, money, and of course hard currency) to implement the copy protection for these games outweigh any potential savings by thwarting piracy? Has anyone ever studied that? (Seriously - has anyone ever run the numbers?)

So many game releases these days are plagued by bugs, and so often they are directly or indirectly related to the CP that is used. It just seems like a big fat waste of time to me, but what do I know?

After reading the peek a few weeks ago about all the issues they had with CP when trying to produce the German Gold master, and now this - it seems like all those hours could have been better spent on improving the game content for the consumers, rather than making the game less stable and more prone to crashing...

(P.S. I always buy my games, in case anyone's thinking otherwise)

that's being a game developer an adventure of unpredictability, they'll get through it and get the game out in May. Can you imagine a game with no copy protection? LOL! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />
As for bugs just talk to a programer that has to do the bug check bug list, of course there are going to be a few bugs on release of a game. Alright this is redundent.

Maybe the software is encrypted to hide all the bugs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

I don't know - has anyone ever PROVEN that these new hard-core CP schemes are worth the extra cost?

I guess what I'm getting at is something like this (note that I have no idea what the actual numbers are, so that's why I asked the question). Of course this is over-simplified.

Also, my brain (and keyboard) only works in US dollars, but if you replace the ($) with the euro symbol, the point is the same -

Cost to ship software with hard-core CP:

1)CP software license: $AAAA
2)Man-hours spent implementing CP before release: 80? 100? 200?
2a) Hours spent x Hourly Wage = pre-release CP Labor Cost ($BBBB)
3) Hours spent after release, fixing CP-related issues, and/or extra time spent making non-CP related fixes work with the CP: 60? 80? 200?
3a) Hours x wage = Post-release CP labor cost ($CCCC)

$AAAA + $BBBB + $CCCC = $DDDD (Total cost of implementing CP)

Now, look at the following:
4) Number of sales lost to software piracy with no CP (EEEE)
5) Number of sales lost to piracy even WITH CP (FFFF)
6) (EEEE) - (FFFF) = sales "gained" by implementing CP (GGG)
7) Larian's income per unit ($H) x number of unit sales gained (GGG) = Total euro/dollar value gained by implementing CP ($IIII)

Is $IIII a LARGER number than $DDDD???

OK, that was a lot more confusing than I intended (sorry)...

Of course, the only ones that can answer that for sure are the fine people at Larian, and I don't really expect them to come on this forum and share the actual numbers.

I just have to wonder whether all the extra work, and all the ill-will from consumers when legitimately purchased software doesn't work due to the copy protection, is worth the trouble???

Look at Sacred for a perfect example of a very recent game that has generated a LOT of ill-will among paying consumers due to its CP... (though Sacred works fine on my computer - so far!)

No matter what problems the Larians come across, they conquer them and will get the game out.

The problem with trying to figure out how much effort is worth it for copy protection is that the numbers on how much gets pirated are mostly guess work. The cost of implementation and extra support can be determined, but it is hard to figure out how increased sales due to copy protection compare to that.

Exactly my point - so why do all these companies insist on putting themselves (and their legitimate paying customers) through all the aggravation if they don't even know that it's saving them any money??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Read Peek 31 and Peek 33, and then tell me it's worth all of that extra work...

Look at how many recent game releases have been plagued by CP-related bugs, preventing legitimate customers from even installing or playing the game - bugs that weren't present in the game prior to the CP being added.

Then think about all the cool features or cool bonus items or extra areas (or just plain gameplay tweaks) that the Larian team could have put into the game if they didn't have to spend so much time futzing around with stupid CP stuff.

So what's the answer? Who knows? But I know I'm going to wait a couple of weeks after this game is released before buying, to make sure that all these last second bugs really did get squashed. I've spent my money on too many other games recently, only to end up serving as a beta-tester for the first couple of months while they ironed out all the bugs that should have been caught LONG before release...

Anyway, I'm not trying to start any arguments about software piracy, and I'm certainly not defending it - I just hate it when paying customers suffer because of issues caused by CP that may or may not be providing any actual benefit to the developers.

I do wish the Larian team all the best, and hope it all works smoothly at release.

John (aka Lord Bubba)

P.S. On a related note - I HATE games that make me keep the CD in the drive in order to play. I do other things with my computer, and swapping CD's in and out every time I want to play the game is beyond annoying! Can you imagine if you had to insert your Microsoft Office CD every time you wanted to open Outlook or Word or Excel? Then insert your Photoshop disc to edit a couple of pictures? Then BACK to the Office disc to check e-mail? It would never fly - so why do game developers get away with it???

fyi: lionheart full version has no cd protection on it.

& bless larians on the earlier decisions to hold back the english version to make it better. now i'm very very thankful that they do so i don't have to feel frustrated (i imagine) as our german gamer friends.

i really hope the larians will have the problems fixed with least amount of pain & frustration.

I think office is ALOT smaller then a 2.5 GB Rpg. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />



@Gamespy preview.


Wow! sounds realy really good, and I CAN not wait!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

They exist! Just a few:

• Bandits: Pheonix Rising
• Total Annihilation
• Alpha Centauri

I'm not a pirater myself, but it has come in handy for playing multi-player.

Total Annihilation?! Thats before there was copy protection if I remember right... lol. Or at least it seems that way...

(Go TA2! I hope they make a newer version of this great classic!)

From what I understand, it was not Larians decision to use CP, but that of their publisher. They just have to cop all the extra work needed to make the game playable. I too hate leaving the CD in the PC. It can eventually damage the disc and there goes your game. I've heard it happened a lot with NWN.

Knock on wood =>
I did have probs with CP in several games (not in BD or Div though) - but so far never had a CD damage, cause I usually leave my original CD in the drive (yes, even in NWN and 1st add-on).

As for my own frustration/anger about CP probs => it doesn't go into publisher/dev direction but is directed solely at copy pirates! CP wouldn't be necessary if gamers would play fair.

I feel very sorry for the trouble the Larians (and probably other devs/publishers) had/have.

CP is a must these days and I hope this protection hold. Just think it like this


605.60 million people use the internet.
Let's say that 10% have the technical expertise to crack something
thats 60,56 million people
Now lets say that of those 10% 1% actually hack games.
Thats 605 600 people. And a harder CP has a side effect because it's harder more people will trough themselves on it to prove they are better then the others because he defeated the cp.

That's a lot of people that the CP must hold back.

Like I said in my pervious post

I wonder how the files ar encrypted maybe a robust cryptography architecture, using DES keys in CBC mode with a random initialization vector. Now, I know what you're thinking... "Morbo, the CBC encrypt uses a zero seed number so keys could be recovered by parallel processors running a virtual network protocol in a trivially short timeframe." But in my opinion, that's f* male cow excretions.


If you understand that your one step closer into being 1 of that 10% have the technical expertise. Best way to prevent copies => lots of patches because they loose interest very fast they probably won't write cracks for the updated version. (according to my professor) (Larian is on thr right track sort of speak <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />)