Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Meaningful Backgrounds For Custom Characters

https://youtu.be/qboLvZ5YQSg?t=5066

Here is my plea for you to not give up on making the character backgrounds more expansive. I am saying this as someone whose favorite game of all time is Divinity: Original Sin 2. The biggest flaw with that game’s story (outside of the journal, but thats a thread I'll make for another time) is the background tag, and Origin character system. A custom character can’t be as great as an Origin character, because they innately have less options that are available to them. Custom characters aren't better just because I am the one who made them. For example there is little reason to play a mystic scholar undead, because Fane exists, he is an inherently more interesting character, because characters already know him and react accordingly, and he has more dialogue options my custom character can never have access to, just because he's Fane. Having only classes, and races matter, is again going to run into this similar trap, because a githyanki fighter, solider, with the same stats as Lae'zel will be less interesting than just playing Lae’zel herself. The systemic benefits of picking a background are great, but you can, and should take it further just for custom characters, because it will allow them to feel like they belong to the world. Now because criticism without critique isn’t particularly helpful I’m going to try my best to explain what I hope you do with backgrounds instead.

Folk Hero: You come from a humble social rank, but you are destined for so much more. Already the people of your home village regard you as their champion, and your destiny calls you to stand against the tyrants and monsters that threaten the common folk everywhere.

I’m going to talk about the Folk Hero background first, because it was the background that made you unsure of what to do with backgrounds. When the player selects this background they should have a drop down that lets them choose what they did, in a similar fashion to selecting a deity or patron for a cleric or warlock.

1 I stood up to a tyrant’s agents.
2 I saved people during a natural disaster.
3 I stood alone against a terrible monster.
4 I stole from a corrupt merchant to help the poor.
5 I led a militia to fight off an invading army.
6 I broke into a tyrant’s castle and stole weapons to arm the people.
7 I trained the peasantry to use farm implements as weapons against a tyrant’s soldiers.
8 A lord rescinded an unpopular decree after I led a symbolic act of protest against it.
9 A celestial, fey, or similar creature gave me a blessing or revealed my secret origin.
10 Recruited into a lord’s army, I rose to leadership and was commended for my heroism.

Since all the custom characters either originated from Baldur’s Gate, The Underdark, or the Astral Plane you should customize each of these to the place of origin. For the sake of keeping this lengthy post as brief as possible just assume I’m using Baldur’s Gate as the place of Origin. I’ll use 2 as an example to what you could write there. “I saved the inhabitants of Candle Keep from a raging fire, managed to put it out, and save most of the people”. If I select this the people of Candle Keep, characters related to Candle Keep, and several citizens of Baldur’s Gate should know who I am, and react accordingly. If you want to take this even further you could have whatever alignment the player choose at character creation impact how the character went about performing this action at the time. Characters could refer to them as “The hero of Candle Keep”, and based on the character's disposition in combination with your original alignment they say it in a cheerfu/hopefull, or sarcastic/antagonistic way. Maybe throughout their journey they learn the fire was not actually a natural disaster, but something Raphael orchestrated, which ties this custom character the player made back into the main plot of the game. When you combine this with a character’s race, class(s), and ability score you have a significantly more fleshed out custom character that can actually rival the various Origin characters you’re creating. My next, and final example will be on the Criminal Background, because that is the background I have the most interest in playing for early access, and the full release.

Criminal: You are an experienced criminal with a history of breaking the law. You have spent a lot of time among other criminals and still have contacts within the criminal underworld. You’re far closer than most people to the world of murder, theft, and violence that pervades the underbelly of civilization, and you have survived up to this point by flouting the rules and regulations of society.
1 Blackmailer
2 Burglar
3 Enforcer
4 Fence
5 Highway robber
6 Hired killer
7 Pickpocket
8 Smuggler

Again, the criminal specialty should be a drop down list of choices I get to choose from that has an impact on what I was doing before I got captured by mindflayers. They should influence how the people in Baldur’s Gate react to me, and it should tie back into the main narrative in some way.

1 “I was a Blackmailer, and I found a lot of dirt on someone that was a hindrance to my clients plans within the city of Baldur’s Gate” (perhaps my client was Raphel, another antagonist in the game, or someone working against them).
6 “My last target that I succeeded in killing was important in some way to the antagonists of the game, before my abduction at the hands of mindflayers” (This is the specialty that I have the most interest in picking).

Feature: Criminal Contact
You have a reliable and trustworthy contact who acts as your liaison to a network of other criminals. You know how to get messages to and from your contact, even over great distances; specifically, you know the local messengers, corrupt caravan masters, and seedy sailors who can deliver messages for you.

Either before or after the player picks their specialty, they should also have a contact within Baldur’s Gate that they can select. Perhaps it ranges from a mafia organization, to the thieves guild, or assassin’s guild, and alignment can have a factor in how famous or infamous the player is within this organization. Alignment could decide who my contract within the organization was, so that the custom character and contact are on the same wave length, and good friends. You could also maybe limit specialty to the type of contact that you pick. Specialty and alignment could also determine what the players' current relationship with the flaming fist mercs, and the politicians of Baldur's Gate are.

In preview material we saw a dream sequence for Astarian, and I would love it if every custom character had dream sequences that let us act out the moments that led up to our abduction at the hands of mindflayers, and other sequences at camp where our companions also try to get to know who we used to be. I would also suggest replaying the opening hours of Dragon Age: Origins as various different origins for inspiration on how to improve this. If the player has a patron or diety they should have an option of saving how much influence that being had on their background

I hope I’ve made a strong enough case for you kind folks at Larian to keep trying to do more with Backgrounds for custom characters to make them more meaningful, and story relevant. I am really looking forward to Early Access, but that last bit during the Q.A sent me massive red flags that you were repeating the same mistake, and not giving custom characters the love they to truly feel like a part of the world, and not just a complete blank canvas. I know this is going to be alot of work, but I can promise you, if you do this it will make the game such a significantly better experience for so many players, and you've show you're unwillingness to compromise on quality in the past.

Uh, I agree that an extra effort to make the custom-made character as interesting as the origin characters, both in SP but also in MP.

In the character creation it´s showed that Origin characters have the standard backgrounds too. Lae´zel is a soldier, Gale is a sage, etc.So I do not think the background would be something that could make a meaningful difference between origin and custom characters.

I think backgrounds itself will work the same as tags in dos and Iwd dialogues. The NPC will react differently if your character has a background or feature.



That said, those things you mentioned about backgrounds are just guidelines (blackmailer, etc) they´re not mandatory. Most players usually write their own story but if they don´t or they do not feel inspired, the manual will give you some optional guidelines, the ones you mention, the "defining events" for folk hero and "specialities" for criminal.

You can also roll a random character: You roll a d10 and take the defining event with that number for your character. Same with a d8 for speciality and personality and d6 for ideal and flaw.
And then you write a characters based on those options if you like improv.

The thing that all backgrounds give and it´s the same for every character are the skill/language/tool proficiency of that background and the feature: criminal contract for criminal and "Rustic Hospitality" for folk hero; but his/her story is made by you.

Every character has to have a background, but they can have backgrounds be more meaningful for custom characters, while still just letting backgrounds simply provide tool and skill proficiency for Origin characters. All the custom characters hail from Baldur's Gate, The Underdark, or the Astral Plane, so letting backgrounds influence how the people of those places feel about a custom character can go a long way in making them feel meaningful, which is what I tried to explain in my post. Skill proficiencies, and ability score is a nice step towards making custom characters more meaningful, but they can go further with it using the player's handbook's suggestions as a part of character creation.

I get it, but what´s the point on making a custom character if they tell me I have only 10 options I would have for a defining event, 8 for personality and specialization, 6 for flaws etc? Wouldn´t that be just another origin character?

Maybe it´s the D&D player in me, but I usually want to make a custom character because I want to make his/her story myself. That would be like making a watering-down origin characters of the custom characters, if I understood correctly.

OP, this, this, 100 times this.

Currently, it sounds like they are settling for the worst option, which is to not implement backgrounds in dialogue at all. It's great and all that the system will acknowledge it for whatever checks, but if you can never talk about it, it feels less present/real/important which makes the character feel less present, real, and important.

The less ideal way to go about it would be less detail, keep it vague but still KEEP IT. If the problem of the Folk Hero tag in conversation is that it begs the question, "In what way are you a folk hero?" you could simply have the details not included but the outline there. You could say something like, "I'm kind of a big deal" / "I've handled this sort of rescue situation before" / "I do this all the time" and an NPC could reply, "Oh, I've heard of you, some hero, huh?" type of thing. Obviously with better writing. It's vague, but it's still in some small way acknowledged and leaves the player to fill in the rest.

The dropdown menu at character creation would be a solid way to implement it without needing additional cutscene-style moments and/or additional writing specifically to clear it all up, and would allow for more specific tags for checks+dialogue throughout the game from the get-go. That being said, DA:I had a conversation or two fairly early on that was designed to let you specify what your past was like and your options there were remembered for future references (not a lot of references, unfortunately), and I think the idea of having a thoughtful camp moment or dream sequence style to determine specifics is similar and would be really clever if the capability is there to have responses remembered for future reference in conversation and system checks.

If the capability is NOT there to remember responses (which would strike me as odd) then and only then can I understand the hesitance and the decision to just drop it entirely from conversation dialogues and focus on race and class checks only.

The concern is that a custom character does feel like a watered down Origin character, or did in DOS2. Previously we were told that would not be the case with BG3, but the stream stated things have changed since what they were originally trying to do. Origin characters may have the same tags as a custom character, but more of their details can be acknowledged in the game. For example, the camp scene in which Astarion contemplates events: he was seducing a young noble, luring him to his Master -- he can think of things related to his specific past, the lack of sun and his Master's temper and so on.

Will a custom character have that moment? Would it be that specific? How could it possibly be, if their background isn't acknowledged to the same degree? Maybe some people would be fine playing that out in their head, essentially pretending throughout the entirety of the game that who they have been is being acknowledged, but for the game design and content itself, that suggestion is severely lacking.

Yes, it would be nice if had Larian had unlimited resources to provide as many, minute, granular options as possible, but that isn’t a realistic expectation.

They stated that they will include the previous history of the custom characters in the dialogues, what they maybe do not use are classes (because you can multiclass)

https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/custom-characters

For choice history made throughout the game, yes, which is nice -- but not for Backgrounds. In the most recent stream, Swen specifically said backgrounds are not included within dialogue options, just systemic checks; they are heavily focusing on class and race for conversations. To me, that seems a bit limiting, a little bland; a "less is less" situation. I was giving a lot of thought to background, though, so hearing that it won't be acknowledged as much in as open a way is probably more disappointing for me at this time.

If it´s true that´s dissapointing.

I fully agree that not being able to have backgrounds impact dialogue is incredibly limiting and kind of disappointing. I feel as though backgrounds give so much extra vibrancy to a character, and when your companions are also essentially pre-made characters who have deep, pre-set backstories already implemented, I think that a custom main character should be at least as interesting as them. I mean you can play as a vampire spawn with a uniquely crafted backstory that impacts the current events of the game, or a member of a race that has a personal beef with the Mindflayers, adding an immediate extra dimension to the conflict. When you have options like that, then from a narrative perspective what's the incentive to create your own character whose background is basically incedental or even irrelevant to the story at hand? Sure there's the mechanical aspect of wanting to play around with builds and what have you, but in a game clearly so focused on narrative and story, I don't think that's an adequate counterargument.

In the original pillars of Eternity game you pick a background for yourself. Not only does it get referenced at times throughout the game and open up extra dialogue for you (not a lot but still some) but you also have a conversation right near the beginning where you talk to someone and get to expand on your history, why you're out where you are and what you're hoping to achieve. Those questions don't have any in-game effect but they immediately went a long way-for me at least-in helping me connect to my character and build up who she was in my mind. I feel like that's what backgrounds can do in an RPG. Stats and stuff decide who your character is in the moment, but backgrounds let you connect with your characters past and shapes them on a deeper level.

Losing the background tags for dialogue was the only real thing I found disappointing in the latest video.

However, I disagree with the OP that adding more options is the way forward. This is exactly the problem they had. They already have a ridiculous amount of dialogue tree options to manage, so any suggestions need to be a feasible as possible to stand a chance. I’d suggest one of the following:

1. Just make it vague.

If you’re a folk hero, you’ve done something to help the downtrodden. Some people will recognize your name and know your story, but they don’t have to spell it out. Maybe you meet someone whose life you saved? Maybe some nobleman demands compensation for the damage you caused doing whatever? No one actually needs to say what you did.

If you’re a criminal, you could have contacts and a reputation in the criminal underworld. There could be people who are happy to see you and want to work with you again, others you had a “professional disagreement” with. The details don’t have to be explained.

2. Have a set backstory for each background.

Obviously that means you won’t head canon your own story, but it could allow more interesting dialogue and quest options relating to your background. This could even allow custom character stories to be as detailed as the Origin characters if they want to take it as far as they can go.

3. Set backstory as above, but also include an option for “undefined” on each.

So if you like the sound of the folk hero or criminal backstory, you can play that and get the story/dialogue elements. If not, you can just pick a generic folk hero or criminal which only gives you the basic advantages/disadvantages without the specific dialogue. That would effectively mean 3 tiers of character customization/background- Origin characters, custom characters with backstory, and generic custom characters with only vague backgrounds.

Not sure if some of you fine folks understand the difference between a video game and a live session with an actual DM.
You won't be able to send a chat message to the Larian developers, come up with a personal background and have them patch it into the game.



These background options are tools that you and your DM work through to tie you into the game world in a way that is not feasible with a video game.
The more generic you make them the more meaningless they are to reference in the game.
They still have in game consequences of giving you abilities you otherwise wouldn't have access to.



Larian has chosen to focus on reacting to your in game actions instead of some nebulous and generic tag to determine how the game is going to react to you.
IMHO that is a much better option as it makes what you do in game more meaningful with consequences as opposed to the game reacting to a checkbox during character creation.

I hear you and it's a good point you make. It's just that the part of the equation that kind of rankles me is the fact that we have a number of party members with fully developed backstories that we can choose to play as, and I feel as though if you're going to offer those as choices then there should be something that allows custom player characters to stand on the same level. I'll be glad to hear that I'm wrong and I missed something, but what exactly is the benefit of playing a custom character with a narratively irrelevant background when compared to playing characters with fully fleshed out backgrounds? I may be overestimating the amount of attention the companion backgrounds are going to get in the actual game but I do think, especially considering at least some of these companions will present unique stories to experience in gameplay (looking at you Asterion) then a custom character should bring something equivalent to the table.

I'm aware that as a video game these things will have greater limitations, but based on everything else they're doing for this game it seems as though those limitations aren't beyond their capacity to address. They're going to the trouble of accounting for every instance of running water that could do damage to Asterion and allowing you to speak to animals. This doesn't feel like a significantly greater devotion of resources than either of those things. Now let me be clear that I don't think I know better than them, if they've decided that this isn't where they want to devote resources, I accept that and at this point i have no meaningful doubt that this game will be good, and if it isn't good, then this background issue certainly won't be the reason why. I'm just voicing my feelings as to why I think this is an issue they should rethink. If the product they put out for early access doesn't feel satisfying with regard to backgrounds in Early Access, I'll say so as part of my feedback. If they decide not to take that criticism on board then I'll just accept that it wasn't something they were able to suitably accomplish, because all the insane stuff they're putting into the game so far tells me that only genuine inability would lead to them not implementing such a roleplay-important feature.

To me the difference is that the companions you can play as have exactly one background. So if you wish to play as a warlock who is trying to get out of his pact, or a vampire spawn , or mage with a bomb in their chest those options are available. If any of those pre-scripted backgrounds appeal to you can choose those characters but they are exceedingly narrow. You can choose to make the game more reactive by giving up freedom in character creation.

If you look at the folk hero there are 10 different defining events, 8 different Personality Traits, 6 different Ideals, 6 different Bonds, and 6 different Flaws for a staggering 17,280 possible combinations.
That's just too much to script.

If you wanted to make it meaningful then each background could have exactly one detailed option ,however once you do that then how is choosing a pre-scripted background different than playing as one of the companion characters?

As a character without pre-made story hooks you get to create your story by choosing how you react to the world as presented to you without the burden of a developers backstory. Playing my character how I choose, reacting to the world around me and basing my choices on what I think my character would do at that given moment are far more compelling to me than having the game pre-script things based on choices made by the developer.

First off, the reason we’re talking about this is that it’s something Larian had planned to do, and appear to have decided it’s now not worth it. Most people seemed to agree that in DOS2 the origin characters were just the better option, and Larian said they wanted to make custom characters’ stories roughly on par with the origin characters and I think using the backgrounds was one of the ways to do it. I think that’s why some people are a bit disappointed with the news.

If they think their time is better spent elsewhere, that’s actually fine by me. However the reason they gave for cutting it is much as you described. ie all the possible permutations of specific details. But I would argue that they needn’t worry about all those possibilities. They could either make the backstories quite vague and generic, or pick one set backstory for each background (more details in previous post).

I absolutely agree that the decisions you make playing the game are most important, but I don’t really agree that having a backstory should diminish that. It wouldn’t really need to be a very big deal. It could just open up a few different possibilities and change how a couple of select characters react to you. eg. If you get involved in a heist, it would be nice if your criminal background (and maybe contacts) counted for something, compared to being say an aristocrat.

As for the difference with origin characters, I think it would all depend on how far they take it. You’re right that it’s a trade off between defining your own character (largely head canon) and making it meaningful (plus developer time). I doubt there’s an ideal sweet spot that would satisfy everyone, but there maybe room for a good compromise.

I think the best way to do it might be to keep any details of what you did super vague and unspecified, but make the opportunities your vague history opens up more interesting than just the occasional unique line of dialogue.

Larian tried to implement them and found that they didn't add enough.
The more the game reacts to what your character does the less important these check boxes take.




If you get involved in a heist your criminal background will give you proficiency in Perception, Stealth and Thieve's tools.
That's a significant advantage over a Noble's History and Persuasion.




The vaguer they make them the more insignificant they become.

To each their own I suppose but IMHO Backgrounds are a great story hook to tie your character to your DM's world. They are personally tailored to your character and give your DM ways to personalize their adventures.

When they are generic they just don't add anything significant.

yeah the comment about not going into the background sits wrong with me.

I, and from what ive gathered almost nobody else, dont give a shit about the origin characters. Companions are fine.
I don twant to be penalized for playing my own character

Sorry, but that’s not what Swen said. Unless you’re referring to something other than the latest video, at 1:24:30?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qboLvZ5YQSg

He says that the writers were having problems coming up with dialogue as they wanted to know the details of the background. He doesn’t say anything about it not adding enough.



Sure, but there are other ways to get these buffs. They aren’t unique or particularly interesting. You could make noble who is sneaky and proficient with thieves tools (I believe Asterion a posh rogue for example?). Whereas if you have some previous history with the criminal underworld, the perps you work with could have confidence that you can get the job done, that they wouldn’t have with a noble they don’t know.

Mechanically, it might work just by having significant modifiers to any reputation or attitude system, but a few specific lines of unique dialogue with specific NPCs who acknowledge your (undefined) history would help sell that idea, IMO.

This could also work against you sometimes of course. Maybe there’s a city guard who recognizes you and is immediately suspicious? Maybe a trader you need to get a key item from flat out refuses to have anything to do with you? You may need to rethink your approach to a particular situation.



This is the main thing I disagree with. I think the specific details of your backstory can be completely separated from any opportunities for interesting situations that a background can give.

On one hand, they could write a whole bunch of dialogue where NPCs talk at length about you specific past deeds, but it makes no difference to anything that happens or that you do. On the other, they could lead to interesting situations and different options without anybody ever remarking on what you actually did in the past.

Two more examples:

Say during a quest you decide to turn a criminal in to the law. For most people turning in a crook would be pretty normal and expected behavior. But if you’re also known to be a criminal you are now a snitch. As everyone knows “snitches get stitches”, so that could lead to interesting consequences.

What if a poor peasant invites your folk hero character into their home and you take advantage of the opportunity to rob them of their meager possessions? That might be seen as much worse than some random theft. It would be a betrayal, and you could well find yourself facing an angry mob.

I honestly think that they could make the effects on the game as simple or as complicated as they like, without ever going into detail about a specific backstory. Anything from just a couple of line of dialogue to acknowledge your background, to unique and very involved situations and choices.

None of that is to say that should do it, however. I fully respect that it would mean more work and Larian have their own list of priorities. All I’m saying is that in principle they could if they want to, and I don’t think that lacking details on exactly what your character did in the past needs to be an obstacle.

I don´t see what´s the problem with the implementation of background dialogues. I do not even ask for entire side missions based on your characters` history and met characters of your past like in Mass effect or quest-solving options like in Tyranny (even tho that would be awesome) but a bit of reactivity of the world would be nice. No character appears from nowhere, they lived in the world prior the beginning of the story.


In other games like PoE2 and Dos2 you have exactly the same mechanics, a tag that tells something about your background and you have a few dialogues that address you as such when they talk to you. And every playable character has one. They´re very vage (Noble, criminal, sage, etc) so a subtle reference to that gives reason for a reply, things like "I know about your past stranger, we want no troublemakers here" (for criminals) "We heard good things about you" (Folk hero) "I need someone with your expertise for this work" (sage) "I know someone like you would understand the importance of keeping your tools in good shape" (Artisan merchant) "You really like to make a good old flashy entrance, do you?" (Entertainer)
I can come up with those all day, and I´m not a professional writer.

I fail to see how including those dialogue lines could give more problems than comments about your race or class.


There are features that specifically state that you know a criminal contracts, or that a guild, the peasant folk or a church would help you. Heck, the noble knight would give you a retainer to help you ( I do not think that´s going to be in the game) so I assume that would be in the game at least.

Yeah feels like Larian devs are deliberately keeping the custom PC characters not as equally fleshed out as their origin characters because they want to push players to use their origin characters by default. They know that not including the option of a custom PC won't be well received at all, so that option has been included, but they are doing what they can to channel players towards picking origin characters over custom characters.