Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Oct 2020
Muldeh Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
The problem with disengage being a bonus action

Aside from the generic "it does something that should be unique to rogues" argument, which is valid, I have noticed that it means opportunity attacks from enemies are almost non existent.

9 out of 10 times if I take an opportunity attack, it isn't because I felt that I was in a situation where I needed to risk moving without disengaging in order to do something more effective with my bonus action, but rather, I simply wasn't able to see the red arrow due to my poor eyesight - this could be made clearer. Or because I didn't realise that my character had to move first in order to make the jump that I told him/her to make - this could be fixed by seperating jump from the disengage action.

Assuming you made both of those fixes above, then keeping disengage as a bonus action would mean that opportunity attacks would very rarely happen, to the point where I would question their existence i nthe game at all. But they do need to be i nthe game don't they?

Well I thought about this, and the reason we have opportunity attacks in regular DnD, is to give melee characters some way to disincentivise ranged characters to kite them. In tabletop if you get into melee range of an enemy ranger, they have a few options. They can either:
- Disengage using their action, run away from you, and NOT get an attack.
- Switch to a melee weapon.
- Take an attack on your with their ranged weapon, but at disadvantage.

That last one is the threatened condition - which has also been noticably useless in BG3. Due to bonus action disengage my ranged characters are ALWAYS able to avoid the threatened condition with no penalty. Normally a wizard would have to use something like misty step in order to disengage like this, which costs a level 2 spell slot.. a hefty price, but it just goes to show how valuable this ability can be for a squishy ranged character.


The problem with shove being a bonus action:

Right now I see people - streamers, other commenters, reviewers saying they use shove just because they can, and it feels weird. It feels weird when your 8 strength wizard shoves someone off a cliff. Thematically thats not wizards are built for.. but because it's D&D, it has a chance of success. Also it feels weird to be using shove so often, even when it has no real tactical benefit.

5e rules handle shoving perfectly in my opinion. Your wizard can still shove, and still has a chance of success the same as here, BUT it costs her an action to do it, an action she would almsot certainly be better using to cast a spell. MEanwhile a martial class suc has a fighter, can shove with much more success.. a barbarian raging even has advantage on shoves.. and additonlly these classes at leve l5 gain extra attack, in which case they can shove AND attack in the same turn if they so wish, meaning it essentially costs them HALF an action. So the classes that thematically should be shoving, have much more of an incentive to do it than those that shouldn't.

Shove is also very powerful in this game due to the amount of verticality. I would love if this were toned down somewhat and shove being given the ability to make people prone if you wish. But I think that it is much much more important that it goes back to being an alternate attack action, as opposed to a bonus action.


About bonus actions in general:

One of the most common arguments I see of having the above abilities and others be bonus actions rather than actions as they are in tabletop, is that everyone should have options for things to do with their bonus actions. I disagree.

The lack of generic abilities that use the bonus action is part of DnDs design. How you use your bonus action is a huge part of what seperates different builds from each other. IT's not meant ot be just "second action" or "swift action".. it's soemthing special you get from a feat, a spell, a class feature. An there are so many in tabletop that every character has access to several of them by level 4.

The worry is that it feels bad to not be able to use a resource that you've got - your bonus action. But it is worse to just use an action that doesn't make sense - e.g. shove as a spellcaster. And the fact that it feels bad will encourage people to think about their builds action economy. - side note its a shame that currently there can be no planning builds without using a wiki or something.


Hide as a bonus action I will reserve judgement on for now, since stealth works quite a bit differently in this game to tabletop. The AI definitely needs fixing so that it doesn't just stand around doing nothign when you're hidden, they should go and search around your last known location, and/or fan out to look for you.

Drinking potions as a bonus action isa common house rule, and I think it's fine.

Joined: Aug 2014
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
If Larian wants to make a playstyle that's active and carefree that doesn't punish you for mistakes that aren't painfully obvious like walking into fire, that should be an "easy" difficulty setting. Call it "adventurer" mode so it doesn't have any negative connotations. Jump around without AoOs, have more bonus actions and stuff.

I've never played 5e but now after playing 30 something hours of BG3, I looked it up and really want to play BG3 with hardcore 5e rules. Where everything that was overpowered for BG3 is in its original state.

Last edited by 1varangian; 12/10/20 12:52 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
E
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
E
Joined: Oct 2020
Although I agree to some extent, I do feel like the game should take a different approach to 5e in some regards.

Shove as a bonus action will be less impactful at later levels. Sure, at level 4 a wizard with 8 strength can shove a goblin off a cliff, but at level 10 I doubt he will be able to do that with creatures that the party will be facing. Plus, I think it is fair to let verticality shine in this game - whenever I play 5e most of our combat encounters take place on a flat surface with some cliffs at best. This is because it is hard to both to draw understandable maps and to imagine spaces with 3 dimensions in mind.

The disengage/jump as a bonus action - I do feel like it is very powerful. On the other hand though, if I didn't have access to it I wouldn't ever start combat encounters by chatting to the enemy - which is an integral part of the game.

Joined: Oct 2020
P
member
Offline
member
P
Joined: Oct 2020
Originally Posted by 1varangian
If Larian wants to make a playstyle that's active and carefree that doesn't punish you for mistakes that aren't painfully obvious like walking into fire, that should be an "easy" difficulty setting. Call it "adventurer" mode so it doesn't have any negative connotations. Jump around without AoOs, have more bonus actions and stuff.


I don't mind if it burns you (heh) for literally intentionally walking into fire. When it pathfinds your companions into fire for no reason at all, that's just annoying.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5