Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Shove, Shield Master & Shield Bash

Currently in game, the ability "Shove" is a bonus action that any character class can use. In its current form it is incredibly powerful. I am pushing mobs off cliffs and buildings like mana from heaven. Besides the longer corpse loot recovery or the occasional lost loot to the great abyss, I find myself relying heavily on this skill. It appears to be tied to strength as far as how far you push the mob. DND 5e has it set to 5' max which would be about a single characters distance. Last night I shoved an Ogre 4 character lengths away onto his duff. Throw in a ice cantrip and its pretty much locked down. In most cases the Shove ability as a bonus action, strategically outshines a lot of class abilities or spells. It would seem that putting the "Shove" ability as an action rather than a bonus action is in order for game balance.

In the same respect you have the Shield Master Feat, but have removed the DND 5e "Shield Bash" function from it; which mechanically is the same skill as "Shove", so I am perplexed as to the thought process. Per DND 5e rules, Shield Master feat, if you use your attack action it allows the shield bash skill as a bonus action. So why remove it? Having Shield Bash as a bonus action creates more insensitive to choose the Shield Master Feat.

It seems that if you revert the Shove ability back to an action where it belongs, add the Shove mechanic to the Shield Bash function of Shield Master feat. Have Shield Bash requires a shield, require that the attack action was taken, slap on a shield bash sound and you are off to the races. As an avid DND player the difference between a two handed Paladin and sword and board counter part is the trade off of less damage for more utility with Shield Bash. When you get to the Paladin class it will most likely come up in your brainstorming sessions as it relates to balance and character creation.

Great game guys. I can tell you, what you have so far is knocking off my socks it has so much potential that I eagerly await each update. Keep up the long nights with Hotpockets and Red Bull.

Repost form the other identical thread in "General":

I have few very concise opinions about the "shove" option:

- it should be an action, especially if its stays as suspiciously reliable as it is now.
- to "compensate" it should do more damage than it does from certain heights.
- it should look a bit less cartoony and ridiculous. When I push someone from a cliff I expect to see the poor bastard fall down almost entirely in a vertical trajectory, not in an ample, pronounced parabolic arc.
- As corollary of the previous point, the animation should suggest the sense of "heavy body falling to the ground with a bit more... gravitas (how's that for a double entendre, uh?), not look like a sketch of Wil E. Coyote floating mid air.

Agree with your post except this one. Already 1-hit kill alot with shove, it doesent need more damage tbh...

I've seen several "shoves" ending up dealing less damage than a standard weapon attack. If I'm using my action to do something with a lower chance to hit than attacking (as shoving tend to have compared to a weapon swing) I'd expect a better payoff if things work in my favor.
Throwing things in bottomless pits doesn't count. Especially since in that case you are trading off your "ease to kill" with losing the loot that unit is carrying...
Not to mention bottomless pits are pretty damn rare anyway, and they would be even more so if "shoving" would lose its ridiculous current range (once again I'm referring to bodies flying meters away).

Shoving people off sizable cliffs, let's say ladder height, only tends to deal like 5 damage at most, and they just get up, hardly having lost movement. That's crazy good for a bonus action, but for an action not amazing. It needs to feel rewarding to sacrifice attack and take these opportunities, but not be able to shove everyone with anyone and have them fly like a rocket

Sure, it might only do 5 damage. But you're also getting the enemy away from you and your squishies. Realistically, they should also land prone. This would remove half of their movement, preventing them from simply climbing back up the ladder and attacking you on their turn. Spending an action to (deal a small amount of damage and) prevent an enemy from attacking me next turn seems like a fair trade to me.

Shield Master improvement brainstorm:

1. Shield Bash -
A. Shove knocks target prone regardless of height fallen
B. Shield Master has advantage on shoving creatures equal to or less than your size
C. Shove deals 1d4+STR on hit
D. Targets shoved by Shield Master have disadvantage on attack rolls on their next turn
E. Shield Master can shove 2 targets standing close to each other(similar to Horde Breaker)
F. Open to suggestions

2. Defensive Boons -
A. Shield Master has advantage against shove or grapple checks made against them.
B. As a reaction, Shield Master can double the AC of their shield against an attack.
C. Gain the deflect missle Monk feat, without the throwback
D. Improved Protection - When you grant the Protection fighting style defense to allies, the effect persists until the beginning of your next turn.
E. Open to suggestions

3. Once(or charges) per Short/Long Rest ability
A. Shield Charge - Run up to your movement speed in a line, knocking creatures out your path. Roll athletics v athletics/acrobatics against all creatures struck to knock back/prone
B. Open to suggestions

Here's a few ideas I came up with to help compensate Shield Master in case shove stays as a bonus action.

Yes, exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

I mean it can work similarly in normal 5e, shoving an enemy off a 50 foot drop can still result in 5 damage, unlikley, but it can.

Here is the official 5e rules for fall damage if your curious.



I haven't noticed anyone falling prone from falling. Likewise I haven't noticed anyone rolling to not taking damage. So im not sure exactly how they are working out the damage in bg3.

I'd just wait for the mod that removes it entirely, there are also various spells and skills that push people already. The true advantage of throwing people off cliffs is height advantage anyway.

Currently in BG3, characters who take fall damage go through the animation of landing prone, but then just immediately get back up. I assume this is a bug/oversight and Larian will fix this, since they already have coded going prone after a fall.

I don't think falling characters are automatically allowed to "roll to not take damage." The line about avoiding taking damage likely is accounting for feather fall, reducing damage to 0 via feats, etc

This is just another example of breaking action economy, resulting certain feat to be weaker than original design.

Which makes one question if Larian knows or understands the 5th ed ruleset at all. I mean it certainly doesn't look like it to me.

I've been watching streams, videos, reading tons and trying a bit myself - if the current course they're taking prevails I will certainly be a lost customer.

@ChickeninSpace

I mentioned this originally because I felt that sticking to the rules in this case would make sense long term for Game Class balance, dynamic character building and not least of all because the Feat for Shield Master as it is and Shove as it is in 5e has been game tested for balance already.

As someone who works in the High tech field for Software development I know things don't always translate to a virtual environment, so it is probably best to temper these requests with some kind of notion that not all things will mirror 5e exactly. In this case, based on my limited view behind the game it seemed to be an easy fix. I am sure a software Developer somewhere just lost his wings.