Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback [suggestion - improve combat mechanics] - New bonus action + (bonus) action rework

Hi everybody,

This is a part of my thoughts after I played the game a lot.

Actually the bonuses actions are really powerfull and not really a part of "usual" D&D mechanics.
They also visualy decrease the feeling you're in the reality of the FR.


EXEMPLES / FEEDBACK

* Jumping in combats (disengage for ennemies) is really powerfull.
=> AOO are useless
=> It's too easy to backstab
=> The rogue is powerfull but everyone can backstab as much as him
=> Jumping allow you to reach ennemies you wouldn't be able to reach if you just walk.

* Dipping is really powerfull, easy and strange because it's not really how things work in D&D and in the FR.
* The role of melee characters, especially warrior is decreased when it comes to hold enemies or preventing them from advancing/retracting. They often have to walk / cheese jump a lot during combats.
* The synergy between companions actually doesn't really exists or are very limited.

Jumping and dipping (as surfaces - for another thread) are not really tactical choices. Actually this is how the game work and these actions are really usual because it's so easy and without any consequences.

There are many gameplay mechanics that have Bad consequences on the general balance, on tactical aspect of the game and that decrease the feeling of D&D / FR / BG.

The goal of this suggestion is to increase to tactical value of the game, to increase the FR feeling, to increase the D&D feeling, to increase the BG feeling and to increase the balance of the game.

SUGGESTION OF MODIFICATIONS

* Disengage become a specific action for everyone and become a bonus action for specific classes (i.e cunning rogue level 2)
* Jumping while engaged is not possible anymore
* Jumping correctly reduce the movements (if you can jump more than move, you don't have movement left after you jump).
* Hide is an action except for specific classes (i.e cunning rogue lvl 2)
* Dipping is an action and only possible if you have specific component in your inventory
* Help became a bonus action for specific classes (i.e cunning rogue level 2)
* Help consume a scroll / healing potion and give a few HP to the ally (this could avoid a little bit the endless loop help/unconscious/help/unconscious/...)

SUGGESTION OF NEW BONUS ACTIONS

* Prone is a new bonus action available if you're engaged in melee (shove is still a bonus action)
==> Dexterity check VS ennemy AC
==> Beautifull and immersive combat animation
===> Success : The ennemy fall on the ground for 1 turn. He loose his bonus action on the next turn to get back on his feet. While on the ground, everyone has a +2 bonus to attack roll. (edit1)
===> Success : The ennemy fall on the ground for 1 turn. He lose half his speed to stand up and can't attack until he's not on his feet. Melee attack roll against the creature has advantage while range attack roll against it has disadvantage.
===> Failure : You suffer -1 AC for the next attack against you


* "flip side with opponent" is a new bonus action to use when you're engaged - use your bonus action to move behind your opponent (related to the backstab mechanic)
==> Dexterity check VS ennemy AC (proficiency bonuses for specific classes. I.E cunning rogue lvl 2)
==> Beautifull and immersive combat animation
===> Success : you are behind the opponent. You have the backstab bonus.
===> Failure : Malus to your next action.

Any comments on that ? Any other suggestion ?
I'll probably modify and/or edit the thread after we discussed about it because my goal is, as yours, to create the best possible BG3 experience


POST SCRIPTUM

Keep in mind that I don't know every D&D mechanics. Sometimes I wrote that something ask a "dexterity check" but maybe another roll is more accurate. Sometimes I wrote "+2 to attack roll", but maybe it's not the best solution to balance the game.
Keep also in mind that this is a suggestion list, I'm not saying this is perfect. i'm trying to think about everything but this list and suggestion of mechanics can be improved with the help of the community.

1. Yes disengage should be a full action
2. No, it should be possible, BUT the engaged enemies get AOOs
3. Makes sense
4. Yes
5. Yes (also the mechanic is encroaching on certain Spell, so having at least components should be a restriction)
6. Yes



FYI this is something the shove Action does per 5e rules. Just separate them into Shove (away) and Shove (prone) as full actions and we're good. To quote the rules:



Being prone is also a condition with a set of rules:



Also you don't lose your bonus action to stand up again, you use half your speed that turn. Btw it would be great to become prone on purpose, as it makes you a harder target for ranged attackers.



I'd look to implement this for just a few (subclasses), if they lose something else that cannot be ported into the video game. There are already class skills that give you advantage for a cost (e.g. Barbarians recklessness)

Any comments on that ? Any other suggestion ?
I'll probably modify and/or edit the thread after we discussed about it because my goal is, as yours, to create the best possible BG3 experience



No problem, thats why I gave you the the quotes from the rules. Your ideas are good I think, because you intuitively went where RAW 5e is already. A better implementation will do very much for this game.

Thanks for your answer and the informations.

Can you tell me why you think jumping when engaged is something that should stay in the game as a bonus action ? What is the purpose of it ?
Actually, I guess this is used :
1) to disengage - which is another action according to the suggestion
2) to backstab - which is why I suggest "flip side with opponent" as a "close combat technique" for everyone (or every melee classes)

About this suggestion, are you waiting from Larian that they completely remove that backstab bonus ?
Not sure I really understand your point of view about that because i don't really think it doesn't match/work with skills "like Barbarians recklessness".

About Prone and the rules : I edit the thread like this :
===> Success : The ennemy fall on the ground for 1 turn. He lose half his speed to stand up and can't use any action until he's not on his feet. Melee attack roll against the creature has advantage while range attack roll against it has disadvantage.

Not really sure that a prone creature should be able to attack in the video game. I guess it should be really complicated to introduce.
About "prone on purpose" I don't really know either because what happen if you're engaged / attacked ? Rules like in D&D ? Can you crawl or not ? Can you use a reaction to stand up if you have movement and if you're engaged during the ennemy's turn ? If you agree, I'll let the question open at the moment.

Dexterity checks in combat could be actually Athletics or Acrobatics checks. And some classes or feats could give you an advantage for that check. This would create an interesting space for optimalizations.

Also when we have Jump and Shove I actually miss the opportunity to make Jump and Shove together. It would be such a natural maneuver. It is not possible now because both commands use bonus action. But in RAW DnD both are actually full action which is also not ideal. I am inclined to keep Jump as Bonus action, make Shove a full Action and make Disengange a separate Action or Bonus Action depending on class or feat.

Jump should just be a move action I think. I like the way it's done by the D&D 5e rebalance mod, so I may be biased

Good stuff!!

I generally agree with all these points.

The modifications are good, not so sure about the new bonus actions. Maybe some generic very minor bonus action combat moves would be fine.

Bonus Action: Feint? Sleight of Hand Check vs Perception check to gain Advantage on your next attack.

Bonus Action: Reckless? +2 attack, -4 AC.

Bonus Action: Defensive? +2 AC, -4 attack

But also, the magical heal from "Help" needs to go away. The situation where an enemy just repeatedly knocks someone out and you "help" them back up in an endless loop is ridiculous. That's what healing potions and healing spells are for. Having to use one of those needs to be a requirement to bring a downed character back in the fight.

Shoving something prone needs to simply be a variation of the Shove we already have. Except it needs to be an attack action.

I really like the idea.
I think that "Prone" could really be related to Athletics (Strengh) while "Flip Side" could be related to Acrobatics (Dext).

That would lead to more tactical possibilities especially for melee characters. Actually the main feature they all use in the game is "jump/disengage" and it's annoying/limited as well as being visually ridiculous.

With such bonus action they'll have more possibilities when they're engaged :
- Accept the AOOs and move to use their action + bonus action
- Use the bonus action Prone, trying to have a bonus (to be determined) using their strenght but with the risk of having a malus (to be determined) and use their action
- Use the bonus action Flip Side, trying to have a bonus (to be determined) using their dexterity but with the risk of having a malus (to be determined) and use their action
- Use their action in their actual position and any other bonus action (potion, feature,...)

I really think it could be way more tactical and enjoyable to play a melee character without this feeling that you're cheesing.




About such bonuses I'm not sure because it's an open door to everything like "stances" for everyone. I think that D&D manage such sort of stance pretty well.

According to me the problem with combat is the power of a few action/bonus action. The game is completely balanced arround those few actions so it's tactical value became very limited.
Actually the game has absolutely no consequences if you use them and that's a part of their power.

I'm not sure the game should add tons of new action/bonus action but we have to find a good balance and a good alternative to the jump.

We also have to keep the backstab bonus in mind because that's totally related. I think I wouldn't be against it if it was part of something that could have real consequences.

About "Help", I agree that it looks sometimes really ridiculous. You're right I'll write in the first post that we should be able to use it but only with a scroll or healing potion. I like that suggestion.

So, nothing else to say community ?

Welp, I basically like it as it is, for the most part.

Good idea... Positions are missing from the game. It is great to have more tacticals options.

I agree to the OP.

In german TV one guy said (not 100% serious ;-)) : " Not saying anything is the highest possible form of agreement."
If people do not like something they will complain about it all day long,especially online.

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
You're making problem out of nothing. We are supposed to reach enemies one way or another. Jumping or ranged attacks, we gonna kill them or die trying anyway.
As result:

Yes.
No.
Yes.


I'm not getting how exactly dipping goes against D&D and FR feeling. FR is a setting with physics working quite close to ours, so if there is some liquid or physical effect that can be brought from one thing to another, it works for FR. D&D is a table-top system that has a lot of "leave it to your imagination and allow your DM to judje" moments, exactly because it's easier to say that, than write down how each single law of physics works. So as for me dipping should be judged from physics perspective.
Yes. But fixing jump fixes this as well.
Never saw too much real synergy on low-levels. What I'm seeing now is normal, if they fix Jump/Disengage, Help and add Administer potion should be perfect.


Yes.
No for action and maybe in certain cases for components. Oil should be needed to get your weapon on fire, but I'm not seeing why I would need anything else to get it covered with poison or acid from the ground. And it's very small thing to make it full action instead of bonus. Don't forget that something being action or bonus action measures if we can do it by the way or we need to pay special attention.
No. It's not so in D&D and rogues gonna be powerful enough with all their proper perks from D&D and without it.
Yes, but better as separate action.


To be honest I'm not seeing any reason for adding any new original actions, if Larian will fix some actions and mechanics they already have and add some which they are missing at the moment. In overall I posted in my thread all I'm seeing as should be fixed or added before we ask for more.
Just some notes in case:

Leaving prone state costs movement in D&D, not bonus action. And it's better for that synergy you were talking about. You can use it to slow down enemies movement towards your mage by your fighter.
Also that action should use dexterety or strenth check against dexterity or strenth of the enemy.


This one is simply useless or goes against what you stated as your goals. You can walk behind your enemy already. If there are obstacles, which do not allow you to do it, you can't be able to do it in any way with realistic physics. Because it implies that in case of success our character somehow sneaks between the legs of the enemy without being noticed and as result being allowed to backstab him.

PS:: By the way here is quite useful table if you want to check on all typical actions in D&D 5E
https://crobi.github.io/dnd5e-quickref/preview/quickref.html