Larian Studios Forums General Chat Thinly veiled political statement in BD?

idd my view is that the strong should protect the weak. But somethimes i believe this is put to the test.

dilemma:

lung transplant for lung cancer. 1 lung availible. One will stop smoking one never smoked and one will continue to smoke. Who gets the lung. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

Morbo:I believe in that case assesments have to be made on tissue compatability, patient survivability and chances of overall operation failure/success.
The Hipocratic oath that all doctors take prevents them from doing anything else. Especially making decisions based on morals.

Kiya: exactly what I wanted to say if I could type faster. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

@kiya : <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Excellent post, Kiya. And since I'm too close to this issue, you said the words I wanted to, but couldn't. It's a slippery slope we venture down once we think we can choose who is worthy of medical treatment and who isn't. However, people do not receive some kinds of treatment because of their own neglect. I knew a guy who had a liver transplant. He contracted Hepatitis C and later cerosis of the liver from drug and alcohol abuse. He continued to abuse alcohol and drugs even after his transplant. I had a hard time dealing with that because I felt his drug and alcohol abuse was morally wrong. Yet, who am I to judge how this guy should live his life? His new liver soon became diseased and surprisingly enough the transplant program would not put him on the receiver's list until there was proof positive that he was both drug and alcohol free. One year later he died because he refused to give up his favorite pasttimes. So, when it comes to transplant organs, they (the organization) are very careful about who they treat. And, I don't know how I feel about this.


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

Kinda disturbing story there Faralas.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />

I guess when you get a transplant organ the medical authorities can mess with you a bit. Maybe the doctor was making his decision on the probability of the next operation being a success? Liver transplants don't have much of a survival rate at any rate. They seem to be rather difficult.
I don't know how I feel about this too really. The ethics surrounding that case are very complex. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Using/killing animals can only done in 2 cases:

SURVIVAL
and when controlled as foodsource.

Don't take any more animal life than you would if we weren't urban, if we didn't take medication.

Fur coats, testing, ivory. SAY NO!

New medication? testing it on animals implies that you aren't sure of your abilities to create safe medication. The nature has a cure for everything, acapuncture does work.

Ach, Faralas, my very best and dearest friend is 32 yrs old, had 200 (!) operations - had been 3x in month-long coma - had been given up by the docs - she is still alive!

You can't imagine the humilities she went through since I know her. I have lost faith in the oath of Hippocrates and I have lost faith in the German social system. She had Decubitus (open wounds) from lying too long. She was denied a water bed to ease her pain - she has allergies, so she needs microfaser underwear => she was only allowed to buy 2 bras a yer. I couldn't stand that anymore, I paid everything. You know why? She loves life! She doesn't cling to it, but everytime I see her - I see the symbol of life. She laughs, she loves and she is so courageous. So, if anyone would dare to say => she's too expensive for our social/med society, I'd freak out - as I have already done towards some people.
Kiya

There is only one thing important for me => if a creature decides to live and wishes to live => it has every damn right to live. And every damn right to get support! If a creature decides to die and has no wish to live any longer => I respect this. I can only do this for my cats atm - but she and I talked often about death - and I gave her my promise to help her, in the direction SHE wishes.

What good is a long life if you don't live it? I support his want to live to the fullest, but I see the point about who to give the liver to. If it was obvious that all he was going to do was abuse this liver as well, I would be inclined to say give it to someone who'll put it to better use.

Actually, if I was him, I probably would have declined the liver knowing my time was up... and spent well.

Ach, Faralas, my very best and dearest friend is 32 yrs old, had 200 (!) operations - had been 3x in month-long coma - had been given up by the docs - she is still alive!
----

Is she still in the comma? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> 200 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />


@Morbo [don't die to soon] or maybe you have a good life and a good afterlife. or jsut float around as dead atoms. or be recincarnated. or have a good afterlife in heavan floating around as atoms that have been reincarned.

i'm sorry to hear about your dearest friend, kiya. no way can i ever imagine how it feels like to see your favourite person in such state. & yet she gives u the kind of hope & radiance u never thought would come from a bed-ridden person. i would love such person dearly as well.

u're an angel, kiya. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

& as for that issue where the guy who would abuse his new organ(s), well the best we can do is advise him but not deny him treatment when he needs it. we're humans, not God so better not play mixed roles in things like these.

& as for morbo's don't-die-too-soon ideal, well better have a happy than a long life. what's the point of having prolonged life only to suffer & linger on in pain & what-not? i've seen many relatives who are like that; rags to riches & for retirement life, all the money instead of enjoying it with travels, holidays, etc, they get to spend the money on cancer treatments & such. just to prolong life. do they get to enjoy it fully? i don't know. either they can't eat this or that, or they can't do certain activities that they love, etc .... .

well maybe i'm just too young at 29. i have not taken enough salt to know life at that stage. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

No, my friend is still alive, Lews - she knows, she just has a restricted life span - but she enjoys life, as much as she can - in fact, she got married last year (in spite of 3 further operations during that time) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> and is now dreaming to create a garden. I admire her strength and courage very much.
Kiya

she had 3x coma, each lasting one month - some of her brain cells are damaged due to this - but I never saw a person more alive then she is. My friendship with her taught me a lot about life, put my head really straight, when I was unsatisfied with some stuff. I will miss her terribly when she's gone - but I am very thankful for knowing her.

I'm no Christian by belief - but I recall Martin Luther (reformator and founder of the Protestants) once said: "And if the world will go down tomorrow, I'll still plant an apple tree". I think, this is what she lives - day by day.

Janggut, Kiya: Life should be lived day to day. You never know what's round the corner. As we used to say back in england. 'face it, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. Go on! Have a fag!' (last bit was added by me... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />)

Breaking my leg a few years ago and lying in hospital for 2 weeks was a big wake-up call to me. Life is very precious and should be enjoyed at every opportunity. Hey, my kids ain't getting any more than they need to get on in life! (college fund) We're going to party with the rest of it! (well I am, have to ask the wife what she wants to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />)

No, my friend is still alive, Lews - she knows, she just has a restricted life span - but she enjoys life, as much as she can - in fact, she got married last year (in spite of 3 further operations during that time) and is now dreaming to create a garden. I admire her strength and courage very much.
Kiya
)

I'm very glad to hear that. She sounds like a very admirable (?) person to know. and Very brave and happy.


And as Martin Luther said, "Blood alone moves the wheels of history." "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. "

Ahw, can't help myself...

This is all just ridiculous. We are kings of the world, we are the crown of evolution. We kill animals and we eat meat AND we like it. We are no diffrent than other animals except that we are at the top of the food chain, any animal would had done the same as we do, infact whenever they can they do. Animals do kill other animals, animals do eat meat, animals would extinguish other animal species if they could. And yet again in fact they have.

It is us thinking that we are more than animals, that we are not animals, that we have "higher" morale that is a true delusion. Avoiding our own natural calls and needs for a higher morale that is not supported by nature. All this while stating that we are closer to nature. A contradiction truly astonishing.

We do not kill innocent mice. There is no such thing. The mice that are killed are bred for the sole reason of being killed in tests. They would not be alive if we did not need them for the tests. Who is god here?


Have I upset any feelings yet? I hope so. We humans tend to sometimes take ourselves way too serious and not put things in perspective. Thinking more of ourselves than we are. Hopefully this post will be a slap back to the reality we do live in.

/Illuminatis

P.S. This is not saying that we should go about killing or destroying every living being we encounter, just that we should keep things in perspective. D.S.

Edit: Removed all those spelling errors...

Whoa! Somebody yanked us back to the topic!

Hey Illuminatis! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> I agree partially with what you say but humans have evolved (well some of us) to higher thought. What I mean is we have logic, reasoning, compassion and self-awareness bubbling above our animal instincts. We are responsible for this planet and all who live on it. Like it or not, its our job and the excuse 'well we are just animals too' is not good enough. Especially if we exterminate ourselves through our own stupidity.

The use of animals for experimantation is a cruel but neccessary occurance. We also have to live with it. I can. I see the good it does all the time. Responsibility for your actions and the consequences thereof is part of being human. We should take ourselves very seriously, we need to keep our actions in check. Why? Because no-one else will do it.

You can't just run rampant around the planet saying 'I'm just following my insticts man!' That's frickin' retarded.

In the words of the Manic Street Preachers:

Who's responsible? You f*cking are.

Peace. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Amen and pass the steak! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Each and every one of us has benefitted one way or another from animal testing. Animals, like nature, do not have ethical or moral boundries. Mankind is the only 'animal' who has the capacity to judge, make decisions and have the ability to reason. And it is because we have this ability or 'gift' it should be exercised. If we simply gave in to our primal needs without using our 'gifts' we would never have evolved. See, nature is neither inherently good or evil. It simply is. It's man's ability to reason that gave birth to the concepts of good and evil. (Read your philosophers. This isn't a new idea).

So, animal testing is here probably to stay for quite some time to come. Or unless we can devise a virtual laboratory where the only thing we kill is bandwidth. Then again, someone would protest against that, too and call it 'abuse'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

@Womble: Yep, it certainly is a disturbing story and it raises many feelings for me when I think about Frank (that's the guy's name who passed away last year).

@Kiya: While I can't say that I know exactly how your friend feels, last September I completed surgery #52 (in the past 12 years). Pain, medical bills, insurance battles and disease are the biggest part of my life. Which is probably why I like playing [and reading] fantasy RPGs so much. They are a welcomed distraction from my reality.

You're a good friend, Kiya. She's lucky to have met you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And just hearing her story gives me strength and confidence to accept my lot in life (well, for the time being. LOL I still become overwhelmed at times.)


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

I disagree - there where animals were "extinguished", it occured due to inhumankind meddling with natural balance. Ecological catastrophies due to the "crown" playing god.


We have the choice for a morale - we have the choice to control instincts - we have a choice to use our brains and think beyond our nosetip.

Sure, may not be fun, not be satisfactory, maybe unpleasant, boring etc. - but the only difference between animals and the homo is our developed brain. Wish, some would use them.


I disagree again - if it doesn't taint your instincts, try reading about social/instinct/natural behaviour amonst mammals. Overpopulation amongst rats e.g. => infertility. Where's the "natural call" in homos? Ever read about strong protective behaviour? How familiar are you with ethology? If you were - I doubt you could consider the human race superior to ants. Why? Because their social system is far more advanced than ours.

I believe, we do not have much "nature" left in us - but we have reasoning, thoughts and we can (if we wish) differentiate, abstract and evaluate the consequences of our deeds. I, on my behalf, prefer this to gut "instincts".
I do not believe, we are the "crown", some may. I just think, we're a very young species and it is in our hands to develop or extinguish as the dinosaurs did, unable to adjust.
The key for this? Again the brain => (self)responsibility, as Womble already stated and I would add discipline, social thinking and self-criticism, observation, regarding consequences.
Kiya

I'm just dabbing around with a thought concept ... could it be that we atre already degenerated ? We try to replace nature by technology, feelings/emotion by the Ratio (logical, rational thinking), we try to build buildings and industry instead of taking care of our nature ... we try to chance plants and animals in a way so that they can act as our food ...

I was thinking about that becausepeople are using lawnmovers (right spelled ?) to keep the grass short, they are cutting bushes and plants they are putting in their gardens to look "nice", and when they don't like 'em, they just throw them away.

Could it be that this "gardening" was once good, because it was used to protect ourselves, but has turned into a "war against nature" by technology-driven humans which are only considering plants and animals in terms of food and money ?

I'm just wondering ...

the other day some people I saw were all obsessed with this High Tech car, even though it was just totaly destroying the enviorment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> lots of cars these days do that.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> I got back at them though by informing them they were kicking graves on accident.