Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Rewriting the Grove to be more groovy

Since the Druid grove is the center piece for the first act and it is really badly done i think its worth to consider rewriting it.

Not entirely by changing it into something different of course, but in a way that would make the available content better. The moral alignments of the old games and previous DnD versions basically dont exist anymore and shouldn't even be considered in writing and designing any quest in the game.

The problems with the current version is that it is constrained, limited, forced into simplistic take on the issues more connected to our real world then Faerun but done so badly it completely fails to create anything interesting to play through or anything actually relevant to any current issue in our world. Because its twisted into a forced simplification of "refugees good - anyone who dislike them bad" without any consideration of the third force attacking everyone and specifics of the setting and lore about any of these sides. It makes as much sense as if anyone blamed the Syrian refugees for isil terror attacks and refused to ever consider isil in any way. No, thats not what happened in our reality at all.


The current setup and situation in the grove is:

- A third unnknown mysterious force is increasing attacks on the grove and everything around it. They attack the Druids, small settlements in the region, the Vaukeens rest inn, the Toll collectors inn and practically everyone else - (that are not True Souls or belong to the cult of the Absolute).

- Refugees from Elturel find themselves attacked too and barely escape with their lives. Out of desperation and necessity they seek refuge in semi secretive Druid grove.

- The Archdruid boss of the grove joins a group of adventurers and leaves to seek the source of the attacks by himself, and keeps all his info about the third force a secret from everyone else except Nettie. For some reason. (no reason at all - it does not make any sense at all he would hide any of that from all other Druids in his own grove)

- The remaining Druids start to blame the refugees for the attacks - although it doesn't make any sense and they have no info to base that assumption on. They dont want to consider anything else, dont want to investigate the third force at all, cant seem to even think about anything else and the player cant even bring that up in any dialogue in any way.

- The refugees have no intention of staying in the Grove but cant leave at the moment because they will be killed by the third force if they leave. (because they are not fighters... although they have several fighters and mages in the group)

- The Druids want them gone regardless of consequences in order to start a ritual which will encase the grove into magical thorns and so protect them... from attacks ... which they blame on the refugees...
Although if refugees leave... since its the refugees that are causing the attacks... the attacks will stop... why would they need the ritual then?

- The fact that the refugees are all Tieflings - basically devils - is barely mentioned. Its never mentioned as an issue by itself. The only issues that are mentioned as reason for trying to expel them is that "they are foreigners!" and that the grove is being attacked because of them. But as the players learn themselves the attacks started before refugees came along, and will not stop after they are gone. Yet nobody else of the druids care about that at all or wants to find out more.

- The fact that the grove maybe wont have enough food to maintain larger population is never mentioned as the reason why they want to expel the refugees before sealing the grove.
There is a storehouse where you can find a list of food supplies and reserves saying the reserves are almost gone but lets say due to the location not being fully implemented that issue is never mentioned by anyone. >Even if it was, its difficult to imagine Druids would have such problems with food - especially considering there is a river flowing right next to the grove. Additionally, im pretty fing sure that in such extreme circumstances Druids with all their knowhow of the nature and wildlife and related magic skills could in fact cooperate and help refugees to grow food enough to sustain them for a while - at the very least.

- Another issue is that the ritual of Thorns is presented as a definite sure shot solution but all it really means is that the Druids will close themselves off from the world. The duration of this separation is never mentioned, considered or allowed for discussion. At all. Even if doing that will allow for the complete destruction of the whole area which will be taken over by that third force which will then be free to create an indefinite siege of the grove. We are not allowed to point this out to anyone either. Not a single Druid is able to stop, think about for two seconds and say "Umm... how long is that going to last? And, err, are we sure the attacks will stop after we expel the refugees... wait a minute, why do we think refugees are the cause of attacks?" And of course, closing off the grove means that the Druids just cowardly abandoned their sacred duty to all of the nature and every living being in the area.

- Why, if refugees leaving will stop the attacks? If it wont stop the attacks then... why would you expel so many innocent people to die and then close yourself off - or how long?

- What exactly makes everyone so sure the magical Thorns will protect them from everything? How can anyone be sure - when they refuse to even consider the third force let alone investigate it in any way? The player discovers at least one cave tunnel leading directly into the inner sanctum of the grove from the outside. You find a wounded Druid in it, and if you manage to rescue him he just says he needs to tell others and runs off - never to be seen or heard from again. We are not allowed to mention this to anyone in any way.


And then we get to the... trial.

Jesus, this is already taking too much time and space and i just described the bare basics of this mess.



The trial is basically forced onto the player and the most obvious dialogue options are simply not provided. Instead you get to choose among few really dumb and superficial generalizations - success of which is decided by three hard dice roll checks. All because the writers and devs really, really, really, wanted to throw a child death in your face. Because fake forced tragedy is drama.The only way you can get the better outcome is through pure lucky rolls or by save scumming. So its save scumming. You cant talk to anyone before the trial starts, you cant investigate anything, you cant even sneak in - even if invisible - because the devs decided to simply take you out of invisibility and push you into the "drama trial".

- Once it starts you cant even point out the child didnt simply just steal - but obviously tried to delay the ritual because she wanted to save her parents - from that third force attacking everyone.

- You cant of course even mention that third force. And you cant point out to the deputy boss that if she wants the refugees gone (however nonsensical that may be) - it doesn't really make sense to throw one of them into a "jail" - because thats fing gona make that child and her parents stay. And their friends too.

- You cant - not allowed - argue they should in fact throw the kid into the jail - only to sneak in and rescue her later on.

- You cant use any of your skills or magic. You cant use dexterity or sleight of hand to catch the snake in the nick of time. Apparently you can somehow talk to it but it tells you to hiss off.

- On the other hand you are not allowed to point out the refugees actually want to leave too. They dont want to stay. So, basically... they all want the same thing.

- You cant offer to find a solution to that mutual problem and investigate the real danger.

- You cant point out that the attacks have nothing to do with refugees, that its nonsense to simply assume so. That its something that should be investigated. Just like their actual boss went to do. That its very probable the grove would continue to be under attacks even if refugees are gone. That them being Druids... they could maybe try to spy on this third force using animals maybe? Which is exactly what you see one of them trying to do when she sends a bird to find their boss who "went missing".

- You certainly cant ask for the extension of the trial until you investigate whats really going on, or point out that having a riot and a war inside the grove may not be great for anyone -- while the third mysterious force is out there, the force that just tried to storm the gates.

- Or point out that "Im just trying to save my people" maybe isnt best done by closing them in from the world with no idea how long that will last and refusing to even consider investigating the third force that just attacked the grove in any way - or by expelling what can amount to a quickly trained small army?


....


I am aware that parts of this plot are not finished and fully implemented, but the core of it is so insulting, so badly done, so pretentious and full of most superficial demagoguery its ... infuriating.
And it plays really horribly too.



THE SOLUTION


The refugees are attacked and seek refuge in the Grove. The Druids in the grove already sense something is wrong and have suspicions about the mysterious third force. They have a whole forest of eyes and they use them to spy whats going on. Birds fly around, squirrels dart among the trees, rats scamper over and under ground, bugs skitter and fly around and snakes slide over the ground. Yet many of them get killed. The many eyes get extinguished. Some goblins and Gnolls are all the Druids can see.
Balsin and a few others join the adventurers and go to find out more directly.

The other Druids send some of these nature eyes to check the big ship crashing into the forest. These are the first contacts the player makes with the Grove. A squirrel chirps at you excitedly - if you can talk to the animals you get a short discussion, if not its still something interesting and unusual you may want to follow. If you turn left you encounter a snake or a rat, if you go towards the old ruined temple on the beach you get a visit by a bird. Link to the grove established.

- If you want to play evil you will need to kill these animals, else the Druids will see you came from the crashed ship and be suspicious of you. -

As i wrote here:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=707981

(The introduction of companions is greatly improved. + Wyll would join you on the Nautiloid immediately (theres no time for him to crash with it and then end up training kids in the Grove anyway). Shadowheart is also released on the Nautiloid, or if dice rolls fail found in the crashed ship, still inside the pod which now you can open more easily. Astarion is in the Jergal temple as befits a vampire, already killing and drinking blood of one of adventurers inside. You immediately figure out what he is. Decide. Gale can remain as is, i guess. Gale...)

You get to the gate of the grove and have the same fight. Only - if the player wants - you can attack the defenders, including Wyll the Blade and immediately turn for Absolute Cult. Only the Druids inside are not first, second and third level. Maybe a few are but most are much more powerful. Kagha is full Archdruid now. You try to fight the whole grove - you get ice storms, insect swarms and the full artillery compliment of high level Druid spells in your face.

The Tieflings are not weaklings.
Some of them are not fighters, but some actually are, and a mage or two, and a warlock or two. Because they are basically just random citizens of Elturel so most classes would be represented in that random group. We do encounter a fighter or two arguing with a mage of some sort, right? They do have their own very skilled smith too, so they dont lack very good weapons and armor.

Try attacking the whole grove that early - and be lucky to escape. Escape to Minthara to heal the bruised ego and plot your vengeance. Get early Absolute (tadpole) power or two from Gut and Mindhara and Razglin, go all muahaha theose dastardly Druids and hellspawn will pay dearly for their impudence! ("who is this Minthara and these ugly goblins anyway, who they are talking to down their noses like this? Just wait till i get some levels and those cool weapons Tieflings had... heh, heh, yes, yes True Souls, Absolute! right on!) Orchestrate the full frontal attack for maximum casualties on both sides, or discover and sneak through the tunnels (punish those impudent goblins for not reporting it back)



Rewind. Reload.


Fight to defeat the goblin attack on the gate as usual.

Get in, talk to some Tieflings and Druids to get your bearings, get limited trading services because the times are difficult - but you did help them. No weapons or gear +1 for you - yet.
There is no talk about "refugees causing the attacks" - at all. There are talks about "what should we do?" and "who is behind all these attacks?" and "something is extinguishing the eyes we send to investigate!"
Find out about the trial. Its not immediate but it will happen. Rest and sleep and it defaults to girl being killed by the snake. Extra option is going outside, finding the cave tunnels into the inner sanctum, defeat the goblins, save the Druid - have all that as relevant dialogue info including the fact the goblins are killing all the rats and animals to prevent them from spying - get inside in time to prevent Kagha making a big mistake. Intervene in all the ways i listed above as obvious and absolutely unavoidable by basic common sense.

Sneaking in and or talking to everyone before trial starts is now allowed.

Including the discovery of Shadowdruid links to Kagha.

- Option for more dastardly players and evil Druid characters -

Side with Kagha and Shadowdruids to take over the grove and close it through the Ritual. This option would be against the ordinary Druids and Tieflings and the Absolute. Work to get the Tieflings out before the takeover to have an easier fight, or kill them all. Lead the Tieflings into an ambush prepared by yourself and goblins - or not. Get all that sweet loot - or not. Stage the false invasion by Absolute forces then double-tripple-quadruple cross everyone! Muahahaha! (with further long term consequences later on - "Return to the Grove", the way in is through the cave tunnel of course).
Get some nifty unique gear, Shadow armor, shadow staff, shadow ring, crown of shadow thorns, shadow helmet, etc, maybe a special extra tadpole power, learn some unique Shadowdruid spells if you are a Druid.
If you are not a druid the Shadowdruids and Kagha try to doublecross you and reveal or steal your powers - they try to extract the tadpole - with interesting consequences.


"Return to the Shadow Grove"

In act two or three get the option of traveling back to the act one area. Find it changed based on your decisions. If you sided with the Shadowdruid plot find the grove still covered by ritual of Thorns, only its corrupted and shadowy now.
Get in through the cave tunnels. Or maybe if you are a druid and a shadowdruid you get some item that lest you through the thorns. Inside the Shadowdruids changed everything, killed everyone else. If you are a druid, an evil druid - have the option of dueling their boss to become Shadow Archdruid and boss of the grove - which then becomes your base of operations - stronghold. Or just leave them doing what they do, spreading the corrupted ritual over the whole area. Selune temple is left devastated and empty.

- Help Shadowdruids clear any other humanoids in the area including the Zhentarim. Then explain/remind them (mandatory tadpole dialogue option) they too are humans and so threat to the nature and have them commit mass suicide. Suckers.




Rewind. Reload.

The normal - decent play through.
Stop the attack, get inside.
Prevent the mistake and bad consequences of the trial through all the extended options listed above. Fail and have a war break out inside the grove. Reload or deal with the consequences.
Discover the goblins in the tunnels and use that in dialogue and arguing too.
Act to start organizing mutual defenses by Druids and Tieflings. Decide if you will let Wyll train the Tieflings or go with you. He trains the warlocks too, not just fighters.

Act to discover who is behind the attacks as usual.
Decide whether to release or kill Balsin depending on whether you want to restore him to the grove or side with Kagha and her Shadowdruid plot.
Exterminate the cult of the Absolute. Or switch sides mid stride and double and triple cross everyone.
Lie to Mindhara to lure her into invading the grove - now even more prepared to fight. Side with her forces or Druids by acting in that fight. Or, just outright clean the Selune defiled temple as usual.

Help Balsin defeat Kagha and the Shadowdruids who attempt a takeover after the Goblins are solved.

If playing as a Druid, have a few extra options in dialogue. Help or enable some Tieflings to stay in the grove and become druids. Maybe an option to become the Archdruid later on in the positive "Return to the Grove"
Most Tieflings leave for Baldurs gate in any case.

On return the Selune temple is restored and cleaned, some people and few Tieflings start to live there.




OR, keep everything as it is and listen to Druids tell you that

"Uhh, refugees must go... because of the ritual... because... uhh, it has electrolytes!"

And you lost me right there. Not only can the Druid Grove be entirely skipped or the argument made that the Goblin Camp is the centerpiece, but I think it is amazing as is and I am not reading a wall of text that starts off so negative. Sorry.

Yea I take serious issue with the fact that we can not convince Zevlor the leader of a group that charged into the hells (The Hellriders) to fight some goblins so they can get to Baldur's Gate is a bit ridiculous. Also I think your parallel of the situation to real life is your own head canon but that's not the point. I agree the entire handling of the druids feels awkward and overly restrictive for a game that should be open ended.

Just realized that Wyll is suspicious because either he did not get on the nautiloid or I am missing something I hope this was not a continuity error that is pretty embarrassing.

Otherwise yea I agree with what you're saying, the tieflings need more options, the shadow druids need more options and the solutions need to make more sense in the context of the greater story.

Rumrunner - Nothing to be sorry about. Enjoy the electrolytes. Skip leaving such irrelevant replies to my posts in the future too. Negative... hmpf...



Just to adress this; i dont see how this can be described as my head cannon... the situation is basically a nonsense of "refugees are bad, get out refugees" why... dunno, because, - while Kagha is shown to be and even look like a Trump surrogate, with obvious connections to how some people were supposedly "against Syrian refugees" for "crazy reasons" in Europe and how US was against refugees - period. That is clumsily conflated with "refugees are the reason we are getting attacked" in the game - which doesnt make sense in the game and never happened in real life. With additional clumsy excuse for the other side of "Im just trying to protect my people"... which does not make any sense in that situation.

The way its presented and constrained so other very important factors in the game, its lore and setting of DnD are simply removed and not even up for discussion, let alone allowed to be relevant in any way - makes it impossible to see that basic setup as anything else.

I dont mind games or stories of any kind drawing on real events. I mind its done so badly.

I read the first half, describing the problem, and I wondered if we played the same game.

I can't totally discard the idea that this might be a troll. Although if it was, I'd have to tip my hat to the effort made, since most just go for incendiary one-liners these days.

We definitely didnt play the same game. The hilarious reflex accusation of trolling no less, is just priceless. As well as not being able to read the whole post. Sponsored by brawndo no doubt.

I agree there is some stuff that doesn't make sense in the grove right now, some options that need to be explored and dialogues that need to be fleshed out and given more flexibility *especially the gate encounter and the trial with the child and Kagha* all that but it doesn't need a full rewrite. This post is worth a read even if he is making some assumptions, it's well thought out.

I didnt even consider that part, i just forgot it. He even fights in the attack on the gates. Even so its impossible all people who turned into Tieflings were all scribes and traders and other non fighting material. And we have a small talk with those three arguing should they stay or should they go.



Im currently considering that all companions introductions were just placeholder implementation, because - i think to myself, surely the eventual full version cant be that bad. Surely no one would think this is how you introduce companions. And its really easy to slightly change how each is introduced to achieve much better overall quality of the start of the game - and also make the companions look like complete fools right at the start.

Wyll is also from that exact area of the game world, which additionally strains the suspension of disbelief. He sure managed to reinstall himself into the druid grove really quickly after being abducted, implanted, sent through a chase through other planes, then hell, got back to the same place on the whole Faerun to crash into and jump back into being a teacher for Tieflings...

I did suggest an easy adjustment to the intro tutorial that would smooth that issue over and provide a believable excuse why the Nautiloid returned to that exact spot - while at the same time removing the unfortunate scene of Githyanaki listening to Mindflayers orders and doing what it tells her to do. While at the same time having no idea how the Nautiloid transponder really works or which tentacles go where and do what.

On the other hand it seems im the only one that even noticed that "small detail" so the studio can pat their own backs and say "Nah, the players liked it, nobody else complained about it, who is that guy anyway, its not like we are paying him at all... lets keep it as it is!"







btw, surely its obvious i dont suggest a full rewrite. Thats the whole point.
There is a lot of things to cover up and improve but its basically just adjusting what is already there.

Only Zevlor is a Hellrider, his bodyguard and the dude training the kids seem to be the only fighters, many the angsty dude too.

So one Hell rider and 3 fighters

Feels like you didnt pay attention at all, really nothing you said is valid lol

There is nothing unknown or mysterious about goblins ...
Druids dont know about Absolute, therefore they are just that ... goblins.


I presumed something like this happened for some time ago ...
They have allready established livin in groove, so obviously they didnt get there yesterday. :-/


Disagree ...
Halsin cant tell everyone about what is happening for two reasons, fist ... he dont know (yet) what is happening, and second, it would cause panic. Something that every responsible leader wish to avoid.
Nettie was not told, she was there when things happened, so she kinda know on her own.

And about Kagha ... maybe in wrong here, but it seemed to me, like Halsin didnt name anyone to be a leader in his absence (probably he didnt concider goblins to be such threat in his arogance) ... Kagha just used opourtunity to take leadership.


Its quite simple really ...

No refugees => no attacks (or less w/e).
Refugees => attacks (or more, w/e again).

Even small child should be able to see some pattern here ...
Since Minthara dont know where the groove is ... i presume that Tieflings was chased by goblins (after all, when you free Sazza and take her to Minthara, Minthara asks her if they defeated her pray), while traveled to Baldurs Gate, when Goblin scouting party dont showed up, Minthara could presume that they were killed ... since then they were scouting the area, and occasionaly find the groove ... then it was critical for Tieflings to kill them all, and hide bodies as fast as possible ...
Therefore we get curent situation:
Goblins were here allways, but didnt care about the groove, since they probably didnt even know about it, druids were leting them just be alone and everyone was kinda happy ... now they do, and since theyr leader wants to kill Tieflings, for some reason i dont know yet ... its reasonable to expect that those attact will not stop, while Tieflings are here ... its also reasonable to expect them to continue even if Tieflings will be driven out, so Druids needed some kind of protection ... here comes Kagha and her ritual of Thorns, drastic but effective method.

You dont investigate "third force" bcs no one in groove knows there is any "third force" ... maybe except that one who Minthara want dead, personaly i presume its Zevlor, but dunno so far ... it could the same be even Kagha ... after all, she shows some sights of discomfort in her head, so she may be even tadpoled.
Anyway for every druid in groove is situation as simple as: Goblins are attacking bcs that is what goblins do.
They have litteraly no reason to expect any "third force" to be involved ...


Funny enough, that there is more Fighters between Tiefling refugees, then how many (1-4) they are sending do goblin camp to take care about their problem ...
So if they really wish to solve it on their own, they certainly could.

Therefore it seem to me like Tieflings kinda liked it in groove, and Zevlor was simply abused Halsins goodness ...
"Oh but there is terrible danger on the route, please let us stay here safe, feeded and in relative comfort."


Not druids ... Kagha ...
She dont care about what will be with Tieflings, bcs she have no reason to care about them ... they are not her people, she need to care about her own, this is where her concern is ending ... amplified with the fact that Tieflings are obviously, and demonstrably stealing in groove, her patience and compasion with them is even thinner.
Dont forget that when Kagha sends you to Zevlor to offer him your protection on the route, so as you can see she dont care about Tieflings, but also she have no quarrel with them ... Zevlor on the other hand tries to kill you in responce instead of any futher talking, the second you just deliver message that they need to leave ...

"Attacks will stop" is obviously false presumption ...
First, there is no guarantee that another refugees (or maybe even the same) dont show by the gate next day (or any day after) and this whole situation will not repeat itself.
Second, there is the fact that goblins are raiding whole are for quite some time as it seems (Blightted willage certainly dont seem as if it was raided yesterday) and since they now know where groove is, of can find out if they capture some refugee alive, they present potential risk.
Therefore ritual of thorns prevent both problems, and will not hurt Druids in any way ... perfect solution.


This is simply not true ... i mean yup, nobody cares about them being tieflings ... but there is at least two druids that are actively try to find out more ... for one there is Nettie, and then there is that Elf druid outside, that is talking to bird ... when you persuate her, you will find out that she was sending the bird to find out Halsin, tell him what is happening inside groove and then report back to this Elf to tell her what is happening outside.
The rest ... seem to either not care about Tieflings, or being too cowardish to stand up against Kagha.
I didnt seen it for myself yet, but i heard that there is another route, to expose Kagha as Shadow Druid ... then others will stand up against her.


Kagha says specificly this, when you first talk to her ... cant quote her exactly ... but there is something like:
Refugees must go, since groove canot sustain so much people.


Or ... we may presume that they allready did all this, yet it was not enough ... and they have more interests than simply just creating more food for some ungreatfull tieflings. :-/


I allways presumed that this ritual is simply forewer.
You dont need to care about siege, if you are in inpenetrable fortress, that is selfsuistanable ... same as the attacks, goblins can try to attack, but since statue of Silvanus prowide enough magic power to keep them grow for quite some time (possibly for years, or decades, or even lifespan ... who knows?) they dont need to care.

I must admit that this ritual was kinda disapointing to me, since it only thorns main gate, and that underground passage (the entrance that is from owlbear cave is still reachable with misty step) ... i expected whole groove to become covered with magical thorny weins, like a rooftop. But i gues i was wrong here.

If you read Druid description on wikipedia, there is strictly writed that quite often druids help people against pack of gnolls ... just to in the end turn against those people, to protect last gnoll to be killed ... druids are suppose to maintain ballance, and as it seems Kagha see ballance in leting outside world to take care about itself.


Its a simple solution to all problems ...
And i bet that Kagha also does have her own reasons, probably make impossible for Halsin to return and take back his leadership.

Also, they are certainly not innocent ...
They put her own people in danger (attacks are at least more often since they are here), allready using most space of the groove (just compare how big is tiefling camp, and how many habitable caves you found elsewhere), they are certainly stealing (they steal even from you, when you are buying from that tiefling kid), demanding to not submit to druids laws, even if they are guests here (that part where Kagha wants to judge that little girl, who was stealing ... but Tieflings demanded her to being handed over, so their deal with own people as they seem fit).
I think Kagha could be much more harsh to them, if she want ... and still have no regrets.


That wounded druid is certainly loose end, that should be fixed ...

About ritual ... i presume its simply, bcs its strongest ritual their class offer ... it may not sounds much roleplay, but when you think about it ... ad druid, you just need to think as a druid ... there is strongest druid spell, that could protect you ... so you try it.
Either it will work, or they are screwed anyway ... so there is nothing to loose.


Sometimes you just need some challenge.
This time, you need to persuate / intimidate (or w/e is there) some person to do something that is entirely against her conviction.
I think its understandable that it will be hard.


I believe it would be irelevant for Kagha anyway ...


Bcs you also dont know about them so far ...
Clearly the story is writen for player who fights at the gate, then enters the groove ... that character in this time knows only that there is goblins attacking, that is something everyone knows. Why tells them that there are goblins outside, since goblins are the reason this ritual is being used? O_o

I believe that sentence for this child was not suppose to be "jail" ... but delayed execution.


That is actualy interesting idea ...


Another interesting idea ...


I dunno on what you are building this idea ...
Did any refugee specificly told you that they want to leave? Maybe except that arguing 3 tieflings, who wants to leave by their own and leave others to their fate.
I recall that Zevlor told me that they cannot leave, but nothing more.

But anyway, i presume it once aggain, would be irelevant for Kagha ... they pushed her to this position of angry refusal, by their own behaviour ... maybe she would be more open to negotiation, if they were more humble and gratefull ... but not when they behave like this. :-/


Well, you actualy are ... if you decide to kill goblin leaders, and hope you made it in time.

Kagha seem to me like she allready offers solution to satisfy both sides, when she wants you to offer your blade as escort to Baldur's Gate ... but Zevlor is in this quite subborn. :-/
True that she seem like she dont see much reason to relent, after all ... this is her home, and she offered those Tieflings much more simpathy than she needed to.


This i allready comented ...


Once aggain ... for everyone inside the groove (except Nettie) there is no force, your characters included.
Yes, you know that goblins have some new godess, if you saved Sazza ... but does that even change anything?


You are a little bit repetitive here ... you know that?


Point is, they dont ... if you change that, you need to completely rewrite whole story around the groove. :-/

Halsin specificly told you that he joined those adventurers to get to Moonrise Towers ... since he know, or sence ... or something like that, that there is source of those problems.


This seems odd ...
If druids feels that there is something wrong ... and sends animals to investigate ... and those animals will find you crowling out of crashed nautiloid ...
Why the hells should they send you to the Groove?

"Hey, humanoid i never seen you and have no idea who you are, how did you get here, what is your business, or what were you doing on that certainly non natural thing that burned, and crushed half of forest ... but come with me, i introduce you to some druids that was hidden in their groove, from any danger of outside world, for quite some time until now."

That seem just odd.


Still odd ...
Why should my selfish and greedy (aka evil) character even care about some squirels? :-/


I believe you can attack defenders allready ...
I didnt try yet, to be honest, but since last fight my mouse jumped for a few milimeters, and i shooted Gale, instead of Goblin ... i presume it is entirely possible.
But i kinda doubt that Goblins will turn to be friendly for you ... it just dont seem to make much sence, they arent exactly the most "gratefull" species. :-/

Also why even would you ... so far there was no mentions about Absolute, not in game, nor this your "upgraded" version ... and even if Goblins were shouting something about the Absolute, you still have no idea who or what it is.


That i comented earlier.


Once aggain plotholes ...
First of all, i wonder why would any character help goblins here ... for good characters, they are vermins that should be eradicated ... for neutrals they are insignificant, and irelevant ... and for evil characters, they are outnumbered, outgeared, and have clearly all disadvantages of attackers on fortress without any siege machines.
But lets presume that this particular character have some twisted own reason to help them:

- For one, you escape to Minthara, sooner than you even know there even is any Minthara ...
- For two, im not exactly sure how you mean that "heal" part ... but Minthara certainly dont seem to me like type who will heal you, nor give you time to heal yourself, you are expendable for her ... so your job in her eyes is keep attacking while you stand, and when you fall, keep attack lying down.
- For three, you are talking about getting some power from Gut, Minthara and Ragzlin ... that once aggain completely alters their character ... they are not here to help you, nor they have any desire to ... Gut wants to use you, Minthara wants to use you, and Ragzlin dont believe you so he wants to crush you, if you feed his suspicion in any way ... that is to put it simply game of evil characters, outsmart the other one ...
- For five what impudence? You attacked them, remember?

I have to say that i like the idea of using secret passage, personaly i must say i like that Gate fight ... but anyway i found it being quite sad that you cant use any other approach. Not all characters are fit to being in front line.

Just for future reference, when i get these kinds of pathethic outbursts i dont consider them to be anything more then simpleton mindless reactions. And thats a kind description. Because of course the only other move posters like that have is to pretend they are victimized and furiously click on report button.



I would think that the issues of possible lack of food and devilish ancestry and looks will be at least mentioned by some NPCs when the EA gets updated to some level. Currently its just something that players have to imagine themselves.
Its not presented as relevant at all. But thats not where it should just stop. In my version of the grove gameplay and narrative these issues will be present, will be talked about when you talk to other NPCs in the grove.

Some Druids will point out they cant sustain such an increase in population, some will mention being distrustful of the hellish newcomers. Outsiders, foreigners, all the worse for being devil kin. A few Kagha allies would sure be more brutish about it. But that only leads directly into player dialogue options, the most obvious ones.

"You say the grove wont have enough food to sustain larger population for a long time? So... you think you will close yourselves off for a long time? And just let the antagonistic forces ravage the country around you? You will just let them hold the grove in a siege until they figure out a way in? They almost did already but i stopped them in those tunnels and saved one of yours, you know?"

"The refugees say they dont want to stay either, all the want is to get to the Baldurs Gate. So if we can figure out a way to allow them to leave you wont need to worry about lack of food. Or filthy foreign devil looking hordes dirtying your grove."

"Hey, you have a common enemy, why not use these hellspawn to deal with the real threat more easily? If some die well... all the better, eh?"

"As i see you have plenty of nature around. A river can be fished, right? Maybe someone can go and clear those Harpies out for you so you get more access to the river? I thought you druids can hasten the growth of plants too? Make it easier for hunters to catch wild game? I mean if it really comes to that, there are some options here."


None of these should be written in obviously evil way. These dialogue options should be available to all builds, with some flavor additions. And what you choose to say will lead into possibility of turning the grove the right way or the Shadowdruids way.
Or just turn out to be lies you used to get your own way later on, whichever way you choose to go when the action starts, as described above.


@RagnarokCzD


Ill try to respond in more succinct ways then to create another overly long quoting reply. You seem to be confused and contradict yourself on your biggest counter arguments.
While you misinterpret a few of mine.

Most importantly - there is obviously a "third force" in the play. Its true intentions and reasons are mysterious at the very start. The very same goblins that attacked the gate, and the ones in the tunnels, and the gnolls that atacked the caravan, and Vaukeens rest and toll collectors inn. To anyone with a brain it would be clear something very unusual and dangerous is happening. Druids should know about most of these cases - simply by looking, and getting a few arrows zipping past their heads.
Additionally Halsin and Nettie got attacked previously. This is obviously not just the ordinary state of affairs of "some goblins just being goblins, hey".

And no there is no sane reason why Halsin should keep any of that a secret, or why would any panic erupt if he told other members of his own grove. All he achieves by not telling anyone is to make them unprepared for danger. The fact he told Nettie doesnt correct this because she doesnt tell anyone so the grove does not know - there is something else even more sinister going on.

Refugees definitely dont want to stay in the grove. Its simply nonsensical to claim "ah but thats not what they really think". Its just absurd nonsense. And lying to oneself to support what you consider the "right official plot".
Majority of refugees you can talk to say precisely that. none want to stay in the grove. Zevlor merely says they cannot leave right now - for a very good reason.

I didnt say that animal scouts should invite or lead the character to the grove. I said "link established". The evil characters would have an option to kill those to keep their ship origin a secret, which would fit with evil frame of mind, looking to cheat everyone.
Its an option, not a mandatory thing. And evil character being evil - killing animals would go along with that playstyle.
You would not become a member of the absolute cult by attacking druids and tieflings at the gate - but that would start that process. Evil character may just prefer to have that as an option available. Especially on repeated playthroughs when players know who is who. It provides options in gameplay.


... hold on...


By the very facts and events established in the game now we can see that refugees dont have anything to do with the attacks - which were done previous to them coming to this area. They just found themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Refugees are not the cause of the attack on the gate either - the adventuring party Halsin joined was. Refugees also dont have anything to do with goblins in the tunnels. Or the attacks on those inns on the other side.
We also find out the attacks are actually happening because of the Absolute - who considers anyone not belonging to the cult an enemy that should be eradicated. The main task you need to do for the Absolute is to find the grove so they can destroy it.
So the game is literally showing you that fact. And yes, they even have a goblin prisoner to get information out of.
Yet you hilariously claim, despite all that:



just... lol.

Yes Kagha takes over the grove on her own. What does that change in what i said? Unless you are imagining something i didnt, which is a god chunk of your reply.
She does send you to talk to Zevlor but not in a way where you should clear a path for refugees, she just sends you to get them out, like right now.
And she can also send you to kill Zevlor - again, without a slightest consideration for the force attacking everyone - and actively trying to find the grove and destroy it completely.

As for the Minthara side, you are a True Soul and if your prove yourself valuable it isnt so illogical you would get something from the Absolute cult. Gut is a priestess so surely knows a healing spell or two.
Those were just suggestions for some diversity and making the evil path have some small additions to it - instead of being very sparse which almost all the evil players criticized so far for lack of options and content.

Te rest of your reply is just personal fantasies which dont make much sense when compared to the actual content in the game.



never happened.



Not really.



One kid is not - they. And i didnt notice anything stolen in that situation. My rogue did teach the kid some tricks though.



The kid was not just stealing, unless your brain stopped functioning. And those were her parents who just wanted their kid back, afraid for her life there was no such "demands not to submit to druid laws"



The level of misunderstanding here is just epic. That would be in a normal situation, and obviously any kind of balance requires acting. Its like you cant really connect the meaning of few sentences following one another.

And you seem completely incapable to consider what closing the grove for years or forever would mean in the context of the setting and the situation the game presents.



Nettie is not actively trying to do anything. And the bird is only sent to find Halsin, nothing else. By one character - establishing that Druids can use animals to scout and keep an eye on their area, but they just didnt. Because of electrolytes.

"I didn't get the emphatically positive responses that I was expecting, so I'm going to be condescending to attempt to assign value and credibility to my terrible takes."
10/10 post, would read again.

Okay, giant wall of text aside the third unseen force behind Olodan and her cabal is a narrative issue. She is not working with the Absolute so her motivations need to either be explained in Act 1 or some time later on.

Im thinking that I agree that the grove needs to be more groovy: there should be cannabis plants growing in the grove and a few VW camper vans scattered around. More headbands, bellbottoms and tie dye shirts also. Would go a long way to making the driuds more in line with forgotten realms lore.

Then change the goblins to the police, and have them trying to move the druids on from their illegal occupation.

The "third force" im talking about are the goblins, gnolls and the cult of Absolute in the desecrated Selune temple.

They are a "third force" directly affecting the Druids - refugees situation in the grove. Shadowdruids are a further outside additional and very small side in the game currently, which is why i suggested those few extensions.

This thread is not the best example of courteous discussion.

I suggest that all involved think about improving their manners and debating style.

To be fair though, these forums like many others act as a mirror in some ways. If you start a thread with negativity, you get negativity back. Plenty of people come here with unpopular ideas, but they don't act like a monkey throwing its poo and so the thread gets civil debate. OP started his post by shitting on something that a lot of people love, so why be surprised at the result?

For example, you can find many threads where I disagree with them in part or in total, yet I have still thanked them for there opinions because they were presented without negative input. Saying something needs to be fixed is much different than saying it's a POS.

what? the fact fact they are tieflings is brought up literally all the time... especially if you are one.