Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General my superfluous opinion on BGIII EA

I'll start by admitting I'm on the younger side; my first cRPG was the Dragon Age series (with II as my personal favorite... yes, I know, chuck all credibility right out the gate, haha). So I'm not coming into this as a long time fan of the first two Baldur's Gate games. And I've played a few sessions of DnD but I'd hardly consider myself an expert. That said, I enjoyed BGIII so much I picked up the first two games. Regardless of your opinions on the game so far, the buzz around the sequel bringing new, younger fans to the series overall can certainly be viewed as a positive.

I won't touch too much on gameplay mechanics. People far more articulate on this front than I have already gone into great detail about the flaws. I'll only mention a couple aspects in passing as they relate to narrative.

The thematic thrust feels like an interplay between power and identity. Each companion comes in with a firmly established identity, and the mindflayer abduction and subsequent race to prevent ceremorphosis calls that identity into question. In contrast, DOS2 starts out with all the characters in a position of being marginalized by an institution (the True Order), but this doesn't have much impact on any of the companions' arcs besides Ifan. I have a rather low opinion of the narrative in DOS2--still fun to play, however--and BGIII already steps up the writing quality just by making the central narrative more cohesive with individual companion arcs.

The focus on identity does make the player character feel somewhat extraneous in comparison, however, unless you're an ardent roleplayer. My personal favorite run so far involved a gruff bounty hunter with a secret heart of gold who went around demanding money from everyone, and then when the tieflings finally offer him his reward, he turned it down. That was a satisfying gaming moment. But I understand complaints that the MC doesn't feel as special/pivotal as the companions (partially a result of the origin system, which I'm indifferent to overall), because his identity isn't being explicitly defined/opposed by the narrative.

Still, I'm really liking the companions so far. While their animations are janky and need improvement, I particularly enjoy their physicality. Lae'zel's sharp, abrupt hand gestures; Shadowheart and Astarion's sneering, snarky eyebrow wiggles; Wyll's overall braggadocios theatrics; Gale's unctuous, narcissistic finger pointing. I also liked that certain defining aspects of their identity aren't revealed right away (even if in some cases it's rather obvious: looking at you, Astarion), letting more layers naturally reveal themselves. Wyll and Lae'zel comes across as the two main exceptions. Wyll is someone whose layers are presented immediately and then peeled back to showcase the weak, angry coward within, while Lae'zel is a very straightforward character (which is fine and serves as a refreshing contrast to the others, although she's not without her machinations). Unfortunately, due to the game's bugginess, it's easy to miss many pivotal character scenes, but that'll be smoothed over when the full game releases.

The other aspect of the companions I appreciate so far is just how unreliable they are. They're constantly lying and manipulating the player and I trust them about as far as I can throw them. A good example of this is Lae'zel. In most of my playthroughs, she refuses to elaborate more on what purification entails, claiming she can't say anything because it's her sacred duty. But in a githyanki playthrough, she instead admits she doesn't KNOW what purification entails. The companions constantly try to position themselves to be viewed a certain way (Astarion wants to be pitied and underestimated, Gale and Lae'zel want to be voices of authority, Wyll wants to be heroic). Funnily enough, Shadowheart may be the only exception, despite her secrecy and paranoia. Having an urgent overarching quest throw together a bunch of disparate personalities is part of the fun of this type of party storytelling. I do agree we need some more straightforward/good aligned companions to balance them out, however.

My personal favorite companion is far and away Shadowheart. Mainly because I'm a sucker for anyone who's suffered from severe religious trauma, and they really nailed a character who's beginning to doubt her role in a cult but hasn't quite broken free of the gaslighting/brainwashing. Part of me would really love it if her arc entailed going from devout to faithless, but the Selune theory seems far more likely and more in line with the general cosmology of the forgotten realms. I find there are a lot of interesting mysteries surrounding Shadowheart, and her storyline seems to be where a lot of the faction elements intersect. It's also cute to me how she tries hard to come across as world weary (I lol whenever she talks about preferring one night stands) and flirty while in reality she's just this awkward ball of mush. Plus she loves animals... I'm a simple creature.

My other favorite character is Gale. He's just as slimy and manipulative as Astarion, but he hides it a lot better. Someone described him as a weave vampire, which made me chuckle, but it also fits really well. The whole scene where he dies and you bring him back to life is probably one of if not my favorite companion interaction in the whole game so far. Just very funny, tongue-in-cheek, unexpected, and also says quite a lot about Gale. I don't trust that he's telling the whole truth about his affair with Mystra, either. That dude is a wolf in sheep's clothing (insert meme here). And I personally like his whole loot-eating deal. It creates a neat little moral quandary where you either keep him and lose out on potentially useful stuff or kick him to the curb for selfish, materialistic reasons.

My least favorite character is probably Astarion, mainly because he comes across as your typical hedonistic pseudo-Dorian Grey sex-is-interchangeable-with-violence vampire. I do like that he has a legitimate reason to keep the tadpole in and try to figure out how to control it, however, creating a natural conflict of interest with the rest of the party. And I also like that he's the only companion (so far, anyway, as far as I know) who will try and use the tadpole even if you stop using yours, although again, the scene is absurdly hard to trigger. But I personally hope he doesn't get a redemption arc as not every character needs one, and his archetype tends to be much more fun when they're unrepentantly chaotic evil.

My biggest complaint so far is the way the diegetic and non-diegetic elements combine to create a jarring sense of ludonarrative dissonance at times. The camping function is the most egregious example, exacerbated by the just how many pivotal companion moments you miss out on if you don't use it. Really the way time functions in general comes across as counterintuitive and consistently broke my suspension of disbelief. I don't specifically need a day/night cycle and I don't think it's necessary to create immersion: DA:O didn't have one was fine without it; but I think they need to do more to ground the narrative in some semblance of time beyond updates in the journal that are easy to miss.

This isn't really a criticism, at least not on my end, but I also think if this were a movie it would be classed more within the action/thriller genre than the older games or the traditional high fantasy adventure epics such as LOTR that DnD draws so much inspiration from. In that regard, I can see what people mean when they describe it as not 'feeling' like Baldur's Gate. The pacing in general is much faster than the older games, which involved a lot of trekking through the woods and quiet moments where nothing happens. Now I don't personally need these moments to feel immersed but it does change the overall atmosphere of the game.

Regarding the main overarching narrative. Other than a lot of inconsistencies seeming to be waved away by saying, 'oh, a special tadpole did it,' I really like it. The dreams, the mysterious Daisy figure, the Absolute conspiracy, the temptation to use the tadpole powers to bypass checks, these all fit nicely into the overall theme of BG regarding power and resisting the allure of power. While I'm not all that into the true evil path--siding with goblins--the game provides you with a lot of options for story quests and potential for roleplay. I also like that the side quests, as well as the companion quests, all are either rooted in the overarching quest (Auntie Ethel, for example, offers to cure you of your tadpole) or tie into the important factions vying for power (Shadowheart is involved with both Shar and the githyanki, Lae'zel ties into the githyanki, Wyll ties into the hell plot with his cambion friend, Gale I'm not quite sure but his connection to Netherese magic just makes me really suspicious, and Astarion is also up in the air but I wouldn't be surprised if Cazador ends up having some relation to the Absolute conspiracy as well). Everything feels cohesive and thematically relevant in some fashion or another.

So... yeah. I really like BGIII; it gives me a lot of similar feelings Dragon Age at its best gave me. Hopefully they iron out the kinks in EA and give us a game that both old and new fans of the series can enjoy.

I'm in the same boat as far as the type of player and I agree with most everything here. I definitely agree about the sense of time being weird, having the journals say one thing but contradict the camp stuff is a little jarring and just confuses some of the urgency personally. I think the one slight thing I disagree with is not letting us have influence over the companions. I do think we should be able to push them either direction since personally I find characters who stay the same or don't grow (for good or ill) boring and what would be the point in some of the replayability if their outcome is always the same? But yes, as a new to Baldur's Gate games and only casually have played a few D&D sessions, I'm finding it incredibly fun and think the story is shaping up to be very good. I really enjoy reading perspectives from both hardcore fans of the original and newer players like myself. My two cents at least, as far as piggy backing off OP.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up, Myriad!

It's good to have feedback coming in from different types of gamers, and a well thought out discussion is always worthwhile feedback ^.^

While most of your discussions of the story and narrative elements here are sound, I feel like it shows that you've been browsing the story discussion and data-mining threads on the side as well, and I'm concerned that that's colouring your perspective on the actual writing and conveyance of the game itself (you used a handful of terms and terminology that don't show up anywhere in game, that people have only picked out from deeper mining). you'll probably find a number of people who'll disagree with you about the writing, but many who agree as well. For myself, personal, I can't agree with you on the calibre or quality of the writing as it's presented in game; I find it tacky and ham-fisted, and not really compelling at all. It uses far too many overly cliched elements, and a lot of cheap tropes to do the work of proper story-telling.

Most people will agree with you on the score of the player character feeling like a mop; the designers love their OCs very dearly... to the extent that they don't feel like companions at all, and certainly there's no way to justify any of them adopting you as their leader and following your decisions. This is something that we're generally hoping will get improved substantially as the EA progresses. I still cannot really understand why or how anyone could possibly like Shadowheart, to be honest... but many people seem to. Mostly people who know all about her underlying hidden back-story and retroactively assign a great deal of sympathy for her as a result... but from my perspective, that's not what's presented in the game.

You're not wrong about certain game and story elements creating stark narrative dissonance, and a lot of people will agree with you there. It seems problematic to the writing and game design to have a plot that is all about the time-sensitivity of your situation, while gating almost the entirety of the companion's character progression and advancement on Missable sequences that depend on you resting for the night incredibly frequently.

Despite some various disagreements, thoughtful feedback like this, and people taking the time to write it, is always a good thing so appreciation for the effort for that ^.^

While I've been paying attention to the data mining and ongoing discussions, most of this is present within the game itself, in my humble opinion. Of course, 'Daisy' is a datamined term, but even then, there are multiple clues that Daisy and the tadpole--and therefore, whatever is behind the Absolute--are separate entities. Such as the tadpole reacting violently whenever he/she appears. Now, if I were to say something about the Chancellor at Waukeen's Rest and Desire, that would be very much informed by datamining. The game intentionally muddies the waters and tries to misdirect you with unreliable characters, and I know this for a fact because of instances like the Lae'zel example I posted. There's also a scene in the third dream where the MC can both accuse Daisy of being the tadpole and say the tadpole wants to hurt him/her. Extrapolating meaning from subtext is the heart of discussion of any form of literature, so I'm not sure I agree with your conveyance issues (outside of bugs and the like that prevent certain narrative triggers). As long as it can be supported by the text--and so far most of my observations can be supported by the text, at least as far as I'm aware--the amount of time fine tuning these observations through discussion is ultimately irrelevant. And I could be wrong, of course, and if I am and the decision doesn't make sense given everything shown so far within the first act, that can undeniably be attributed to bad writing and poor conveyance.


That's fair. I don't necessarily mind clichés and overused tropes if they're done well. Dragon Age: Origins is a very unoriginal game, but it handles all of its well-worn tropes with a comforting, competently executed familiarity. Most games have a hard time justifying the MC as leader, so that's something I generally just suspend my disbelief over. I'm currently playing through the original Baldur's Gate, and it's quite the tonally dissonant romp with a lot of common fantasy tropes as well, but as someone who loves books like David Eddings The Belgariad, that can also serve as a strength. Baldur's Gate III goes for more of a blockbluster style with its characters (they remind me of Marvel characters in a lot of ways), but while the style is glitzier, they're still grounded in enough minute details to feel real. If they lean into the strengths of the style and their characters they'll be a lot of fun, I think, although it's hard to say for sure until we see the second and third act (and Larian does not have a great track record with their second and third acts, imo, which is a little concerning). I do understand why people find this style unappealing, however. Offsetting the current companions with more 'mundane' companions would solve a lot of these complaints.


Honestly, some of what I've seen in the datamining does make me like Shadowheart a little bit less. But most of what I like about her stems from what I've seen in the game (put in about 100 hours), as well as the fact that I'm just very familiar with signs of religious trauma, having grown up in a religious household. And while the forgotten realms is not earth, a lot of what I'm seeing in Shadowheart's character (mind wiped, paranoid, standoffish, etc., etc.) fall in line with my own personal experiences, so I can't help but gravitate toward her. And I think her VA is exceptional, and exceptional VA work can transcend the quality of writing--just look at Commander Shepard, who could easily have been an awful milquetoast military hero/deranged lunatic with too much power if not for Jennifer Hale's nuanced work (and Meer eventually, although I thought it took him a while longer to grow into the role).


Of course. And given Astarion's popularity, I could see Larian being flexible with his arc. That said, I'd prefer it if some, not all, character were given redemption/corruption arcs. With Astarion I'd rather his arc involved becoming a vampire lord/being given back to Cazador/betraying you and dying (again) brutally. Haha. Still plenty of room for variation without necessarily including redemption. But I'm sure opinions vary.

Thank you for this. I think you've articulated my own thoughts on why I enjoy these companions much better than I could have.

In regards to the custom character - I'm okay with Larian keeping our custom characters backstories as mostly a blank slate. My hope is that we'd see effort put into giving the custom PC unique opportunities to express their identities (e.g. scenes/content not available to the origin characters).

I basically agree 100% with your assessment of the companions. I also like Astarion the least of the bunch, but I do think that he presents an interesting exploration of the theme you've identified. He is the one character that has uniquely gone through the dance of identity and power twice.

Also agree with the sense of time being an issue. Tying important narrative components to long rests seems to directly conflict with the urgency the plot instills in you. I personally would've loved to have a day/night cycle, more so from a gameplay/mechanical standpoint, but I do understand why Larian doesn't want to implement it since that would cause problems with the way they've structured the narrative.

I literally like everyone better, because I hate Lae'zel sooooooooooo much. As soon as I can change the Class of an OC, so I can have a tank without her, she is out. I need her in my party for this reason, and cant wait until I don't.

I Loved Dragon Age, If I remember correctly the camping system in that game was pretty good. The problem with this game, is the D&D system itself for cRPGs. They take the direct rules of the PnP game and write it into this version of it. The camping feature of this game was meant to give you something to do during the many times you have to camp, just to reset spells. There is a reason for this in PnP, because you dont want 1 party member to be able to outclass the rest of the party, or spam fireball constantly. Larian did a pretty good job with how they implemented cooldowns and an AP Turn system in DOS2.(Which thanks to this game I learned about, and am currently playing, since I burned thru EA so quickly here.)
I wish that they would do that with this game, and get rid of the rest to reset spells grind. It's archaic, and has no place in a cRPG. I get that maybe they want to hold true to the original games, but we've evolved past this in the gaming community, and its time to let go of nostalgia for it. They have gained the rights from WotC to use 5E, but if this game is going to be reborn in a new successful franchise, they need to be willing to adapt 5E to a cooldown system.

Welcome to discuss OP. I do not think it is so different age between us and some of use that played BG1 at release date were not adults then example teenager. I have eaten Carnosine and antioxidiants. On top of that I am so wealthy that at some point in future I can take beauty operation like is very common in South Korea even among men. Example more hair if getting bald, smooth skin etc. Anyway if you were legal age to play Dragon Age that would put you perhaps roughly into age bracket of 25-30 I guess... since 14 year is minimum legal age for DA1 and I guess you were not 20 when trying first CRPG.

I agree though that seems you have read datamining and discuss a bit to deep on some NPC:s. Everyone in forums are welcome does not matter when you might have started playing BG1 or BG2 long time ago or now recently or even if not played BG1 and BG2.

Agreed. The drow backstory is a step in the right direction, although they need to implement more negative reactions (like at Waukeen's Rest, for example). Hopefully they continue to expand on tags, and give the other races unique interactions.


I really like the system in DOS2, but I think BGIII loses a lot of its charm if they stray from the DnD ruleset. Solasta proves you can translate the gameplay to a computer game, and I have no reason to believe the same can't apply to BGIII given Larian's AAA budget for the project. Of course, I'm also a filthy comp pokemon player, so my opinion on gameplay probably shouldn't be trusted lol.


Thank you! I've been lurking for a while now, got the game for Christmas and have been obsessed ever since. And yes, you're correct, I'm in my mid-twenties, haha.

I agree that BG3 should be more near DnD ruleset.

Heh the only thing showing my age if you look at the the thread:
BG1 & BG2 worth it while waiting ?
You can see what kind of music that I like as example from year 2008-2012. Well and now when year 2020 I do not like most music I find them like average music and not very good.

I did only add 2 Videos of 2020. Other good tunes from 2020? Perhaps, but I liked those tunes most of year 2020.

You know I find most tunes from 2020 yawn average.