25:06 is when I start explaining why Nettie's dialogue boss works for me, and why Raphael's doesn't.
I wanted to drum up discussion about how BG3 handles it's dialogue boss battles, and dialogue options in regards to what they do right, and what they do wrong. I think Nettie, post patch 4 is fantastic, and brilliantly done, atleast from the perspective of a druid (I have not replayed it as a warlock, yet), but I think Raphael's is pretty terrible for the reasons I talked about in this video (I really lucked out when it came to them being in the same part, that wasn't intentional). Hopefully in a future patch/final game Raphael, and all the other dialogue bosses will be of the same quality as, or even better than Nettie's.
Nettie: She has essentially 3 different versions of her boss battle. One where you know what the bramble is, another where you don't know what the bramble is, and another where you let her poison you, and you need to talk her into giving you an antidote. All the pathways are interesting, and let you learn more about the overarching situation, and can end with you succeeding or failing to get what you need out of there. The instant conversation ender of attack Nettie is always present.
Raphael: You learn nothing new outside of the fact that Raphael exists for doing his dialogue boss battle (which is mandatory). The player's actions and dialogue responses do not determine anything about the flow or pace of the conversation. Nothing you do in the scene has any bearing on anything outside of companion approval.
In regards to the dialogue options in each scene, I and many others, found that the dialogue options have be lacking, and I've been editing in options as examples in my BG3 patch 4 critique series (part 4 onwards https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxWy16HPPmeH5KYFEBbO2o73hHpsCFj3F), that I think should be there. The problem with alot of BG3's dialogue options currently is that there isn't enough variance in tone and intent, at some points the game only gives two options to choose from (which hurts a players ability to roleplay), and sometimes all your dialogue options are terrible and not something a sensible person would say or do.
I've listen to the part you highlighted, and before I go any further I would like to ask you how you define a dialogue boss battle, and in light of that why you feel the Raphael scene qualifies for that?
Because, if I were to go by my own gut impression by the words "dialogue boss battle" themselves I would definitely agree that they fit the Nettie scene (which by the way I agree has improved with the new patch, even though I've also only played it again as Druid), but in my mind, while I'm not so sure about the Raphael one. A "boss battle", to me, is something that is a punctuation of a sentence or a tie on a thread. Nettie definitely fits that because even if it's only a short thread there's already been some lead up to it, she's been established as a character and a destination. But with the Raphael scene, that very much feels to me like that is the introduction, the lead up to something else down the road.
I've listen to the part you highlighted, and before I go any further I would like to ask you how you define a dialogue boss battle, and in light of that why you feel the Raphael scene qualifies for that?
Because, if I were to go by my own gut impression by the words "dialogue boss battle" themselves I would definitely agree that they fit the Nettie scene (which by the way I agree has improved with the new patch, even though I've also only played it again as Druid), but in my mind, while I'm not so sure about the Raphael one. A "boss battle", to me, is something that is a punctuation of a sentence or a tie on a thread. Nettie definitely fits that because even if it's only a short thread there's already been some lead up to it, she's been established as a character and a destination. But with the Raphael scene, that very much feels to me like that is the introduction, the lead up to something else down the road.
I was initially hesitate to call the Raphael scene a dialogue boss battle, because it has the structure and pacing of what I'd expect from a dialogue boss battle like Nettie or Atris. A dialogue boss battle, by my definition is an instance in a crpg where the player has a conversation with an antagonistic or hostile force, and the player's role is to navigate the dialogue chain for information, or to progress, and best the foe psychologically/mentally, rather than physically. A dialogue boss can be a character's introduction, which was the case for Atris in Kotor 2. The Raphael scene seems to be set up as a dialogue boss battle. It's a conversation with an antagonist force, Raphael, and his goal atleast in the way the scene is set up is to break the player's will, and there are dialogue options there that I'd expect to be in a dialogue boss. Why I was hesitant to call it one are that none of the player's dialogue options matter, or effect anything. Even if you try to give up, Raphael won't let you, and it makes the whole scene feel pointless, especially considering we gain no new information from it outside of the existence of Raphael's character. You cant even get this scene without trying a route to free yourself of the tadpole.
This is the 1st Atris dialogue boss that I keep referring to in my post for more context. In-case the time stamp doesn't work, dialogue boss starts at 19:20
As a counter example. Kagha's scene with Arabella is what is more of an establishing scene with latter on down the road. Raphael's scene has the gravitas and structure of a dialogue boss, but doesn't have any of the components necessary to make it good.
