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Joined: Oct 2020
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Thank you very much for your video, I appreciate the work and effort you put into it - and while I do not agree on all things, I certainly think that many things you bring up is important. As I do not use Reddit at all (GASP!), I'll post my feedback here. Regarding "The Premise" - It is true. Tav is pretty much a blank sheet - but this is very much intentional. User Drath Malorn made a great post about why it is important to have the "blank sheet" alternative HERE that explains that the blank playable character is necessary in order to make sure that there is no conflict between the Player's chosen past and the game. This said - I definitely agree with you that our past should matter in SOME way - we even select a past in the Character Creation, and this should be more than just an empty stat-stick. I replied more to the playable character vs. Origins in another post - I'll post my reply here under a spoiler tag (as it is rather long): Thank you very much for your text, OP! I also value story, immersion and character design more than the combat system itself. As long as the combat is playable, and the class fantasy feels "real" - then I'll be able to deal with most sorts of combat. And my third issue, please correct me here if I am wrong, I very much wish to be wrong.
I hate the origin characters. I love them as companions, but the idea of origin characters is terrible and I am stunned its being continued with, especially in BG.
I disliked them in D:OS and in my four playthroughs I never played as one, I started a fifth playthrough recently but cant get into it very much, that is simply because I do not enjoy playing as someone else in these types of games. You even say that this game is about us as players, yet almost without a doubt the optimal way to play it, the best way to experience the most of the story and get the most out of the plot and lore, is to play as someone else, the origin characters.
You used the tag system in D:OS and that meant that no matter what you did, you could only ever as yourself with the few "ordinary" tags the game gave us, while the origin characters had access to the same "ordinary" tags + their own. Meaning unless you played as one of them, you were missing out on new events, conversations reactions, possibly even more lore or backround and different approach to quests and such.
This is so in your face oppossite of what these games are about, and I understand, you do not have to play as an origin character the enjoy the game, but as a person who wants to see and do all there is to do, it FEELS SUBOPTIMAL, or like a wrong choice, to play as your own created character. That is simply unforgivable.
And given the amount of questions about this I am not alone in this feeling. To this day nobody can really answer the question of what you are missing out if you do not play as Origin character, but most people agree that it is better to play as one to get more story.
Unless this gets properly explained or changed, many players, including me will feel like we made the wrong choices when playing as "us" and that is a horrible feeling to have. Yes, you can enjoy their stories as companions and get full understanding off it, but you will always know that there is more to it, as it is you simply heard it, but if you play as Origin character you can experience it, as well as everything else that the player character can and experiecing the story is exactly what we, or at least I want.
Id say scrap Origin characters as playable, but obviously that wouldnt happen, especially not on a word of a random fan, its too far into development and its clearly and idea you as developers want to have in your games, given that you brough it over despite the questions asked about it in D:OS 2. But I beg you, give us a proper explanation of what you will get and what you will miss out in relation to their stories when playing as OC instead of Origin character and make the gap of missable content as minimal as possible.
Another option for this would be giving us an option to experience crucial moments in their companion quests as them, letting us essentially switch with them and play as them for a while during the duration of the quest, which would make it far easier to experience the content locked behind playing as them and still play as us, also it would reduce the amount of unneccessary replays to see all the points of view of all the companions. Or let us hear their thoughts through the tadpole and answer as them, something like that, just dont make us play as them. I am torn about this as well. And just like many said before me, I also felt slightly... Inferior to the origin characters in DOS2. I am very intrigued by the suggestion made above to allow us to choose a background instead of forcing the entire character upon us - but if they were to do it as detailed as the origin characters are, then chances are that it will possibly conflict with the details that the played has imagined for their character. I'll make up an example to emphasize my point (this are absolutely not in any way 100% consistent with the facts we know about Astarion, but as I want to avoid spoilers, I literally just made up a random scenario): Imagine that you're taking the Vampire Spawn-background (Astarion) and you meet this one NPC that Origin Astarion would know as... Uhhh, let's say he was feeding on that person, but was caught in the act. All fine and well for character Astarion... But when it comes to YOUR character with the Vampire Spawn background, in your head your character had a distinctive preference regarding whom you feed on - and this individual does not match the criteria at all. That would cause an awkward conflict for the player. Sure, it could be solved by something like: "[Lie] You're mistaken. We never met." Or "You're mistaken. We never met." (truthful, turning the plot into a mistake from the NPC's side) However, these kinds of solution would require a rather complicated tag-system and a huuuuuge chunk of content for the different possible scenarios. Short version: it would require a damn lot of work. The way I see it - most developers have to make a choice: either your background matters a lot, but it the choices and details are much more narrow. Or, you let the players be whoever they want to be and avoid involving their background too much in the present. (or you do it like Cyberpunk and just give the impression of going with option 1, but in reality you're going for option 2... No, I am not salty - why do you ask?) Personally, while I certainly am interest of the Origins being available as backgrounds as a concept rather than pre-made characters - I think BG3 is too far gone to implement it now. And there would also be complications regarding classes since these stories are *mooostly* tied to specific classes - like Wyll's story being a warlock story, Shadowheart's story being a cleric story and Gale's story being a wizard story etc... And a part of that we have the obvious issue of Lae's story being even more narrow as it is a githyanki story perspective... Basically, Larian would have to introduce a *whole ton* of proper origins backgrounds if it were to make a fair amount of options for everyone, if we use the current Origins as standards... Honestly, in the end I would be happy if they just made our backgrounds matter more than just being a stat stick. :[ 100% agree - I am a huge fan of DOS2 as well (but I am even more in love with PoE1/2 <3 ). Regaring Custom Character AMA Like I said in the section above this - of course custom characters will be inferior background-wise to Origins. That is the cost of freedom.  While I get what you're saying when you compared a skeleton wizard to Fane - I must say I understand why it is that way. Fane has an already established background - but why would they limit the Players options by removing options available to custom characters? That would make no sense! HOWEVER! When you choose Origin Characters, some NPCs will already be connected to your character in a way (like in DOS2) - this could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on which type of roleplayer you are. They could never assume backgrounds in a similar on a custom character without potentially ruin the Player's own customized background, unless (like in my SPOILER comment above), they grant the player the ability to decline to that path. If you want me to elaborate further, read my comment on Drath Malorn's post HERE. In short: I very much disagree that less chat options / people recognizing your character equals to worse story. I love being able to tailor my own story and play it out more like a blank sheet, beside the well-written "companions" and I would never play an origin character as my first choice just because they have more options or different experiences than the custom made character. Infact, when I played DOS2, one of the things I loved about it was how much my companion's story mattered to my own. They were not just following me, but had their own stories beside our mutual goal! I do *NOT* want to be forced to be "the chosen one" from the start, like the previous BG games (if I understood the talk correctly, I did not play them myself) and IF they would do something like that, I hope that they at least do it the same way DA:O did. Or possibly PoE - I absolutely adored the story of PoE1. But, mostly, I prefer the blank sheet - I am the kind of person that HATES restrictions in terms of backgrounds. I also do not agree on your statement that "There is nothing that our custom characters could have gotten that origin characters couldnt get either". 1) Drows, like you said earlier in the video. 2) Druids. 3) Githyanki 4) This is simply not true because their bound background comes with a cost - if one character knows your origin character from before, then you've already lost the experience from meeting the character from a blank sheet. I definitely am not very concerned about Larians way of handling this specific matter at all. What I *AM* concerned about is what Larian said about "the game recognizing you as a Baldurian" ( 9.38 in the clip) - please do not force that upon us. I am delighted to see them mentioning that your chosen background matters, BUT DON'T FORCE ME TO BE BALDURIAN! :[ Also, you make a great point when it comes to multiplayer and custom characters - and your concern regarding a full custom party when playing multiplayer is valid. I do, however, believe that it is at least to some point up to the players to... Yknow... Roleplay. :] But, as Larian decided to describe themselves as DMs, I'd assume they are planning on focusing on individual characters in multiplay in some way... Regaring What you believe must be done Amongst other things that I partly addressed above, you mention something specific. "Have the NPCs ask the characters about their past and let the game memorize your answers" - in the post I mentioned HERE I cover why this is difficult for Larian to do, while wanting to give the player a DnD session experience (where your character is TRULY custom made and not semi-custom made). Just like you said - having these types of conversations WHILE including all of the options that should be available to a roleplayer (lies, memory loss, hints, hesitation, honesty etc), including all this would make a VERY, VERY, VERY long list of possible conversation options. I am not even concerned about the amount of work alone, but the fuss it would cause for the player to scroll down a huge wall of text of different responses in these conversations. I'll quote my response from Drath Malorn's post in a spoiler tag (no spoilers included, just a lot of text): These are some pretty solid points and I do hope that Larians vision regarding the entire experience of the game will be something similar to what you envisioned here.
Since BG3 seems to focus mostly on FCC and OCs (because I assume that we won't be forced to be from BG at release...), it is a difficult middleground when it comes to "special screen time" since there really is nothing in current BG3 that resembles the OC prototype, and, like many have said before on these forums, it is rather sad that the player would miss out on a lot of special interactions without anything in return to make up for it when choosing FCC.
Anyways, I love your idea of creating tags as we go in the game. Obviously, having everything in Character Select would be a more traditional approach - but that might make the process tiring for those who create a lot of characters. I do believe that your suggestion of specific questions asked through-out the game would be an interesting solution.
HOWEVER, I do see one problem. Imagine if the player is roleplaying as a secretive character, which would include options to lie about origins. The dialogue option list would be... Long, to say the least:
"Where are you from?
- Baldur's Gate."
- [Lie] Baldur's Gate."
- Daggerford.
- [Lie] Daggerford"
Why is it important that the lines that are lies are marked separately? Because if we were to actually create tags in this conversation, having the character select a regular response with the intentions to lie would still result in the character gaining said tag. So, from a role playing perspective; my character lied when they said they are from Daggerford - but the game would still incorrectly register my character as someone from Daggerford unless they are specific options for lying.
Since the Sword Coast is a rather big place, and the West Faerûn is even bigger. staying within the region alone would require a lot of available responses to not limit the character immersion / roleplaying experience. Perhaps anything outside the Sword Coast would have to be labeled as "From outside the Sword Coast" or similar, leaving the tag a little more open for interpretation instead of specifying even further. So, with the Forgotten Realm's map in mind, I would assume that the safest action for Larian would be to establish at least the geographical background in Character Creation. Perhaps with a click-able map so players can click on certain regions to receive more information about the available locations in said region?
Edit: Or perhaps a solution would be that the conversation is multi-layered. Ex:
NPC: "Where are you from?"
- "West Faerûn."
- "North Faerûn."
- "South Faerûn."
- "East Faerûn."
- "The Underdark."
Or perhaps even more accurate by including ex. northeast, southwest, northwest locations. So let's say the character selects "West Faerûn".
"Ah, so you're not very far from home then, are you?"
- "Quite a bit away - I am from Evermeet..."
- "Indeed, I am from Baldur's Gate"
- "Not quite, I am from Moonshae Isles"
Etc, etc.
The biggest issue with this option is that unless the player already has a fair bit of knowledge of the geographical map of Faerûn - these options would only be tiring and confusing. Even if the game were to show information when certain keywords are mouseover'ed (like, let's say BATTLETECH), unavoidably, there'd be A LOT of text to read - which probably would break immersion off entirely for most players if this occurred in the middle of the game.
Soooo... Well. I believe the easiest options for all parts involved would be to include this kind of stuff in Character Selection. It would be fun to have small details added through-out the game though, like more specifics about your chosen previous occupation and/or other fun details - while always leaving a option for the player do "decline" these tags if they don't feel like it matches their character. Example:
At character creation you chose the background "Sailor". While at the Baldur's Gate harbor a man comes up to you.
"Heyyy, I recognize you! Did we not meet in Waterdeep a few years ago?"
- "Sorry, you've mistaken me for somebody else." (Nothing special happens - the NPC apologizes for the mistake and perhaps is left a bit puzzled. If they have a quest, then they ask you about it anyways)
- [Lie] "Sorry, you've mistaken me for somebody else." (opens for a deceptive roll check whenever he'll recognize you or not)
- "Maybe - I have done a fair share of sailing." (The sailor ponders, insisting that he recognizes you. The player gets a second chance to specify "Oh now I remember...", definitely decline "No, I dont think so" or just shrug, saying they don't know. Neutral dialogues open up for the two last options - friendly or hostile depending on what dialogue options the player chose to follow with)
- "Indeed we did, David. Good to see you!" (Opens friendly dialogue and some dialogue options for the player surrounding the specifics - like if they met at a bar, worked together or perhaps saved some cargo from some thieves."
- "Oh right, you were the sailor of <insert random ship name> - are you still mad about that incident?" (Opens hostile dialogue - also with options surrounding the specifics - perhaps the PC did some pickpocketing on him, perhaps they cheated him while playing cards or perhaps PC just made it off with a girl he fancied - idk)
- "We did, and I swore I'd give you a good beating if I ever found you again." (Also opens up a hostile dialogue - with available specifics like a more serious incidents - like the PC attempting to rob him, murder him or something generally evil. Like feeding him to some goblins?). - I agree. The player should not miss out on quality for not choosing a origin character. I do, however, not equal more voice options and alternative stories as better quality. I simply differ in opinion that one has a better experience playing origins than custom made - both in DOS2 and in BG3. While it is true that I sometimes felt inferior to my companions primarily in DOS2 - but I don't necessarily think it was in a bad way. I don't want to play with companions that follow me around like I am their supreme leader (unless that is what I am roleplaying...) - I want companions that are supposed to be my comrades in a DnD session. I want their stories to matter, I want their choices to matter - and I want to be included but not making decisions for them (*although, subtle influences like in PoE is fine, just dont have them letting me make their decisions for them*). I want us to be able to choose some kind of background that matters. I want us to have similar experiences that mirror what one felt while watching Ifan deal with the Wolves, or Fane converse with the other skeletons but with OUR characters in the spotlight. But I do *NOT* want to become a origin character with a forced background - there are actual origin characters for that. I am myself not sure at all how Larian could balance all of these things out, as it is so different from player to player. But I rather be a blank sheet than play a character with such a heavy background story and character so that I feel like I am playing a RPG like The Witcher 3 (not saying W3 aint a good game, cause it is - but I like custom characters and dread playing as premade characters...) Honestly, the only thing that *SEVERELY* worries me about what Larian has said is that we're going to be Baldurians. I hope they change their minds about that... Oh - and the humor in the video is great. <3 I laughed several times.
Last edited by Dez; 01/05/21 06:19 PM.
Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
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