Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Help Tips & Tricks Attack and save throws vs Spellcasting ability

Sorry if this has already been asked. I find the information in the tooltip for certain spells utterly confusing.

Example 1: Thunderwave.
Thunderwave gives us this line in the tooltip of the spell: "Attack/Save: Constitution".
I think I understand the save portion of it (that the target of the spell uses their constitution modifier for their saving throw), but I'm confused with why Attack is mentioned in there. Isn't the spellcasting ability for Thunderwave dependent on the overall spellcasting ability of the character you're playing ? e.g. intelligence for wizard, charisma for warlock? In that case, what does the "Attack" portion of that tooltip have to do with what is happening behind the scenes when you use this spell?

Example 2: Searing Smite.
I rolled a Zariel Tiefling as a fighter and they learn Searing Smite at lvl 3.
"Attack/Save: Melee Attack"
But then below "Spellcasting ability: Charisma"
So which is it ? If I increase my base Charisma to 16, will that make this spell more effective as a Zariel Tiefling Fighter?
Also, what does "Melee attack" mean in the context of a save?

Please educate me...

From the PHB, page 205.

So to use your example, you first have to manage a melee attack roll against the target's armour class in order to actually hit with the spell, and then the target gets to try their saving throw against your spellcaster DC in order to resist the spell.

In this case, the spellcasting ability is charisma, so the DC that the target has to make with its constitution save is 8 + your charisma modifier + your proficiency bonus. With 16 charisma and level 3, this means 8 + 3 +2 = 13. With 18 charisma, it would have been 14. At level 5, your proficiency modifier goes up to +3, but for now we're stuck at +2 proficiency modifier.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, that all makes sense to me. Never played D&D before so trying to learn the rules as I go .

I assume that the DC roll that the target makes is affected by their modifier for the attribute listed as the save, right ? So in the case of the first example, they would get a -1 to their save with 8 CON?

In the case of the second example, there's no ability listed apart from "melee attack". Does that mean they don't get a modifier ?

The simple answer, in regards to the game itself, is that the game display was not designed for, and is not equipped to handle accurate display of 5e spells at the moment.

The "attack/save:" field in a spell card in game just assumes that the spell will either be an attack roll, OR a saving throw, and does not account for spells that utilise both.

It's very hit and miss as to whether a particular spell card tells you anything else in regad to extra saves, and so on; some do, some don't, and in general, unless you already know the spells and abilities you're using, they are not, at present, very helpful for a new player.

For something like Searing Smite, for example: You make an attack roll to hit, and if you hit, the target should immediately take extra damage from the spell, without any further save (you checked against their AC with the attack roll)... so the game lists it as an attack roll spell. On subsequent turns, they get to make a save (A con save; this will be a roll, plus or minus their con modifier, and will add their proficiency bonus as well if they are proficient in con saves. From a player perspective, you generally won't know what saves a creature is proficient with, but you can make good guesses about their raw ability modifiers), to stop being on fire and avoid further on-going damage; that save will be against your DC, which for Tiefling racial spells is governed by your Charisma.

The issue right now is that the UI and display information they're using was not designed to play nice with 5e spells, or with them in mind at all, and it's not set up to properly convey their details in many cases. This will, it is to be hoped, improve somewhere down the line - but bringing up threads like this, and sending reports to Larian about your difficulties understanding, will help them get on the right track.

Agree. The informations une the tooltip are very confusing and nearly impossible to understand. Even when you know how spells works in DD5.

Thanks for your thoughts, and I agree, I think some of the tooltips could be improved (sneak attack doesn't update to 2D6 in the spell info for example even though the combat logs clearly indicates that the damage bonus goes from 1 to 2d6 after lvl3). I haven't thought about that subject in too many details apart from "wow this is confusing", but maybe I'll take a stab at proposing some clearer spell cards in another post.