Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback [Gameplay] Hide as a standard action

Larian,

I'm having a blast with patch 6. The level of passion for this project is awe-inspiring, so thank you for putting all this work into shaping up the game !

I have a ton of feedback in general (please make everburn blade sheathable :)), but to avoid diluting too much, I'll focus on the main thing: I'd like to see Hide become a standard action for all classes except for Rogue (via Cunning Action).

The reasons are very much the same as for the long-requested removal of advantage on high-ground and backstab: advantage is such a powerful mechanic in D&D that a quick way of getting advantage is almost always going to be prioritized over other actions. I'm specifically referring to casters and fighters here: given the relatively generous line-of-sight and vision cones in combat situations, it's still relatively easy to obtain advantage through positioning and hiding, which essentially makes the bonus action just a free almost-guaranteed advantage in most situations. From some loose estimations observed during gameplay, for fighters, that translates as a ~+20% chance to hit compared to no-hide, or ~+15% for casters. So with the exception of Shadowheart (usually like to use her BA for healing word or some such), most of my character's turns are: position outside of cone of vision, hide, then attack. This gameplay suits rogues very well, but not so much other classes.

Further, it's hard to say without having access to level 5 and up, but I expect the Fighter will become overpowered compared to the rogues at higher levels, since they will have access to additional actions while having the ability to hide for one of them. As Rogue is my favorite archetype, it's also a bit of a selfish attempt on my end to make rogue more useful (especially given that their lockpicking abilities are a dime a dozen these days).

Other forum members, I am curious to hear your thoughts. I haven't seen this topic raised quite as much as the infamous high-ground + backstab, so wondering if it's just me.

Thank you !

+1. Don't give class-specific features to all characters.
To clarify, because increased percentages-to-hit can confusingly mean one of two things, I believe that @OP is talking about absolute percentage.
E.g., a non-hidden fighter has a 70% chance to hit, but with Hidden-Advantage has a 91% chance to hit. Out of 100 blows, they'll hit 91-70=21 more times than they would otherwise (+21%).

Another way of phrasing this is using relative percentages.
E.g., a non-hidden fighter has a 70% chance to hit, but with Hidden-Advantage has a 91% chance to hit. Every attack is (91-70)/70=30% more likely to hit (1.3x multiplier), higher than the 21% bonus in the first example.

So if anything, OP is underestimating the effect of Hidden-Advantage. However,this isn't correct, at least how I'm understanding it. Being Hidden should only grant Advantage for a single attack, so it won't affect Fighters' Extra Attack. Whereas rogues, whose damage scales with a single (sneak) attack, can use Hide to great benefit. This should hold true regardless if Larian does the dumb implementation and gives fighters extra actions or implements RAW: extra attacks as part of AN attack action.

Thanks for the clarification, I was indeed talking about your first example !

Regarding Lvl 5 and up, I meant more in terms of raw damage output, and the need to mitigate this with chance-to-hit:
- a rogue with sneak attack will use their single action to deal (assuming hit and a standard shortsword) 1D6 + 3D6 + dex modifier at level 5 (granted, advantage will apply to all as it's all dealt in one blow).
- a fighter with 2 actions (assuming something like everburn blade or sword of tyr, disregarding the damage bonus) will deal 2D6 + 2D6 + 2D8 + 2*str modifier (with something like frightening attack).

The damage discrepancy is big enough without fighters having also an almost guaranteed advantage on one of these attacks. I don't mean to whine, I also enjoy fighters a lot, but I fear rogues will feel a bit underwhelming after level 5 in terms of raw gameplay experience.

Yes, please.

It's silly and exploitative you can circle behind someone in melee and "hide" before attacking them to always have Advantage. That one is silly even for Rogues. Same with ranged attacks, Hide is basically a free Advantage button you just press before attacking and it has nothing to do with actually hiding.

The "vision cones" should be 360 because hearing is also a thing against sneaking. A PC with -1 and Disadvantage in Stealth has no business sneaking behind everyone with a 100% success rate. Or at least add a hearing radius in addition to the vision cone, which really still should be 180 degrees wide.

+1

Hiding is really not an interresting mechanic in BG3.
It's too easy and completely unbalanced, both because it's a bonus action and because the vision cone is too small. As varangian said, it should be 360°, eventually with a different DC in front/behind.
Add the "turn based mode outside combat" mechanic and you'll realize how useless the stealth skill is.

A heavy armored fighter should not be able to sneak so easily behind anyone.

+1

I think there is value to a vision cone as it is implimented, but I do think there should be smaller hearing cone, so only characters strong in stealth were able to sneak to enemies - be it pickpocketing, stabbing from stealth etc.


I wonder if that change would favour ranged combat (it's so easy to go somewhere up high, attack&hide - if you end up hidden on your turn enemies won't come looking for you - and it wouldn't get impacted by "hearing range"). Like many actions powerful utility like that shouldn't be "extra", it should be main action.

Maybe just stealth check on pickpocketing/backstab? No advantage if you fail?

The ennemies reaction when they're attacked by a hidden character is another issue IMO.

They should always come closer and look all arround.
It make sense... When an arrow comes in your back, the archer is behind... When it comes on your right, the archer is obviously on your right.

As a result, depending your position you'll have one or two hidden turn then you'll enter the vision cone or the hearing area. Stealth check would then determine if you're still hidden or not.

On top of that, players could in exemple use 2 archers, one on the left and one on the right to disrupt ennemies and really play with a coherent stealth mechanic.

Completely agree.

I think the cone of vision debate is also worth having, but honestly, making hide a standard action is really just going to alter gameplay enough as it is, since now the drawback of receiving advantage is to sacrifice one action, which is really the kind of pay-off you should be considering for such a powerful mechanic (not to mention the fact you would now have to position yourself to ensure that the enemies don't see you on their turn. So not only are you sacrificing an action, you're not guaranteed to gain advantage the next turn, maybe the enemy gets lucky and sees you.).

I also think that Hide as a standard action will make Spells like "Invoke Duplicity" extremely valuable in combat situations, whereas right now it's just "meh" (never really understood the usefulness of the "Channel Divinity" slot that Shadowheart has except for this specific spell).

Hide needs to return to being a bonus action only for rogues (and Goblins if they make them playable.) Intelligent enemies should have some common sense and aim in the general vicinity of your position, if they cannot do this for some reason then they should try to take cover or retreat.

Something about the vision cones that annoys me is that enemies seem to be able to look up but we can't.

Been using a mod to change hide to a standard action, and I can confirm it has an enormous impact on gameplay. I finally see value in using dip now (I don't carry around a torch or a candle though, I use it occasionally when I can).