Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Maybe change the attack/save tooltip

So im sort of new to DND and I dont know all the basics yet and something that wasnt very obvious came across as confusing.

I was playing the arcane trickster and on Tashas Hideous Laughter the spell stated:

Attack/Save: Wisdom

Obviously this means the save will be based on their spell save dc + wisdom modifier, if im not wrong about that..
But I also assumed that my spell attack was also using my Wisdom modifier for my attack with that specific spell, since it explicitly states Attack/Save: Wisdom.
But from discussions with some people on it I learned that it uses the regular spell casting modifier for arcane trickster, which is intelligence.

The tooltip basically bamboozled me, and all this time ive been running Astarion with +1 extra into wisdom (14) to get what I thought would be a +2 extra attack to my tasha spell hit modifier.
For someone not too familiar with DND from before id say maybe the tooltip shouldnt include the word attack as it was just confusing to me.

Although I probably should have known considering spells that have attack/save: dexterity dont use my dex as spell casting modifier :P but now that I think about it you should prolly remove the attack tag from those spells too as that might confuse people to believe raising your dex is making those spells better

What the "Attack/Save: Wisdom" wording is trying to do is say whether the ability is an attack OR a save. E.g., If it's an attack, it would say "Attack/Save: Attack". So you're interpreting the category listing ("Attack/Save:") as the tag, whereas in reality the tag is "Wisdom" meaning the enemy makes a Wisdom Save.

But yes, this can obviously be confusing.

+1 for removing the category listing ("Attack/Save:") and just having the word "Attack" if it's an attack or "[ability] Saving Throw" if it requires an enemy ST. Possibly include modifiers such as "ranged or melee" and/or "spell." And the tutorial needs to be improved to better explain the rules of 5e.
This is incorrect, depending on what you mean by "their spell save dc." When you cast Saving Throw Spells, the enemy has to beat your spell save dc (8 + proficiency + [caster ability score modifier]), ~always calculated using the ability score associated with your class - intelligence in the Arcane Trickster's case. The enemy makes a saving throw: 1d20 + [ability modifier dependent on the spell] + [proficiency in that save if they have it] and compares it to your spell save DC.

So yes they add their wisdom modifier, but they add it to 1d20 (possibly + proficiency bonus) instead of their save DC.

oh, ok. Perfect example of how the wording of this stuff is confusing to us newbies! I think im starting to grasp it all then.
So weird that they dont just call it spell attack then? Considering its not added in any way to the defensive roll.

But I guess that one isnt on Larian

Edit: originally i thought I as the attacker rolled the 1d20 + my modifiers vs their spell save dc + modifiers. I guess the wording made it seem like spell save dc was like armorclass but for spells.

It absolutely is on Larian, I'm afraid... Other games communicate the required information perfectly well and clearly, but BG3 does not. The game currently does an abominable job of explaining these things to people not familiar with D&D - and it even does a pretty decent job of actively misleading those who are. Larian often seem like they are afraid to use words, or explain things, opting for reductionist tips that are so reduced as too be inaccurate or unintelligible... and I'm not really sure why.

So the basics:

When you make an attack, whether it's a melee weapon attack, a ranged attack, or a spell attack, you are 'making an attack'; the use of the word attack is what matters here, generally speaking. In these circumstances, You roll: a d20, plus your attack modifier (proficiency bonus and the ability modifier for the attack - strength or dex for melee weapon attacks, dex for ranged weapon attacks, and your spellcasting ability (Int/Cha/Wis determined by your class) for spell attacks. No matter what sort of attack it is, you're trying to met or beat your target's AC, which is a fixed value; the enemy does not make a roll for this.

When you force a Saving Throw, mostly the purview of spells, you are making the enemy respond to your action, not making an attack. In these circumstances, Your Target rolls: a d20, plus their saving throw bonus. The type of save is determined by WHAT you are doing to them... so if you are casting a fireball, the enemy can respond by trying to leap out of the way of take cover, and so the save that they make is a Dexterity saving throw. If you try to subtly charm them or influence their behaviour, they can try to resist the odd or uncharacteristic impulses, and they make a Wisdom Saving Throw. They add the ability modifier for the type of save they're making, and their proficiency bonus if they are proficient in that type of save.

In a few select cases, a spell might make an attack roll first, and then, if it hits, compel a saving throw from the target for an additional effect; these spells are relatively few in number but they exist.

Right now, Larian's system is incapable of communicating the information it needs to without some severe revisions, unfortunately, and many folks have reported this, so cross your fingers and hope it improves with the next update to magic and spellcasting.

Yup yup, spell save DC (difficulty class) is kind of the inverse of AC (armor class). Stated more concisely than my previous post:

For Saving Throw Spells, the attacker rolls nothing. Instead, the defender rolls 1d20+modifiers against the attacker's spell save DC, where the spell specifies which modifiers the defender uses. The attacker's spell save DC is almost always calculated using their main spellcasting ability.

For attack-roll-spells, the defender rolls nothing. Instead, the attacker rolls 1d20+modifiers against the defender's AC, similar to weapon attacks. The modifier used is ~always the spellcaster's main spellcasting ability.

ah, ok. I thought all spells rolled attack first, then did the saving-throw rolling after if it hit.