Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions Magic Systems

I was thinking, why do you get spells as you increase your levels? Or skills? What have you done to understand them? We have to imagine that as you gain experience you become wiser and are able to understand complex arcane arts.

Hm.

But why not base it on research? Like in other games like Civilization or any game that has technology trees?

Let's see. In Civilization you had different sorts of advances. Military, scientific and production oriented. So elemental magic, powers over matter are similar branches of a tree.

Yeah I can see that working. The player has to research spells or skills. Perhaps he can use experience points to research a new spell. The more he dedicates to research the faster he learns it. Perhaps a sort of allocation system, like in the UFO series of games. Takes time and money. Like in Syndicate. The more you spend the faster you get it.

A mage can research spells. A warrior can research weapons and how to make them and use them.

Well, you don't need a receipe book to create a new meal. Sure you read up or learn a few recepies, but then you can experiment and try out new things and combinations. You can apply the same to magic. Although I agree that a skill tree would be more appropriate.

In practical magics, while you can purchase spell books that detail the ingredients and rituals you need to cast things, there are also those books that describe what the base elements mean. By using these base elements, you can design your own spells tailored to your needs. Also, magic requires a lot of personal energy (like mana). By designing your own spell and putting all of that effort into it, it consequently puts more of "you" into it, incresing it's effect.

Very well said HandEFood. It would also be nice to have a slighlty larger choice of spells to be known per level.

if u were a mage u should be able to mix spells eg meteor stike with freeze - every time u hit something with meteor stike they should freeze depending on ur level.

In my eyes this would cause a balance issue if you could mix spells together.

I would like this experimentative magic - specially when the risk of backfiring increases.

Example: I use this freezing meteorstrike - as the monster has resistance against this -> my party gets the damage. In order to avoid this, "Know Creature" would be more vital.

Or I mix spells and lack the lvl/intelligence for this => strange side effects

Or, I enter an area of wild magic => spell effects turn into the opposite.

I think, this could be a way to avoid balance issues.
Kiya

I'd love to see that you could try spells/skills above your current level and the possible side efects... I believe that some high level spells could cause VERY interesting issues <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

-> Summon an efreet to kick some Cold-resistant nymph's [nocando]... see how he does so but turns against you after the job is done. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

-> Cast some Earth-related spell... may get too heavy and open a rift in the floor, forcing you to take another way in the dungeon. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Some of these could even lead to miniquests! Spells you may be forced to use at starters, since you are still low-level, release creatures (vampires, your evil shadow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" /> )that come against yo later in the game.

So many possibilities... I want more <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

A sort of magic class room would be nice - where you learn to know a "teacher" in form of a witch/mage with the unskilled dedication of Corinna the Summoner. A sort of tutorial for mixing spells, just so the gamer gets a hunch which possibilities she/he has - and the danger this has.

And this person pops up throughout the game when you try new combos.

Imagine: You're in the midst of a fight, you're in real trouble - this "Corinna" appears suddenly and blabs you full with all what you're doing wrong - how it should be done correctly - bringing you into more trouble.

Same could happen with a clumsy warrior teacher, when you try out new combat combos, lacking one skill or lvl etc - hitting your own party members.

Or a survivor teacher, telling you about the danger of creaking plate boots when you want to sneak or backstab - "displaying" what happens if you lack agility.

I think, these teachers could be permanent NPC, dreaded and feared, causing trouble and making the game not so easy (and a source for the Larian humour <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />).
Kiya

I'd like to see some more sorts of alchemism (right word ?).

For example adding a tomato to a strength potion what kind iof result could this be ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> I think it should be something funne, like getting red spots throughout the whole body while getting some kind of a strength bost. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Or a battery thrown into a magic potion (well, I don't think batteries should be there ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> ) - would perhaps give a boost to the "Energy cage". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

That's what I'd like to see : Some strange, even weird effects, that are generally positive but with some hilarious drawbacks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

with all these wonderful ideas, i really hope for a new & creative system for Divinity universe games. since Lar has mentioned of new & improved system for RRR, so let's hope it'll bring fun in tons for us gamers.

maybe your suggestions can be in for DD2. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

A balance issue can be avoided. You just need to work out the possible combinations. So you need to define the parameters of magic.

That means that you define magic more than it is being done now.

Magic, to me, is basically energy. A spell costs an x amount of energy. The amount of energy you have comes with training your 'magic muscle' so to say. A spell also is of a certain type. Those types are already defined in various games. E.g. area effect spells like Stinking Cloud or a fireball. There are spells to affect only one person, like Charm. Or spells that do something to yourself like boost your stats. I don't own an official rulebook but basically most spells are already defined and put into categories.

All a developper now has to do is find out which categories work best and which will not work together to mix 2 spells (or more) into one!

My idea is to make the categories and effects of a spell more formal. I mean making them strict rules so a computer can join 2 spells and work out the effect and a corresponding logical combination.
An example. If you mix fireball and Freeze you will get e.g. an explosion that also 'freezes' everyone in the area for an x amount of rounds/time. So what animation will be shown? The smart developpers have classified this already. You will see a the explosion but it doesn't die out. Before it dies out the fire will become ice before it melts away. The animated effect is connected to the categories themselves. I imagine that this way you do not need to animate every possible spell effect but use let's say layers of animation that can be put over eachother.

So which spells can be mixed and what the effects will be is up for debate. ut what interests me the most is that you should be able to combine thousands of spells all based on energy. As you gain experience you can allocate (this is optional, just a possibility) e.g. exp. points to boost your magical energy, that is, rather, the amount of energy you can channel.

I can see a screen with on the left a gauge of magical energy. This is your total, your max. Next to it are 5 different energies respresented by gauges. These are spiritual and the energies of the 4 elements. You can combine these energies, that is, mix them to be the carrier for magic. magic is the arcane arts. That means the wisdom and knowlegde and Intelligence you need to formulate a spell. So you ahve source, that is energy and the arcane art of understanding spells.

In the game you find spellbooks or scrolls. They can be used once like in Baldurs Gate or be written in your spellbook. Once in your spellbook you can select them in the afore mentioned screen. There will be slots for that. So you drag from your open spellbook a spell into a slot. A slider will give you access to your energy. You can increase the magical energy of that spell, means nothing but the effect a spell has. A fireball does x damage but that is its max. Now if you lower your energy there so it does less damage or decrease the area effect, you can have some enegy left for spell 2 that you drag into another slot. As you progress you can mix more spells. Above each slot are buttons. There will be a button for area effect. And a button for damage. And buttons for any other statistic of a spell (see the rulebooks).

The power of fireball can be tweaked. You can put emphasis on area of effect or choose for more damage in a smaller area. Thus you can make your own version of fireball. So let us say that a fireball uses 100 energy of the element fire. You want to enter sewers so you need more damage than area effect. So you click area effect button and decrease the number. Then you see the energy you have left, say 70. You click on the button for damage and increase it to the max. Voila, a custom made fireball spell. Now you can 'write to spellbook' and give it your name, like Vaipen's Fireball of the Sewers. The game will determine where to put it because it knows it is based on the element fire. here are these categories again!

Now spell 2. Let's say...Charm. so you dedicated 100 energy for your fireball maximising it and customising it in a 30 area and 70 damage customization. Charm would be in Spiritual energy category. So what do you get mixing these? say your fireball custom spell uses 80% of all your magical energy. The gauge shows it. So you have 20% left to alter Charm. The Charm facet will be much lesser in power. So you drag Charm to slot 2 and click on area and put it at the same area size as fireball so every creature in the firbeall effect range will also be charmed. But you can tweak! What if your playing style is to target a creature and bot blast a fireball just between them? In that case you can put the area effect to a minimum which by default would mean that the spell in use will only target one creature,t he one closest to the centre of the blast. So put the slider to 1 or the lowest number. Then click the damage button, put it on full so the Charm effect will be put all on the creature.

So as you cans ee a spell can have all kinds of stats. I mentioned only 2. Area and damage.

it all is based on the categorioes of spells and the stats as you can read them in the manuals and rulebooks.

When you are done tweaking your spell you can click 'Write to Spellbook' and from then on you can use that spell.

What this system emulates is an arcane practisioner studying arace arts. He is limited by his ability to channel energy and as he learns more he can channel more energy, just like mana in DD. As he learns more he can combine more spells. in the end he may be so wise that he can mix spells of opposing schools/elements. perhaps there can be some danger to this, odd effects that people here have mentioned. backfiring e.g. As you gain experience spells become more stable with lesser chance of not working. i think the player must be allowed to make mistakes, i.e. the game must never show that a spell cannot work. let the player cast his spell in a crows of skeletons and see what happens if they realize a skeleton cannot be charmed and all have necklaces of Fire Warding. perhaps there is a chance of reverse effects, the Charm will be put on himself and the fireball just does what is is supposed to. Mixed blessing!

That all should be experience based. Some monsters using this system can really be made invulnerable to any spell save one! That can be a qayst thing even. You need to combine the right spell for this monsters.

You see, in other games you sometimes meet NPC's who speak of studying magic and they made this spell with this or that effect. it seems that THEY CAN really use their energy to create a uniwue spell with a spcific effect! So i thought why not the player? If NPC's can make a spell to water their plants, why can't the player?

So what is the hardest of this system? The animations? The spell definitions, that is, stats like what it exactly does? or the sheer number of possible combinations. if the max. number of mixable spells is 4... I suck with math. How many spells are there anyway? Minus the opposing elements... Should be many thousands!

I love to hear more about this! ideas? Suggestions?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Vaipen

Some additions to my latest post:

1: Quests. Person X needs a spell that does this, pays 100 gold for a copy.
2: Custom spells can be sold. Its power determines the cost as well as reputation and elements used in a spell and the combination of elements.
3: Shops sell stocks of paper that you need to write spell onto.

Note that magic is energy and that magic is instinctive. During battle you cannot be standing still reading a spellbook. Right now there are 2 ways. In DD you have mana and you rest when it is depleted. In Baldurs Gate you rest to prepare your spells.
But both systems are not really real. What spell you remember before sleep...and how does that work anyway, you learn as you sleep?...what spell do you need as you wander around town not knowing what mess you get into?
On the other hand, the mana system is similar to my system where you have just energy that depletes as you cast. Which is not to be mistaken for the 5 elemental energies you are able to use to create spells. The first is just your magical stamina, like mana. The second energies are the building blocks of spell energy and the categories of spells. The maximun water energy you can use depends on your level. And perhaps even how often you use water based magic. TGhis way you become a specialised mage.

4: To add to the spell system and make it more real you can add another factor which is a reagent of some type. Herbs and potions could be dragged into slots. A potion is like a spell and it has its effects like a spell. magical stones, amulets and any other special item could be used and sacrificed to create a spell. I don't see why it would not be possible with enough exp. levels to drag a sword or any weapon in a slot and add magical properties to it. perhaps this could be a special skill you need to learn or be granted by a master magical blacksmith.

I can see a Blade of the Floods that, when wielded, splashes water in the face of an enemy. Doing x water damage. So basically you write your spell and weapon combo to your spellbook.

The options are endless. You could even scarfice a weapon in the way that it will have 10 charges and then break and becomes unuseable.

Or why not make a sword that does electrical damage the amount of maximum energy at your disposal. One blow will deplete ALL your mana or magical energy but will also do tremendoes damge. it will also destroy the blade! handy in boss monster fights.

With this system near anything is possible, don't you think?

Anyone wanna make a game?

I like how you think! Behold Rage of Mages. I loved those 2 games! you increased your skills by going to a school. Int his case it was a simple system where you clicked what you wanted to boost and sacrificed the points for it you earned.

I am thinking that perhaps it is possible to allocate a percentage of your exp to study. So a monster that gets you 100 XP now gives you only 80% of that whilest the other 20% is sacrificed for studying. And the more you study the more you can do. yet if you are busy fighting with orcs or whatever you just pull the slider up because you want to collect all the juicy XP and boost your warrior side some more.

also, added to that why not make some foes' stats determine what the min and max experience range is. A boss monster will get ou a huge study bonus. So in a way XP is divided into the arcane study points and the warrior's expertise/weapon skill points.

Your idea about a teacher could really add to the game! perhaps not during battle but it can be an NPC that you meet on certain points in the game, to give tips and advice. Some kind of Lore Master, a starter of quests and an in game tooltip. Alos, documents shold be around like in DD with stories about alchemy etc so you can get hints aa to what you can combine.

Looking at your combination-spells. This was done in Septerra Core to some extent. You won "cards" through the game, each with it's own magical ability. You could use up to three cards in any one spell. Most combinations were legal, although some conflicting ones were banned (eg. Fire & Water, Fast & Slow).

Your idea could work if a lot of planning was put into the component spells. I would not include Charm as being charmed by a searing ball of fire doesn't make sense. What about a Hypnotism spell? Area Effect should be a spell of it's own. And combination magic should exponentially increase the amount of mana required to cast it. Some combinations (thinking in D&D terms):

Hypnotism = Charm
Hypnotism + Fire = Fire damage with no Reflex save (ie. can't dodge the attack)
Fire + Ice = Wall of steam (can't see through it)
Stun + Fire = Knocked out by blast
Fire + Blast (Area Effect) = Fire ball

These are just some of my thoughts. What other component spells could there be?

In Evil Islands, a certain amount of experience gained would be available to boost skills or attributes. There were independent skills (melee, archery, use/steal and three magic classes) where each successive point would increase the price of the next point for just that skill. There were also other skills (weapon expertise, health/stamina bonuses, etc) each with 3 levels, where every level purchased would greatly increase the experience required for all of the other levels/skills.

Spells could be customized, for a price. There were keystones which determined the basic spell type and effect, then runes which could be used to increase the effect, range, area or the number of targets (which should be used with an enemy/ally filter rune), and runes to decrease the amount of stamina required to cast the spell. Each keystone and rune had an associated complexity and stamina, which would limit the number (max 8) and combination of runes available, based on the character's intelligence and ability in the relevant magic system. There were item runes which would allow you to add a spell to equipment, up to its maximum complexity.
This procedure is fairly expensive, and doesn't lend itself well to too much experimentation. Armour doesn't get complex enough to support a spell until the second half of the game, and weapons not until the last quarter.

These are also intersting ways of daling with magic! I have not played both games.

Let me ask you, what is the best thing about magic in a game.

I'm not the right person to ask. I tend to play Warriors or other classes that prodominantly use passive skills.

The best thing about magic in games is that it is like complete fantasy. That sort of stuff can't be done in real life. It's a power trip. "I can defeat you before you even get near me. Muahahahahahahah!"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" /> Magic is a shortcut in the natural path from cause to effect. That's why it's so appealing to the people (as opposed to science, which insists in walking the full path between cause and effect).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" /> Any technology will be undistinguishable from magic if advanced enough to the people that see/suffer it.

The first is from Umberto Eco. The second from Robert Silverberg, if I'm not mistaken. They summarize quite well my thoughts in the matter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Magic lets you twist reality... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> 'nuff said!

I don't agree with that entirely. I think that science is a shortcut as well. Chemical fertiliser is an artificaial substance that increases the natural growth of plants. Cars are an incredably artifical device that is used to transport large quantities of material, something which is a completely un-natural act!

Magic, like science, is a way to influence nature into doing your cause. In fantasy, it is taken over-extreme with fireballs and spontanious cryostasis (Freeze), but that's all in fun!

My personal opinion:
1. Fun
2. Differs from reality
3. Fun
4. Visual effects are nice
5. Requires a bit of thinking and knowledge about effects, resistances, effectivity
6. Fun, did I mention it already?
7. Is the path back to my inner child (creativity, imagination, fantasy) - a harmless way to feel allmighty and doesn't interfere with RL ( revival of "magic thinking", development in child psychology)

That is, if magic is defined as neglecting science, reality and nature laws.

Kiya