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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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There's a lot of great discussion regarding the writing of our companions, but was anyone else disappointed with the writing and storytelling of the main plot in Baldur's Gate 3? While I generally disliked the Illithid/tadpole elements at the offset, I could at least keep them in the background and temper it all with the breadth of companion storylines and regional quests in Acts 1 and 2. Once we hit the end of Act 2, however, we get in rapid succession:
-Two utterly cringy cartoon villains arriving so late in the narrative that they almost feel tacked on.
-An unintentionally hilarious reveal of the Elder Brain plus Netherese Crown, which honestly had all the gravity of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from Ghostbusters.
-Another reveal that all of these machinations were orchestrated by three actual gods who needed these three supervillain schemers to control the Elder Brain, so that it in turn could control the public for...more Souls? Tribute? Free tacos?
-Another reveal that your Guardian is actually the Emperor, yet another Illithid who is holding long lost Githyanki royalty captive due to his ability to block the Elder Brain's mind control something something something.
-All of this superficially doled out by rapid fire wall-of-text exposition that seemed more designed to keep you from asking questions than actually receiving clarity.
Someone once said that suspension of disbelief is like an anti-gravity device; when it fails, it fails hard. I'm prepared to buy into a lot of fantastical elements and contrivances in this medium, but so much of this plot just felt goofy... I freely admit that I could have missed something in there, but by the time I got to the city, my dislike for the main story was such that I no longer felt interested in continuing on and seeing what happens next. I'm not sure if I will ever finish out the game, but since the RPG elements in Act 1 and 2 still have things to offer, I am currently going back and trying different classes and activities just to try and understand this whole 'Baldur's Gate' thing a little better. What did you think? Did the primary plot line work for you? Would you have done anything differently? Cheers.
Last edited by Levghilian; 17/12/23 03:21 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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You should be able to find plenty of threads on the plot holes and poor writing of both characters and the main story on the forums here, but yes, the TLDR is that it's pretty bad.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Its very bad. Thats why its so sad to see BG3 getting hyped up so much. It shows where the priorities of people today are.
Last edited by Ixal; 17/12/23 01:37 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2023
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I didn't read the spoiler because I haven't finished the game yet, but I've heard that the story is much better if you play Dark Urge, and much worse if you just play Custom.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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I didn't read the spoiler because I haven't finished the game yet, but I've heard that the story is much better if you play Dark Urge, and much worse if you just play Custom. It isn't You get some more plot points, and some more plot holes with it. It doesn't get better, just more.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I have lots to say on this topic but I'll be brief since there is a good chance that another forum timeout will eat my comments. The problem is this: Larian's own stats show that people want to play as a Tav or Durge and not as an origin character - but the Origin character stories are much better developed than Tav's. This is why people are happy to discuss the companion stories but less interested in the main plot. Tav's story is deeply flawed while the stories of Gale, Shadowheart and Astarian are well developed. That's why - when people talk about their Tav they focus on it's cosmetic features, not their personal journey, relationship to some archetype ect. The failure of the Tav's story shows up: In the moment when Orpheus is released from his bonds. This should be a great moment - Tav cuts the strings, the puppet master has been defeated, you are no longer dependent on the evil entity that has been manipulating you - but it's deeply flawed because:
a) the manipulator gets the good lines and Tav just sits there like a submissive, obedient, tongue-tied idiot
b) the victory is immediately taken away for reasons that don't satisfy.
"Thanks for freeing me but your efforts were in vain, someone needs to become a mindflayer because: thing"
Great job Larian, way to use the Lore. Netherese = big. It means powerful. It's ultra, maaan. It's an ultrabrain and stuff. Ultrabrains need mindflayers, everyone knows this
Tav only has two endings (yes Gale has a third but Tav can only get by using an exploit) The fact that the game only has two endings - do you destroy the brain or dominate it - is clear to most players but the Larian CEO seems be oblivious to this fact. The other choices - which mindflayer did you take with you, is Lae'zel happy or angry - are cosmetic.
It's a railroad - you are going to end the game with a mindflayer.
Okay, fine, the devs have made it clear that they were always going for the Jesus archetype. Do you sacrifice yourself for the world? But Tav's decision didn't feel tragic in the way that Gale's did. There's nothing leading up to it. Some deux ex machina determines that Tav needs a mindflayer.
Gale, on the other hand, gets to decide if he is going to destroy his body to save the world. And that decision? Gale's penultimate decision? That feels tragic, that's lore consistent, we have good foreshadowing for that moment.. In Gale's story Netherese means something more than "ultra" - the Netherese crown can only be countered by an equally powerful Netherese artifact - in Gale's story Netherese is not reduced to "big" In his story "Netherbrain" doesn't feel like some deux ex machina summoned by the devs.
But I don't want to play Gale's story. Or Lae'zel's. I want Tav to be presented with meaningful choices. And that's what's missing from the end game: meaningful choices. (i guess that wasn't that brief, was it? Let's see if it posts . . . )
Last edited by KillerRabbit; 17/12/23 07:25 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2020
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The writing is on the level of the first two Baldur's Gate games, possibly a bit better as it isn't completely drenched in ideas that were already hackneyed the first time Tolkien picked up a pen.
That doesn't make it good, but it doesn't need to be.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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I think Killerrabbit hit the nail on the head. The main story of BG3 is deeply flawed to the point of worthlessness. BG3 isn't a good story, it's a game with good stories in it. The story to me always felt like it didn't really care about my Tav. I have a hard time putting words to the phenomenon but it's like...Tav never really feels like a driving force in the game. It's all stuff just happening to us. I remember Swen talking about how we start as just a common adventurer but by the end we grow to become a hero and honestly... I don't feel that. It doesn't feel like our character grows or changes. It feels like we start off in a pretty static place and by the time we reach the city, we're not really changed. We're higher level, but that doesn't equate to any internal character development. I don't feel as though there's any arc there. I would compare that to the first Pillars of Eternity game. That game feels like our character actually goes through some kind of arc. Starting out ignorant and just a pilgrim, and learning more about the world and its true nature, learning more about ourselves and our past life and the nature of divinity itself. There's nothing like that in BG3.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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Some people complain that there's more discussion about companions and romances than the main plot, but the main plot is such bullshit I prefer to just ignore it.
Both Gortash and Orin would be better off without the brain and the stones.
I don't mind Tav not being connected to the story though. I find my character growth (for both Tav and Durge) in my interactions with the companions. Astarion ruined my first evil playthrough because I started being nice to him and ended up being nice to everyone else too.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2023
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I agree with the comments here. Ridiculous story and mediocre writing. Over-hyped and underwhelming.
To add to the pointless 'reveals' I would add Jaheira. It had been known for months if not a couple of years that she was in the game yet when you meet her at Last Light she has her back to you and does the head turn to reveal that it is <gasp> Jaheira.
@KillerRabbit - always type your posts in Notepad and paste the completed item into the thread.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2023
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I am one of those few who much prefer Origin characters over Tavs and so far Gale has been my favourite. But I'd also say that my great enjoyment from having him as a PC comes from the character himself and the interactions with the other companions. For example: Whenever the narration tells you Mystra would approve or disapprove of something, you can be certain that Astarion has either just tried to convince you of the exact opposite or will do so in a bit. It's not - or at least not just - the final decision that makes him interesting for me, but coming to terms with his issues along the way.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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The other choices - which mindflayer did you take with you, is Lae'zel happy or angry - are cosmetic.
It's a railroad - you are going to end the game with a mindflayer.
Okay, fine, the devs have made it clear that they were always going for the Jesus archetype. Do you sacrifice yourself for the world? But Tav's decision didn't feel tragic in the way that Gale's did. There's nothing leading up to it. Some deux ex machina determines that Tav needs a mindflayer. This railroad is my biggest gripe with the ending. I equate it with the obnoxious Starchild from Mass Effect 3. It's absolutely terrrible and there is indeed no lead up! It feels like a last minute asspull for some extra forced drama. No matter what you did in the past, how hard you tried to avoid this outcome, how many allies you gathered, how many tricks you had up your sleave, doesn't matter that you might have had a friendly and helpful mind flayer in the city and a ring to shield it from the brain or freed the psionic master who should have been able to help you out without any sacrifice (you have to go to a literal hell, obtain a powerful weapon and kill Raphael to even get to him - it really cheapens that path and makes you look dumb for even bothering), you're suddenly presented with this specific set of choices and either you go for it or your whole journey gets invalidated and it's a game over. This is the only time where I reloaded and metagamed out of frustration to put a throwaway character (Karlach) in my party to have an ending I could actually enjoy.
Besides, what kind of Jesus ending nonsense explanation is this, when the default option is simply going with whatever the Emperor tells you to do and trusting him, like you've had to throughout the majority of the game. You actually have to go out of your way and suggest becoming a mind flayer yourself to become this martyr figure. Things only get complicated if you care about the githyanki race and Lae'zel so the sacrifice is actually for them, not even for the people of Faerun.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Act OneGuardian: Hi, I'm your guardian.
Tav: Who are you?
Guardian: That's not important. We're friends.
Tav: Okay, friend. Tell me about something.
Guardian: I'm so glad we're friends!
Tav: Yeah, fine, whatever. But, what's up with the thing?
Guardian: We're totes besties!
Tav: Skip dialogue.
Tav: Dang, I rolled a one.
Guardian: TRY SOMETHING ELSE!
Tav: Shut up.
Guardian: Don't go to the Githyanki.
Tav: Uh, yes I will.
Guardian: Don't go to the Githyanki.
Tav: Uh, yes I will.
Guardian: DON"T DO IT!
Tav: Die, tadpole scum.
Guardian: Whohee, I tricked you! Bye.
Tav: Okay, bye.
Guardian: I'm glad you came to your senses. Emperor: You are so brave, I'm gl;ad we're totes besties.
Tav: Did you forget I stabbed you?
Emperor: I don't know what you're talking about. I'm gonna take a break while you do shadow stuff.
Tav: Thank the gods.
Emperor: Look, it's me the Guardian! With tentacles on my face! We're totes besties! Fight these Gith!
Tav: Why?
Emperor: They're trying to break out Orpheus!
Tav: Yeah, but don't they need some special McGuffin for that or something? Can they just punch the magic glass? Does that work?
Emperor: Fight the Gith, we are totes besties!
Game: Okay, we're two thirds through the game. It is now totally the time to make a decision. Side with Emperor or Githyanki?
Tav: GITHYANKI!
Game: Okay, we're two thirds through the game. It is now totally the time to make a decision. Side with Emperor or Githyanki?
Tav: Githyanki?
Game: Okay, we're two thirds through the game. It is now totally the time to make a decision. Side with Emperor or Githyanki?
Tav: Fine. Emperor. Dammit.
Emperor: Yay! We're totes besties!
Tav: Skip Dialogue. Emperor: You should totally check out my soup recipe.
Tav: Why?
Emperor: It's what Totes Besties do!
Tav: Fine, whatever.
Emperor: You know why we're totes besties?
Tav: You're going to tell me, aren't you?
Emperor: Because I don't mind control you like my old friends!
Emperor: Yeah, I killed the good dragon.
Tav: Dammit, why?
Emperor: He doesn't like Mind Flayers.
Tav: NOBODY DOES!
Emperor: And I also am Balduran, but we'll never mention that ever again, because that really makes no sense.
Tav: Oh, ffs. Skip Dialogue.
Emperor: Hey. Let's dream-bang. I already have my shirt off.
Tav: WTF, NO..
Emperor: There's an achievement.....
Tav: GTFO. No bears, no squids, leave me alone.
Emperor: YOU ARE MY SLAVE, MORTAL
Tav: I'm gonna kill you.
Emperor: I want freedom for me and oppose the Grand Design!
Orpheus: I want freedom for my people, oppose the Grand Design!
Emperor: No, don't side with that guy, he's a Githyanki, he hates Illithid!
Tav: Yeah but, look....
Emperor: He will kill you!
Tav: He might not!
Emperor: Then I will join the Grand Design!
Tav: Huh? Why? Just, wait and see what he says.
Emperor: No! You are stupid and I want to be with my Mind Flayer buddies now!
Tav: Draw steel, squid.
Emperor: Whoopsie, nope, gonna portal out now.
Orpheus: *Why didn't you free me sooner?*
Tav: Oh, ffs. *THE GAME WOULDN'T LET ME*
Orpheus: You made all the wrong decisions!
Tav: I KNOW!
Orpheus: Oh well. Too bad we don't have a Mind Flayer.
Tav: I don't care anymore. Just let me fight stuff now.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Emperor: You should totally check out my soup recipe. My personal favorite. A very "powerful" moment as Adam Smith would call it (reaching a unhealthy level of sarcasm, should probably take a brake...)
- You are one of us now. - Yes, I suppose I am.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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Emperor: I want freedom for me and oppose the Grand Design!
Orpheus: I want freedom for my people, oppose the Grand Design!
Emperor: No, don't side with that guy, he's a Githyanki, he hates Illithid!
Tav: Yeah but, look....
Emperor: He will kill you!
Tav: He might not!
Emperor: Then I will join the Grand Design!
Tav: Huh? Why? Just, wait and see what he says.
Emperor: No! You are stupid and I want to be with my Mind Flayer buddies now!
Tav: Draw steel, squid.
Emperor: Whoopsie, nope, gonna portal out now.
The other hilarious interpretation of this scene I saw on YT is, quote: Emperor: "Trust me bro."
Tav: "Alright bro, but trust me too."
Emperor: "Aight bro, it was good but I gotta bounce." Orpheus: *Why didn't you free me sooner?*
Tav: Oh, ffs. *THE GAME WOULDN'T LET ME*
Orpheus: You made all the wrong decisions!
Tav: I KNOW! This is exactly what I wanted to tell him. Orpheus: Oh well. Too bad we don't have a Mind Flayer.
Tav: I don't care anymore. Just let me fight stuff now. Seriously, why can't we have the discussion who gets the short end of the stick with all of our companions and not just with the current party? Why are they even sitting at camp it this situation? Do they have more important things to do there? Ridiculous.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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Right on, @KillerRabbit, as usual. The complete irrelevance of the player's custom PC to the main story makes the main story completely pointless.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Dec 2023
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I was going to make this exact thread about the story and its inconsistencies that I’ve been painstakingly noting through my playthroughs, but I’m not even close to finishing the list on account of there being so many. Why are there so many! EA had ideas that were executed way better in some instances and made more sense for the characters just to be cut from the storyline.
My first time ever playing was with a regular tav, as recommended by the devs, and I always felt irrelevant to the story, like I was just some guy, no personal struggles or background to help shape my decisions. Sure there are some special class dialogue choices, but that’s about as far is it gets to being personalized for a tav that isn’t a durge. Overall, it just felt empty and that I don’t belong here with this group of companions who have some tie to the main story (which at this point I'm not even sure what it is). Everyone else was suffering except for my character (non durge), and I don’t get a chance to have an arc. Certainly doesn’t help that they barely talk so on top of everything I feel no connection to my tav.
I find myself playing origin stories more than my own custom character because of this. I’d like to agree on the notion that the origin characters stories are a lot more developed than tavs, but that’s unfortunately not true. There are still so many inconsistencies and moments that are out of character that it breaks the immersion.
Another issue is how they’re adding in huge plot points and changes to the story through PATCHES. The story now is slightly different to when I first played it (like act 2 in Last Light Inn with Mol & Raphael, possibly making Minthara recruitable in a good playthrough, etc) and it definitely makes it harder for me to sit down and enjoy the story if canon is being changed every so often. What I believed back then to be true in the story is not the case now. What’s the point of playing the game if it’s going to be different every time, when I’ve grown attached to a certain plot point and now it’s removed or modified? I appreciate the studios hard work and not charging us for these patches but I can’t help but feel this is unprofessional on their end. I’m putting the game down for now until they agree on a direction that makes sense and whenever they get done changing the story because this is leaving me confused and in a doozy.
I refuse to believe this is a product that Larian was proud in getting out the door. It’s clearly an unfinished game that they just recently added a semi satisfying epilogue to. I did hear about the financial struggles and crunch time, but it was under development for years. I see now that they have much more in store and that they’re correcting their mistakes but this feels like an Early Access Part 2 situation. Overall, the game is fun to play there’s no denying that. The companions are the most compelling part of the game and what keeps me coming back for more. But the story and missing pieces are not something I can ignore and I only wish they had more time to put together something more cohesive.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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But if a story-arc similar to the companions were added for the custom character, wouldn't that severely limit choices available for the creation ? It's clearly impossible to make a separate backstory for every possible combination of gender/race/classs/subclass and religion, while reusing the same story for a lawful halfling sorcerer or a drow priestess of Lolth would probably not work out either.
Last edited by ldo58; 18/12/23 04:47 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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I don't think that a backstory is required to give our Tav a story arc. They just need something more unique to hook them into the story that's different from the other characters. People get caught up on the idea that backstory is a requirement but it does not have to be. Like, what if the origins were all more limited in what they could do and what endings they could achieve, and only Tav could get access to all the endings we have now? Or what if Tav started out the story meeting a particular character unique to a Tav playthrough, some recurring character that we can have a unique relationship, whether positive or negative, with? Hell, maybe instead of the nonsensicle nautiloid kidnapping that opens the game, we can get kidnapped by a particular character who could be a recurring enemy for us, someone we as Tav could develop an arc based around our feelings toward. Just something to anchor us to the story. I'm currently replaying Pathfinder: Kingmaker. That game starts with us as just a random adventurer who answered a call put out for random adventurers. But implicitly, we're the ones always driving the story forward. We're there because we chose to be there, not because we're forced. We take responsibility for creating a barony, something our character chose. In BG3, we can choose a lot of little stuff, but our Tav doesn't actually get to drive the story ourselves. We're not the centre of the story, the story is just happening around us and to us, and we're just there to experience it.
And I feel the need to mention again that the opening sequence with the nautiloid really does get dumber the more you know and the more you think about it.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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Regarding the irrelevance of Tav, Durge would probably remedy that if their story wasn't so rushed.
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