Larian Studios

Got banned again from Steam for posting the below: just a critique of a badly written character, no mention of LGBT, woke, etc.

I will bring up what Steam mentioned to me about a Larian mod deleting the previous content and banning me, because it has happened again and this is a disgrace. Fictional characters are not immune to being criticised as rubbish in terms of writing.

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I’m going to keep this critique of the writing crisply neutral, with no mention of politics or sexuality.

There was a stealth-removal of the previous thread I’d created to critique this character’s laughable writing. Steam informed me it was a Larian employee who deleted it. I believe it was SaloAtLarian, as he appears to be the only one left after the other guy got fired.

What do you call companies who censor negative opinion of their product?

To prove the writing of this game is a dumpster-fire of amateurism, I don’t need to wheel out the usual canons people deploy against Larian (and don’t get deleted/banned for the firing shot).

But if merely proving Larian isn’t The Second Coming means automatic deletion, that’s a statement in itself that Larian will have to live with, if that’s the level we’re at now. Just as they had to live with the embarrassment of deleting the ‘cut content’ thread, and banning the dude that posted it.

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The Critique

This is an abbreviated version of the deleted thread:

1. Aylin spends 100 years in a hell dimension, tortured, killed repeatedly, and when she emerges is fully coherent and gets straight to talking shop with SH about the Shar crap as if it never happened

2. Trusts SH to be a vital ally in her personal war within seconds of SH going from wanting to kill her to throwing away the spear – no questioning of it, no pause for doubt, just one-dimensional acceptance. This is because the main plot needs to be forwarded along a predetermined path, and allowing the characters to surprise us via self-awareness would make their writing job moderately difficult. Reason? They’d have to accommodate natural, unexpected character development which is the tinder of good fiction

3. She’s presented as mentally stable – more or less – throughout all dialogues, despite her 100 year ordeal, and goes bonkers mad when desecrating Ketharic’s corpse. Random, repellent, teenage-angst-level hissy-fit. Could they not have thought of a more dignified way for her to express her ‘release’, with, I don’t know, words? She comes off as an animal, rather than someone you can respect

4. Comically florid, antisocial line: ‘Now, you will leave us. We must take succour in one another’s bodies and words’ in response to the MC’s innoccous remark that he’s ‘just going back to camp’. Appears out of the blue, is gratuitous and only inserted to heavy-handedly broadcast a particular ‘political message’, instead of organically adapting it into the natural flow of the narrative

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Aylin’s a god-child, so is immune to torture yada yada

Just to address this remark before it crops up again.

For those who don’t like opinion, there’s a technical term for this tripe called ‘deus ex machina’. It means using an event – or here a circumstance – to ‘magic away’ any responsibility to have to address a glaring plot hole, or otherwise inexplicable character development.

Either way, it’s the most succinctly boring approach to writing her reaction to the 100-year ordeal, because the whole thing is made out to be irrelevant. As in, why even include it in the story if it has no bearing on the character’s recovery?

She just shrugs it off. Who’s impressed by that – the Aylin fans? What have they contributed so far, because my recollection of the previous thread was that it was only insults and accusations that I was ‘obsessed with woke’.

Don’t even mention it in the critique. I could if I wanted to, and should be allowed to – everyone else does so here on Steam without repercussions – but I’m not going to give them even the scantest fodder.

To point #4: So you’re using “political message” as code for LGBTQIA+ representation? I love how Dame Aylin and Isobel interact, and Dame Aylin is one of my favorite characters. I really enjoy her indomitable attitude, her badassery, her passion AND her queerness. Would you say that it was “comically florid and antisocial” if a straight guy had spoken passionately about reuniting with his gal?

The dialogue option in question is ‘I’m heading back to camp’.

If a fellow straight dude responded ‘I’m about to bang the brains out of the girl beside me here’, I’d have the same reaction as I have to Dame Aylin.

As in, you’re an absolute unhinged lunatic.

In modern speak they call it ‘too much information’.

It’s bonkers.

Her sexuality is irrelevant to how absolutely mad this line of dialogue is. A substituted straight character would be equally repellent because it's so completely random and antisocial and gratuitous.

It’s just nuts.

How can you respect someone who advertises their sex life, out of the blue, when you’re just saying ‘I’m heading off to bed’?

It’s never implied either that she’s this crazily arrogant, because for the most part she seems normal enough.

Anyway, to be banned for one week for the above is even crazier than the Aylin writing. Whoever did that needs to be wheeled out to padded cell.

Most points can be explained by their divinity, in fact everything. She is direct, forgives quickly and doesn't actually have to fear death.

It's been a while, but here it is:

Everyone is allowed to critique this game, its story, its characters, and its writing. That's why we have a forum.

This forum is not for complaining about perceived political or social issues in media. If you have a problem with a character or narrative, keep it to the character or narrative, not the outside world.

Also, please maintain at least a minimum level of civility with each other. It is entirely possible to have a difficult conversation that avoids antagonism and stays respectful.

This is the only time I will say this in this thread.

Aylin and Isobel are among my favorite characters in the game. I have zero problems with how they're portrayed, and don't really see what is concluded above.

I quite enojoy her 'release' if you will, that's what a classic paladin ought to be to me. It's what you get when 'no mercy for the wicked' truly has meaning. Not everyone gets a redeeming talking down to. Luke Skywalker, Batman and The Punisher could all be paladins in that sense, but with different outlooks. Aylin is closer to The Punisher side of things.

Also, what Shadowheart does in releasing her is *HUGE*, and Aylin recognises and respects that. It's only fair that she does what she promises her. And fair, is pretty much how I'd sum her up in a single word.

Yes. And?

She's a essentially a demi-god. One that literally can recover from death. Are you implying that she should be mentally scarred?


It's almost like she knew the nature of Shadowheart's character because of the fact that she's the daughter of Shadowheart's goddess...

Not to mention her deep insight she has of her about critical moments in her past. Suggesting that she might at that point in time, know more about Shadowheart than Shadowheart knows about herself.


I dunno, I reckon most mentally stable people would still fall into a fit of rage when confronted by a person who tortured them for 100 years...

If anything, not having a reaction would be more indicative of mental instability.


Umm... I'm guessing you don't have many friends?

Since such a line is not out of the ordinary between friends. You might claim that it's a bit weird to be considering people you just met friends, but some people do just click pretty quickly. Given her brash, open nature, Aylin would likely form frienships quite fast (Much like Karlach)


Because it provides information to other parts of the story?

Her being captured for 100 years, highlights the extent of Ketheric Thorm's influence and puts into perspective when he went mad with grief over the loss of Isobel, threw away Selune and devoted himself to Myrkul to revive Isobel.

It highlights how long Aylin and Isobel have been apart, both thinking the other dead.

It shows the strength of her resolve, that she can not only endure that, but immediately agrees to continue fighting once it's over.

Honestly, the only major flaw with Aylin's writing is that she's essentially Karlach 2.0. Both are written in very similar ways. Just one's a Tiefling who's spent however long fighting demons in Avernus under the thumb of Zariel while the other's an Aasimar who spent 100 years having their lifeforce drained by Ketheric Thorm.

Mods: wasn't the guy banned for hateful messages? It looks like he just made a new account to spit out more hate.

Where did you see the hate here?

He was unbanned, it's probably not hate he's spreading, I didn't quite understand one thread and this one doesn't seem like that to me. Aylin is divine, thinking like a mortal is probably not right here.

Eh, my issue with her is that she's just an angelic punching bag. When she said "begone" I wish I could remind her how many times she would have been screwed without her immortality.

My biggest beef with Aylin is that like Mizora and Emperor, they're NPC's we're stuck with outside of certain scenes to end them. That's opposite of TT experience.

All I want from Aylin is for her to not be soul caged and otherwise begone. I don't want nor need any deux ex machina saviour. Oh, and SH needs some life-pointer, which somehow Aylin can't spare 2 seconds to relate.

I agree with OP that Aylin's mood goes up and down like a yo-yo; in the Shadowrealm she's wise and insightful, at Moonrise barbaric and lustful. I'm guessing they're just leaning hard into bombastic Greek deity archetype.

You're hardly "friends" with Aylin at that time. More like aquaintances. If an aquaintance said that to me, I'd get gone in a minute because I don't associate with people who are so insecure that they have to flagrantly display their sexuality.

Yeah, she's overly familiar with the TMI and about then is when I could see the writer.

It felt like I'm supposed to adore her and somehow be really invested, but by then it was damage done, all adding up to too much DMPC/Mary Sue.

Yeah, because being tortured over and over for 100 years would equal just slightly more than mentally scarred. If I was tortured like this for even 4 hours – killed over and over again – there would be nothing left of my sanity.

She goes through 100 years of this?

If you’re trying to explain it away with god thing, please refer to my comments re: ‘deus ex machina’.

Fantasy is considered thrash fiction, but doesn’t need to be. You’re basically endorsing a ‘no-effort’ approach to storytelling, because deus ex machina can bail out these very poor writers at any point. Maybe they should try and put in some effort instead?


It’s almost like this is more deus ex machina nonsense.

BG1 and BG2 had fantasy freaks who believably reacted to scenarios like this. So why are they all immune to believable reactions in BG3?

It’s because they don’t know how to write.


At the start you said she’s immune to 100 years of torture because she’s a god. But now you’re saying she’s not because…???


LOL – back at ya.

All of friends get plenty of sex. None of them talk about it, because it would be mental to walk into a pub and have your mate just suddenly launch into a lecture about how they banged the wife…

No one does that man – especially friends. My friends are getting non-stop sex because they are married, but they never mention it because they’re not freaking insane.

What are you even talking about here…

I think overall she is a great depiction of an Oath of Vengeance paladin. It makes sense for an oath of vengeance paladin to develop a psychotic revenge/punishment complex as a coping mechanism for trauma. Yeah, I don't know about number 4 though, is she socially awkward? I mean she kinda is from the way she talks.

The biggest problem I have with her isn't her character but the story she's involved in. She's the source of Ketheric's immortality yet somehow he wants her found? Well, Balthazar is the one draining her power for Ketheric so let's go find him. Oh nice, even Balthazar looking for her. Wait how is Ketheric immortal?

She's just another victim of the late rewrites

You see here we go…

I didn’t have the head space to think of these other plot holes, because nothing adds up with this character from the moment she’s introduced.

This is only this character – what about the naff Rapheal music/lyrics? Or the cheap 666 joke?

JFC.

There’s a devil thing in the BG1 expansion that a) looks absolutely nightmare-fuel; and b) is precisely that to fight it.

That’s genius.

The writers of this game should just stick to DOS games, and give an adult the reigns to write the BG games.

I absolutely hate what they did to this franchise.

As I said previously, even ID1 and ID2 had more narrative atmosphere than BG3, and they were basically ARPGs…all about the combat…

Yes, I recall feeling that the century of torture was way, waaaay over the top. I got the feeling that part was written by someone that did try to realise what a hundred years of torture would do to someone. I got the impression of the writer trying to exaggerate and thereby loosing all credibility ('well, my spaceship can fly at six times the speed of light'). In other words: bad, unthoughtful writing. Not the only example of that, in this game.

Well look at this – two people in a ‘consecutive row’ talking sense.

You’d nearly think there’s a point to be made about how naff the writing is in this game.

The Aylin stuff though is another level of dire. It’s so bad it needs its own game, where that particular writer just writes the whole lame lot of it. And we can just marvel how bad it can possibly get when you’ve no interest in narrative coherence.

Thing is, the writing in Cyperpunk and The Witcher is quite phenomenally good. By that I mean, I’ve read recent Man Booker winners who made me think less than the writers of these incredible games.

Larian should just hire CD Projekt Red to write even a DLC as a ‘POC’ and see what happens…

They’re very, very good writers – think one of their ex-writers wrote the excellent D4 narrative.

Anyway, I digress (I guess)…

I like Aylin a whole lot asa chararcter. I love her bombastic dialogue and think she's really cool. But I agree that the story around her, much like the story of the whole game simply makes very little sense. I think if she were transferred, character unchanged, into a story that made entire sense, she'd be just fine.