Larian Studios Forums General Chat Saddam is caught

Lynn...i think you should consider closing this thread before too many peoples feelings get hurt, you have done it in the past for much less reasons.i.e. talking about boozing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

[color:"yellow"] Yeah, it effectivly told the rest of humanity to not mess with the US.
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Are you serius? Little children were killed because US wanted to pass the message that nobody can mess with them?

And my comment was not to connect the two wars. It was about humanity. Which is what interests me the most. Not US.


Well done then. Nobody messes with you. You are strong, you have weapons, you have army. Stay happy.

Allow me to stay sad and express my opinion whenever I see people die all over the world no matter what. War is not solving anything and you know it. 9/11 should be a lesson. And I still cry for the people who died then. Because they were innocent and they were sacrificed for politics and games. If US external politics were different then perhaps those people would still be alive. And perhaps you don´t see the connection but please tell me one thing : How US is always messing in a war? Why all the problems must be solved in this way?

I am so sorry. Really.

that makes me cry, 1 the aren't much more fanatic than most Americans... 2 those who are uneducated are cheering for the americans, ever seen and educated iraqi jump and shoot his AK in joy? no those are neither backing saddam neither the US. They act in the interest of Iraq and Allah, those are the poeple in the opposition, attacking american targets. Those poeple aren't walking in pro-saddam marches.

The attacks on Americans in Iraq won't stop, in any case. And more and more people will be against American troops in Iraq, they just get butchered. Eventually you'll back out when enough money is spent on weapons and to much sons died.

[color:"yellow"] Yeah, it effectivly told the rest of humanity to not mess with the US.
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Are you serius? Little children were killed because US wanted to pass the message that nobody can mess with them?[/quote]

Like I said, I'm with you on the part that we shouldn't have dropped the bombs on civilians, so I don't see why we need to be debating this point if we agree.



Humanity? Why aren't you complaining about Saddam then as well? he wasn't exactly a humatiarian, you know.

Why aren't you complaining about Germany. Under Hitler they killed 6 million Jews.

That's right, because it's not the same Germany today as it was back in 1940s. Well, it's not the same Us as it was back in the 1940s either.

You can't attribute FDR's decisions to the US today anymore than you attribute Hitler's decisions to Germany today.


Well done then. Nobody messes with you. You are strong, you have weapons, you have army. Stay happy.

Allow me to stay sad and express my opinion whenever I see people die all over the world no matter what.

War has solved things before (Revolutionary war, anyone?) Like I said before, Freedom needs to be fought for because if a country is being oppressed by another country or its government, the opprosers aren't going to stop being oppressive if you send them then a nice letter written in Caligraphy on pretty papper that says:

"Dear Evil Regime:

Please stop being mean to us. It hurts our feelings and we just want to live happy and free.

Sincerely,

The Oppressed"

Tell me something, what other method, besides war, would have been an effective tool for ousting Saddam, or stopping Hitler or for the Thirteen Colonies to break from England. If some of these anti-war people can come up with a viable and realistic solution to win freedom and stop evil, I'll change my opinion, but so far all I've ever heard from anti-war people over the years is "War isn't the answer!"

And their right in that regard. War isn't the answer, it's the question. Sometimes the answer is Yes.



Yes, it was a lesson. It was a lesson that the world is full of evil people who are also cowards. I don't buy into this "If you'd just present a better image, then everyone would like you and all would be right with the world," As if the US is to blame there are terrorists in the world.

Terrorists have always been around, long before 9/11. The US is just responding on a grander scale than others because we have the means to do so.

Once again, if anyone has a better idea for stopping terrorism besides hunting them down, I'd love to hear it.

We had a pretty good image at that point in time already overall, but as the saying goes, "you can't please everyone all the time." Basically, there is always going to be someone who dislikes the US.




Um, no offense, but I don't understand your first question. As for the second question, I've already answered it, twice in fact.

People like Saddam will not give up power without a struggle. Granted people have died in the war on Iraq, but not anywhere near the amount of people that would be killed if Saddam stayed in office until he died of old age.



I'm sorry to. I'm sorry the world we live in has things like War and Hunger and Poverty and Curling. I wish we didn't, but we do, and we always will because that is human nature, and it will never change. It can change individually, but it will never change globally.

I divert my eyes and never look at this thread again (didn't reach much of it anyway)

This is a huge message for me to reply. So after reading it careful I have to post this :

1. I don´t like Sadam either. The same goes to him. Hitler the same. My thesis is that war is bad no matter what. Period. I don´t take sides.

2. I am sorry but I still believe that war is not solving problems. And I don´t think it is the same thing with revoloution (though many revoloutions were so violent that people lost their meaning).

I can´t agree that blood can make things better. I am sorry but we have different opinions and I will never agree that war and hurting people solve problems.

3. Freedom must be fought off. Yes I agree sometimes. So why Americans didn´t let us to fight and free our brothers in Cyprus? You know what happened down there or do I have to write it down? Turks have half of the island and this situation should be solved by us. To free a part of our country. To free our brothers. What´s America have to do with this?

4. We have terrorists here you know. But we didn´t make a war. We just arrested them and put them into prison for life.

5. My question is simple. I always see America messed in a war. And this fact makes me sceptical. How do you explain that? Why we don´t see any other country make so many wars? Is it more clear now?

Frienly and Peacefully
Lucretia

I don't mean to be rude and ignore your first two points, but I'm going to skip them because we've both posted a few times about those points and any frther discussion about it would just be repetition on both our parts and one of my biggest pet peeves is when people (myself included) repeat themselves.



To be honest, I don't think the US should be involved in every world conflict, either. From what you say, you guys should have been able to handle it alone, and you should have been left alone, but it's a different situation all together for Iraq. the only way the Iraqis had to free themselves from Saddam was death, a freedom Saddam regularly gave his people.



We have terrorists in our country, and we arrest them too without a war, but we can't exactly just go and pick up a terrorist like Osama Bin Laden, because he's not in our country. We need to hunt him and his cronies down. they will instigate violence against us as we search, so we have no other choice but to respond in kind.



Because America is one of the few countries that not only has the ability to to help other countries, but also the *will* to help other countries out. Despite popular global opinion, Americans are some of the most generous people out there who will gladly give a person the shirt of their back. This applies to a person in need or a country in need. Sometimes, in our effort to help out, we do too much, but the intentions are good. (For the record that old phrase "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" is completely moronic and I can't believe people actually think it's a good quote with some form of valid meaning.)

This is also why America is in such a large debt. We're constantly giving and giving and giving.

I want to thank you all for keeping this realatively civil. It has been a great debate and lynn there is no need to close this thread. Everyone has been polite. This has been a true discussion among friends. Those that agreed with me thank you, those that did not I respect your opinion though I may or may not understand it. I truly wish peace on the world, and though not happy to do so will meet and defeat those who would attempt to take people's freedom. Again thanks everyone.

never try this on a realism anti-terrorism based mod board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Look i'm going to summon my point is short sentences.

- Bush = <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
- Blair = <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
- Saddam = <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />
- war = <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

- Ghandi = Real intelligence, need more of his kind
- Most nations contra the iraq war = indifferent <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

- Iraq = poor bastards from one evil onto the other.

Yes, maybe Bush should have pulled a Ghandi and went on a hunger strike until Saddam bowed out of power.

That would have definitly been effective in getting rid of Saddam. Saddam hates to see people starve and suffer.

I'm sorry you think the US is evil, but we'll see in a few years down the road when Iraq is much better shape than it was with Saddam.

Drag, i think it would only be fair if you listed all 60 countries who contributed and named their leaders as Evil also, by the way , who are you...Mary bloody Poppins, practicaly perfect in every way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

«Because America is one of the few countries that not only has the ability to to help other countries, but also the *will* to help other countries out. Despite popular global opinion, Americans are some of the most generous people out there who will gladly give a person the shirt of their back. This applies to a person in need or a country in need. Sometimes, in our effort to help out, we do too much, but the intentions are good. (For the record that old phrase "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" is completely moronic and I can't believe people actually think it's a good quote with some form of valid meaning.)

This is also why America is in such a large debt. We're constantly giving and giving and giving. »

Mickey

What I am trying to say is that sometimes you offer your help but it is not wanted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is very nice of you but sometimes it is better not to use help it is offered. Like having a child that is learning to walk. If you constantly offer help and don´t leave it to make an efford, and fall down and get up again and finally find balance, then you do harm and not good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



[color:"yellow"]I want all of us who took part in this interesting conversation permit me to close up with a wish. I know that there is a thread for that but I find it more suitable here so please forgive me the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

I wish to all people all over the world, no matter sex, colour, race, nationality, etc to be happy, to have peace, to love children, to be healthy and strong. It is Christmas. Lets wish less suffering in this world. We are a powerful team in this forum. And even though we have different opinions we like each other and learn from each other so much. So I think that my wish will come true. We have a nice word here in Greece for people like me and it means people who walk on the clouds. Meaning that sometimes we are over optimistic but I believe in the power of all of you. I will always do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />[/color]

there is an angel in greece & her name is lucretia.

its so sad, apperently some of you don't believe in peace, you believe voilence can solve things? well it can but not on a global scale as a war.

We all know terrorists won't stop there actions because of sweettalk, but a war won't solve it either, on the contrary it only makes more enemies.

Correct, Mick. The German society went forward and learned that war is no solution, the American politics since that time changed, too - correct. I'm asking myself into which direction though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> - nope, I'm not asking myself, I'm stating this: My fist into your eye => violence and aggression as the "easiest" answer to eliminate problems. As Luc said before: archaic - I say uncivilised - as Faile said: makes both eyes blind - I say, destroying every ability to see something clearly with brain/reason and intelligence.
Kiya

And even Saddam's capture will not change anything, sorry. Hatred is a very strong drug and it's infected the whole Arabian world already - and it will spread. I recall/remember discussions of this kind on the old forum. At that time I said: Iraq will become America's new Vietnam trauma. And I'm meaning this: A crisis in your own country, among your own people, problems with national identity and pride. The gap is already there if I read US news. Don't ignore this, please: the rest of the world is watching closely and even those countries who didn't agree to this war are involved, specially all Western countries. And we will pay the price, if we wish to or not. This war is only one thing in my eyes: A fallback into destruction. (my opinion)
Kiya

[color:"yellow"]@to Spick and other "Booze" legend believers:[/color] The "booze" thread was closed due to LOW LEVEL language not due to the drinking there - please, stop spreading this misinfo (yeah, I know, you're not the only one stubbornly choosing to stick to that opinion). I don't know how often I had/have to repeat that correction - it's beginning to bug me a lot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

Edit again: In fact I don't agree to everything in this thread - but it's really civil IMO - passionate, yes. But war is not a tea party, this brings up emotions in pros/cons. And I believe, it's better to exchange controversional opinions than let them boil in silence <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
None of us has the whole truth in our hands, we can all only see a fragment of it (if it exists at all) - as long as we communciate we try to find a way to one another, correct?

You are right of course. The only problem is that most people who support(ed) the war in Iraq and the Bush administration mostly ignore almost all arguments. They just stick to the opinion that Saddam Hussein was such a bad man and that he had to be removed. And some of them even still think that there had to be a war because Iraq was linked to the 9/11 attacks. And that is very frustrating actually... you try to bring up various arguments why the Bush administration was wrong and why the situation now is not much better, but what happens? They accuse you of hating all US Americans. That is actually quite a ridiculous way of repeating and repeating everything again and again.

Just one comparison: In the 9/11 attacks, some 4000 or so people died. The war in Iraq killed more than 6000 civilians. What is better? Of course, the war in Iraq was for a good purpose, but there is a saying which goes like "The way to hell is paved with good intentions". And it is true.
Especially if you think of the fact that there were people - and not only idealistic dreamers like we are - who were convinced that the situation in Iraq could have been distressed without war within 6 months, including destroying most of Iraq's weapons and even preparing kind of elections there. Saddam even wanted to go to Exile and then he wouldn't have been in charge in Iraq either - without war. But diplomacy was sacrificed for the Bush administrations American global power strategies' sake. And that is what I blame Bush and his supporters for.

1. Elgi, the American history has a different approach to nationality and pride of being an American than we in Germany have. If the heart is involved, reason goes on holiday <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - for a while. Critics are growing massively, amount of Americans seeing the Iraq war with other eyes is growing, too. I don't know if electing another president then will change the damage that has happened now - I hope for it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> . And I'm hoping that the American society will eventually learn that war/violation/aggression is no solution on the long end, that the world Sheriff role of this country is over and that democracy only knows one level: Pares inter pares. And this is not the responsibility of an elected government solely, but something every individual has to learn. A society is the conglomerate of individuals, a government only "expresses" this spirit (or the demon)- in every country BTW.

2. Information policy in the USA is somewhat "isolated" to the pluralistic info policy in Europe. But differentiated info is slowly coming through there.

But, I agree, damage is already done - worldwide damage <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> - though I can't foresee how long/strong it will affect. In my angry/frustrated moments (yes, I have them) - I'd like either Germany to quit NATO/US or break off diplomatic contacts to the US government totally. It's even difficult in my case to lure reason back into my head then.
Kiya

I know that, kiya, but the pouint is not that someone who is a Bush supporter has to know other news, information, news, sources etc. The point is that they - sure, not all of them, but quite a lot - would not perceive any information disagreeing with their opinion even if it was hammered into their heads. If one participates in a discussion, one should at least read what others say and process the information given there. And that is not happening... at least not in a satisfying manner. In my opinion at least...

Yeah, I know, Elgi. An open ear/eye for brain arguments needs a calm head and distance... maybe time will help.

We've got the "Unverbesserlichen, Ewig-Gestrigen (incorrigibles/diehards)" in Germany also, hm? Think of all the Neo-Fascists we've got.

Nope, I'm not comparing these groups now - but the closed ear/eye approach is the same - same goes for the frustration I have then - same for my impulse to batter some sense into heads <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />.
Kiya <not always civilised>

americans, iraquis, russians, africans, there are evil persons all around the world, some of them do it in public(sadamm) and some of them do it underground(bush) Every goverment has some sort of proyect going on that is not supported by law, some people know it's true and some people of do not believe that. The point is that we know most of the goverments(if not all) are corrupted and the're will be worse things, it is in the bible, how can we fight this?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />