Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Help Tips & Tricks Sorcerers, Bards, and other not-quite-Wizards

The last time I played a D&D game with actual humans around an actual table, Sorcerers didn't exist and Bards were a "prestige" class (meaning you had to jump through hoops to play one). Thus, I never developed an intuition for either class. To me, both 5e classes seem to be "discount wizards with benefits," which suggests I'm missing something.

I got it in my head that I should try a Sorcerer playthrough (specifically Storm Sorcerer), but 4 levels in, I"m tempted to just re-roll Wizard, mainly for the wider spell selections (both in class spells and in the Wizard's ability to learn spells outside the class). I suspect I'd have a similar reaction to Bards, but I'm not yet tempted to play one yet (though, if I'm reading things correctly, it seems that Bards, at least, have some unique spells).

Anyway, before I get into old man ramble mode, I wouldn't mind getting different viewpoints on what 5e Sorcerers and Bards really are, and, specifically, why they're not just the "budget Wizards" that my brain insists they are.

Sorcerer is Wizard but with metamagic. What a Sorcerer lacks in their number of learned spells, they make up for with their ability to adjust spells with metamagics (You might be aware of metamagics being a optional feat for any caster in prior editions. In 5e only Sorcerer gets them)

Thus a Sorcerer can do things like twin a spell to cast it on 2 different targets, or haste a spell to cast it as a bonus action. Or even extend a cast to turn a melee touch spell into a ranged one allowing its safe usage.

Sorcerers are more adept at throwing out a lot of power in a short amount of time than any Wizard. Between things like Twinned Haste to speed up 2 party members, to double casting big powerful spells by hasting one into a bonus action. While a Wizard favours having access to more spells and the ability to swap out available spells at a moments notice.

As far as Bard goes, it's more of a Gish style class. That can mix in some physical attacks alongside their spells which tend to be more support orientated - Buffing aliies and debuffing or controlling enemies than outright damage. With exception of their Magical Secrets which allows them to access a spell from ANY other caster which can allow them to access some rather powerful damaging spells. They also get their class resource of Inspirations, which allows them to do things like give an ally a bonus on rolls, give an enemy a malus on rolls or turn them into potent attacks to use with melee or ranged weapons. Bards also get bonuses to their skills in the form of expertise, much like a Rogue and also has every single skill available as a class skill.

In both cases, Sorcerer and Bard also utilize CHR as their spell casting stat, which also means they excel at being a Face for the party (The one who talks to everyone and can use Persuasion, Intimidation and Performance skills to manipulate dialogues)

The way I see things the 5ed - or at least the one in BG3 - Sorcerer has many features which I'd associate with older editions' Wizards. Now it is them who have metamagic and can quicken and empower spells. I'd even say that they are more powerful than Wizards, albeit limited by the smaller number of spells they know. As you progress they get the capability to cast 2 spells per turn for 2-3 turn every Long Rest, something a Wizard needs to be Hastened (by Spell or Potion, and needs a nap afterward :P) to be able accomplish.

Bards come in two varieties (you choose at 3rd lvl) - the combat ones - Sword and Valour where you are spoiled for choice - cast a spell or use your two mellee/ranged attacks? The Lore bards are a powerful caster class - a similarly limited number of known spells, same as Sorceres and without the metamagic, but with more buffing/healing/crowd control spells, AND they get to pick spells from outside the Bard list at 6th and 10th lvls (I simply ADORE Hunger of Hadar for my Bard!). And with their extra Skills they are the party's Face, putting that high CHA to extra use.

One of the more powerful multiclass combos is a single level of Wizard - for the ability of learning spells from scrolls, and then going Sorcerer - for the Metamagic. In spite of being a 1st lvl Wizard you get to use your full Effective Spellcasting Level for casting, i.e. you can cast that 6th levl spell you learned from a scroll twice in a turn using your Sorcerer levels. You end up with your fixed number of Sorcerer spells, and c.4 slots for all those Wizard spells you learned.
One thing that I eludes me - I'm not that bright - is whether the Wizard spells are cast with CHA or INT. But you can dump-stat INT and then use the Ogre Circlet of Intelligence (17 INT).

EDIT: Heh, ninja'ed by Taril (who wrote it better, too!)

Are you asking about sorcerers and bards in 5e or in BG3? I'm asking because Larian changed multiple fundamental rules for spell casting compared to DnD 5e.

Wizard spells use INT and Wizard's number of spell slots are based on their INT

Which can make Wiz multiclasses a little awkward.

Either you go heavy CHR + INT at the cost of other stats (Like CON and DEX), lock yourself to the Headband of Intelligence (Setting you to 17 INT which means only a +3 modifier) or resign yourself to a handful of non-stat scaled spells learned using the Wizard class (Such as ritual spells like Longstrider, Feather Fall, Enhance Leap or utility spells like Shield, Knock, Misty Step, Mage Armour etc)

These methods can certainly all work, but you need to have a good idea of why you're jumping through these hoops when you could simply play a Sorcerer, Bard or Wizard as is (Or using some other potent multiclasses like SorLock, BardLock, Arcane Trickzard, Eldritch Knizard - All of which utilize the same casting stats between their classes)

No worries; the triangulation helps. I think I've been treating "Sorcery points" as a resource to hoard except in dire need. That, and my brain kept treating metamagics as "always on" passives. Both big mistakes, looking back on it.

A "Skaldic" bard could be fun, eventually, but I have a brain block there too. Given the "jack of all trades" nature of the class, I get mildly and irrationally angry that its spell progression is as extensive as Wizards. It feels like it should be more like Paladins or Rangers in that regard. Granted, I also get irrationally angry that 5e doesn't offer a non-spell Ranger variant, but that's a different issue altogether...

I feel for you - I learned 5ed/Larian homebrew with BG3, my knowledge being 2/3/3.5 editions from other games.
I share your opinion about Valour and Sword Bards - IMO these should drop down to being "half casters". And don't get me going on Paladins and Rangers NOT getting Cantrips ... but that's 5ed, not Larian.
I share the "reset at Long/Short Rest" abilities hoarding problem (this going for potions and scrolls too). I've been playing since early 2023 (EA) and only 2-3 months ago I began to go "all out" on the first 2-3 rounds of combat.
For my Bards I now often go two levels of Fighter and ten of Bard, accepting the loss of two spellcasting levels (ESL), but getting Action Surge which resets on Short rest, for the two Shatter/Fireballs/Call LIghtning/etc. on 1st round of an encounter. I also love to put them in Heavy Armour for that Darth Vader/Sarevok feel.
Which gets us to Wizards and Sorcerers in Heavy Armour - still can't fully wrap my mind around THAT. Feels wrong somehow :P

I have a feeling the word "or" is lacking after "DEX),".

Oops, completely missed this yesterday. BG3 mainly, but wouldn't mind some insight on 5e as well.

I think playing as a Draconic sorcerer is the easiest way to get into it. You get to choose a Dragon color with an associated element, which a feels a little bit like the Sorcerer version an oldschool Wizard choosing their specialist school. The bonus lvl1 spell from the lineage is mostly flavor, but the AC bonus from scales is pretty handy and you get a powerup at lvl 6 that makes your elemental damage more potent, flight at lvl 11, and some other Sorcerer perks along the way.

At lvl 4, distant spell, twinned spell and quicken are pretty good for Meta Magic taken in that order. I think they give the most bang for the buck. Distant spell is probably the most useful overall because it allows you to edgepan spell attacks and open fights outside of enemy range. Basically so you can kite the opponent around and force them to waste a turn closing the distance.

Otherwise if it's close quarters twinned spell or quicken for the double whammy. At lvl 4 stuff like Chromatic Orb or Ice Knife are good for twin spell. Distant spell works well for everything, especially AoE and CC spells or just burst damage to get the drop on the enemy. Depending on the difficulty chosen spells that have rays or missiles hurled from very far away can break the unbreakable buffs later on which is nice. It's also pretty helpful for dealing with enemy counterspells, since if you open with the distant meta you won't have to worry about that stuff as much.

Heighten is also very good during the endgame for stuff like Hold Person/Hold Monster to immobilize and crit. Wizard will always have more variety on offer with their expanded spell list, but the game changers are pretty much all there in terms of the Sorcerer spell list. I think it's nice for this game to build your list around your favorite concentration spells since they all compete with each other. For example, if you are building around Haste (pretty optimal for most of the game) then you'll want to have other direct attack spells to complement that, which aren't going to have you breaking Haste and going lethargic by accident. So like you might switch Cloud of Daggers for Haste at lvl 5, or set it up for Haste + Fireball or Ray of Fire upcasted, as opposed to say Haste + Fire Wall, where you'd have competing concentration spells. Replace spell at lvl up is pretty key for the class just to make sure you have a balance between concentration and direct attack type spells, a good summon or ritual/daily to round things out.

I think Sorcerer competes with Wizard for the top spot in terms of raw power at the level cap, least for the full casters. Clerics and Druids are comparable I think in terms of what they can bring to bear, but Bards and Warlocks are missing some of the more OP spells at the high end. You can get some of those spells from other means though, like from feats or scrolls so it's sort of a wash there. Flavorwise, playing as a Bard feels pretty novel next to the other casters cause you'll be strumming an instrument probably, whereas Wizards and Sorcerer kinda got the same vibe going on and identical kit for the most part.

The pitfall of the Wizard is always sorta the same here, with a bunch of known spells, but where I don't end up using half of them. Then you got Gale sorta stealing the spotlight as well, similar to Edwin in BG1/2 where it's just tough playing in his shadow. Sorcerer forces me to pick a focus, usually around 1 type of damage if doing the dragon thing, but if I run into problems with enemy resistances can always go back to the Chromatic orb in a pinch hehe. If you respec later on with Withers to make a different choice, the Dragon and Storm robe designs are harder to come by, whereas the Chaos robes with the sleeves you can pick up here and there by Act II. Just depends on the look you like most I guess.

ps. for the summons, you'll be reliant mostly on scrolls for that (another difference from the standard wizards, who get options there). It's good to pick up animate dead or summon elemental scrolls when you can for some cushion. If like me, you end up with a million scrolls in your wizard's backpack, you might have fun with the Sorcerer just cause it gives a reason to use them more often without feeling like you're breaking archetype too much. For bards same deal there, like you can just make that one of the sinks for the GP with the scroll purchases. There are a couple 'familiars' you can grab along the way. Scratch, Shovel and Us. I think Shovel is probably the most useful all around, just cause they can caste invisibility on themselves and run interference that way, forcing the enemy to look around searching while your mains do the dirty work. That one is a pretty early get, Blighted Village, but kinda easy to miss. Otherwise for the itemization it's a lot of the same equipment you'd want to be wearing on your wizard anyway, so not too tricky of a transition there if you're used to Wizards.

Here's the sorcerer spell list from the wiki in case you want to suss things out.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/List_of_Sorcerer_spells

Due to the limit on total know spells you're heavily incentivized to go for the most powerful spell at each level/tier prioritizing damage or CC. Some of the stuff that I'd usually grab as a Wizard for utility you'll often have to pass over, or count on picking it up somewhere else like from an item or a potion. Depends how you like to play, I almost always go with Chromatic Orb Magic Missile initially for damage type choices or just hitting targets that might be out of direct line of sight otherwise. Lvl 2 is tougher, depends on your playstyle, but probably cloud of daggers, or maybe shatter or ray of fire. Stuff like invisibility seems cool thematically, but if you can get something similar from a potion it's harder to justify. Haste I think would be the exception just because it's so powerful for pretty much the entire game, even with the nerf at higher difficulty levels it's a workhorse. Twin spell on that can be a bit of a double edged sword, high risk high reward type situation where you gotta hold concentration. I haven't found a great use for Extend spell, most spells that would use it already have a pretty lengthy duration (haste lasts 10 rounds already, so it's hard to imagine needing it for 20 rounds or whatever) also stuff like surfaces lasting twice as long can work against you. Careful spell seems ok, but similar to focusing on healing over damage, sorta like if you're already in the weeds and everyone is clustered sure, but probably too situational I think. I just get a lot more use out of distant, twin, quickened spell which seems to give more tactical options for how to open.

What you can do if the whole create sorcery point thing seems onerous, is to just eat a lvl 1 spell as soon as you wake up in the morning. Having the extra point at the ready will allow you to do another quickened spell back to back and that sort of stuff. You can do this on the fly, in combat, with a bonus action, but it's nice to bank something. Later on you can eat a few more lvl 1 spells and then go all ham with the meta magic without having to fret overmuch about running out of points. You do have the option to eat sorcery points to restore spells as well, but it's very expensive going that way, especially to restore higher level spellslots. Getting something similar from a potion of arcane cultivation usually seems better to me for the cost, there are a couple amulets that do the same. Unless your spellslots are totally spent, saving the points to quicken or twin, even for cantrips often seems better to me, especially with the damage bonus after lvl 6. Anyhow, not sure if it helps, but I think they're pretty fun.

I used to think Sorcerers were kinda lame, like when they were introduced in BG2 I never bothered hehe, but in BG3 it's my favorite class.

To add to the above - the Sorcerer is not alone (unless you solo). Utility spells can be dumped on Cleric or Bard.

I played a lore bard in BG3, and recently played a wild magic sorcerer at the tabletop; but I should point out I've never played a wizard. As I understand it both classes has fewer spells available, and they don't prepare spells daily so they always keep the same ones.

Sorcerer is really made by metamagic, which I used all the time. I think my main ones were Careful Spell (allows anyone I choose to auto-pass saves) and Distant Spell (doubles the distance, minimum 30ft). He cast a lot of distant Shocking Grasps. The sorcerer spell list is quite biased towards shooty damage spells, and limited in other areas.

Bard is more of a mixed class, so spellcasting is just one part of it with other abilities being quite separate, like bardic inspiration and the many extra skills. Bards are great all-rounder characters - maybe not as good a specialised class, but they can hold their own in a lot of areas. Mine was decent at pretty much anything except for combat, although she kept at the back enough that she was usually the only one unharmed after each battle. I noticed this after giving her the feat that lets you fully heal on a short rest.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned so far is the difference between those classes when it comes to roleplaying:
Wizards are scholars who learn about magic by reading magic texts and researching magic artifacts. Sorcerers on the other hand are simply naturally capable of doing magic even if they sometimes don't fully understand how their magic works (especially wild magic sorcerers). Bards are somewhere inbetween. They are talented when it comes to connecting the weave and music but they generally either go to a college or have a teacher to improve their magic.

When it comes to game mechanics, the bard doesn't really fit to the others. In my opinion a bard is closer to a cleric. Bards have less damage spells than wizards and sorcerers, but a number of buffs, debuffs and heals. Additionally they have some martial skill, so they can generally handle it when they end up in melee range of some enemies.

The main difference between sorcerers and wizards has already been mentioned multiple times: metamagic or knowing way more spells.
For those of you interessted in DnD 5e I'd like to point out a few things which Larian changed for BG3 compared to DnD:
In DnD a wizard can only change his prepared spells when he finishes a long rest. Combining that with the fact that you generally rest less in an actual DnD game, wizards are much less flexible than they are in BG3. Additionally they have to really think about their planed day when they decide if they are going to prepare situational spells like feather fall, enhance leap or invisibility.
A number of spells have been turned into ritual spells for BG3. Normally a wizard would have to prepare the spell and use a spell slot to cast detect thoughts, disguise self, enhance leap, feather fall or longstrider.
Learning new spells from a scroll takes time in DnD. So when you are in a dungeon and find that sweet "wall of fire" scroll, you better figure out a way to not get disturbed for 8h so you can learn and use that spell.
Metamagic has been altered aswell. In DnD all metamagic options unlock at the same level, so you can freely choose which combination you want to pick.
Distant spell in DnD doubles the range of a spell, instead of increasing it by just 50%. Considering that spell ranges in DnD are generally longer this allows you to cast spells from really far away (Fireball with distant spell has a range of 300ft in DnD).
Quickened spell in DnD doesn't allow you to cast 2 spells in one turn. If you cast any bonus action spell you can only use a cantrip or do something without magic as your action.
Empowered spell, which doesn't exist in BG3, allows you to reroll damage dice when you cast a spell and are unhappy with the result and can be used on top of other metamagic options.

I once read a learned article on the beginnings of DnD and Bard started off as a sub-class of ... Druid. Hence the legacy healings spells which look weird in an otherwise arcane caster class.

Posting a couple of links for some historical fun.

Original D&D Bards: OG Bards starting page 10
Advanced D&D Bards (1e): The Bards I grew up with (sorry for the ancient internet weirdness)

The connection to Druids was present in both forms, although the class morphed quite a bit (and still is, I guess). Too bad that the connection is no longer there - it was a nice bit of world-building.