Larian Studios Forums General Chat The Adorant

<sneaking into the wrestling room, taking a look around, counting crosses, taking out a measure band to find the correct size for wooden planks and whistling innocently, in a matter-of-fact-way>

[color:"yellow"]"Ok, anyone in for another nice coffin? Urns, memorials - with or without victory flags? Special sales, cut-down prices, home-made handicraft?[/color]

Kiya <cursing at her server, who gave up since 2 hrs>

Oh, I don't know; you conveniently ignored Alrik's urging me to translate something I've written into German. The connotation is just a leeeeetle bit... ah, I'll just not assign an adjective. *laughs* In any case, I believe you're splitting hairs. What Alrik said remains there; I was addressing him, and therefore it's perfectly valid.



So? What say you? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

[/quote]

English isn't my native language; I've met a number of writers whose mother tongue is not English, either, and they still write perfectly well. If one makes the effort, I don't see why one can't compose palatable prose. Moreover, no one held Alrik at gunpoint and forced him to translate, hmmm? If a wider audience was what he wanted, a wider audience is what he gets.

Ah yes, I see them => Fergus, the Torture master, Josie in full dress, the Black ring members - lemme see: Samuel is hiding in the dark corner (does he have a valid ticket? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> )Ahhh, Damian is holding his 2-hander axe - the warlocks are forming.
<rubbing her hands> Good business, very good business
Kiya <caretaker> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

Aww, Winterfox, do you have to prove the prejudice "females want the last word, are always right"? Do you realise how slim the path is between "I want to make a clear point" and "I want to win at any cost"? Please, reconsider your motives - they reveal a lot about yourself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

Eh. Faralas is female, I thought? Besides, it's turning into a ping-pong match, and -- as I've said -- it takes two to keep the game going. Psychoanalyze me as you will, though.

Ah, so English is not your native language. Well, my humblest of apologies then. That explains a lot.

Yes, you are absolutely 100% correct that Alrik asked you to take a stab at translating one of your pieces into German [in the message I've been referring to]. HOWEVER, underneath that message he also left a response to your reply regarding the act of translation, in general. That's the paragraph you neglected to answer [until now]. But, since you're native tongue is not English, I will cut you some slack. And from now on I will take into consideration that English is also your second, third or forty-fifth language.

*rolls eyes and tries to stifle laugh*


Nope! Can't do it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> ROFLMAO - You are something else! And I don't mean that in a derogatory sense. WF, your ability to polarize people and message boards is absolutely astounding. You'll make a wonderful politician some day. But for now, you're an amusing study on human behavior.


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" /> Who is leaving the Romper Room for the great out doors. It's too nice a day to spend chained to my computer. I'll go chain myself to a tree. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Well, my own problem is, that I can translate into English - and German is my natural language.

This is the point : Translate something from your first language (the natural one [although in Belgium this could be difficult <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> ] ) into the second. Then watch how the people react towards your translation and compare this reaction with reactions you get with the same story, but in your first language.
If possible, even with the same audience.

The problem is, that I do not know the first language of many forummembers here as my own first language, so unfortunately I can *never* be in the situation / place to be able to do / perform the above described thing.

Which leads me to the thought that people who do not know my own first language as their first language are unfortunately never be able to do / perform the above described thing. And therefore not be able to tell what actually *was* lost / distorted during a translation.

What might sound silly or weak might be better formulated in the own natural language, but be lost during the translation process because of lack of words, simply. I must live for several years now to be able to properly translate into English.

It's really an interesting experience for me.


By the way, I think I mzust point this out :



I never sdaid I could "write perfectly well". I'm just content with my English and thought it would be good enough for a greater audience.
You've proved me otherwise, Winterfox. You've won. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />



By the way, I'm currently browsing through an interesting discussion :

Feedback : The good, the bad, and the ugly.


Honesty is the best policy : Constructive Criticism

And as an addition my reply to the first thread :

In a spirit of general helpfulness to all fic writers, and in the hope that they might be of use or interest to someone, my writing partner and I have been working on a number of guides to various aspects of writing technique for some time now.

Basically it's just the rules we use, and is obviously slanted towards the kind of stories we write, so not all of it will be useful to everyone.

That being said, for anyone who is interested in knowing how I actually go about writing things, the guides can be found here

Some of you guys may find them useful - or you may find them too basic for words <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Either way, if anyone gains anything useful from them, there will be a point to my making this post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No, we aren't that great, and we aren't pretending to be, but sharing knowledge can never be a bad thing, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: You'll have to scroll down the page a bit, annoyingly. The writer notes are beneath the story FAQs. Sorry about that...

Is that supposed to drive me into a berserk rage or something?

In any case -- a politician, hey, why not? If you're a politician, and sufficiently famous, just about anything you write -- no matter how pretentious or crappy -- will get published and make bestseller lists. *snerk* (The same goes for any celebrity, actually. Ever read The English Roses by Madonna?)

Not to the story itself, but to the intention this story has (and maybe to the writer). The story remains what it was originally.

If a critic decides to leave out one part in his/her review, it doesn't say much about the story - it says FAR more about the critic: his/her priorities, fears, blockades etc.

If a critic decides to reveal these totally subjective points on purpose, it's ok. If a critic is so vain, conceited and self-righteous to raise his/her points up to an objective pseudo-axiom => it's plain embarrassing, non-professional and injust towards the story (and the writer). And here's the point where I, the reader of this critic, butts in and shakes my head in disbelief about this self-blindness and lacking self-reflection. I can't take the critic seriously anymore.

Sadly, I have to read reviews in my job, day for day (23 yrs now) - so, I developed a "read-between-the-lines" technique, to find out more about the story I plan to buy/not and brush off the ego-critic's layers covering it up. Wish, some critics would be more self-aware.

And if this critic (so much in love with him-/herself) is writer, too - I'm in deep trouble due to my inner blockades then, my aggravation. In this case, I ask a neutral colleague to take over, hoping, she can do that story more justice and she is able value the novel (or not).

Kiya

Interesting thoughts, Kiya, thanks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is an interesting question. Let me first state that a good 'dissection' of any story does not and should not negate the emotional content. A good critiquer does not even comment on subject matter for that belongs to the sole discretion of the writer. If that particular subject matter is of no interest to the reviewer, that should be stated right up front. And, I usually inform a writer if their genre is not my cup of tea. However, that does not mean I still can't offer constructive criticism as to tone, point of view, characterization, dialogue, setting and plot. Those are the key elements which should be addressed when giving a good critique. Grammar issues should be resolved by the author. If the author does not have a basic familiarity with the rules of grammar, then they have no business claiming literary license. How can you break rules that you're not familiar with in the first place? At least that's my point of view.

I've discussed the art of giving a critique so many times that I've lost count. And every writer differs in their approach. Reading an author's work with an objective eye is difficult, imho. But it's something I have (in the past) forced myself to do because there is a lot to be learned in giving a critique. Also, there are some good websites online that have excellent information about what should go into a critique. I always try to temper the 'negative' with positive feedback. Otherwise, what's the point? No one learns anything by being told their work is lousy.

So, to answer your question, Alrik: Yes, it is disasterous in my humble opinion. The fact that the emotional aspects of a story are even separated from the whole is something that should not be done. You're not performing a root canal as a reviewer. You're reviewing a story and emotions play a huge part in storytelling. It would be like separating the components in water. There would be no H2O with out the (HH) and (O). LOL At least that's how I look at it.


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

Critical analysis is a very different skill to writing. But really, a good review, IMO, is not the same thing at all. A good review is about telling the reader why they should or should not read the story in the opinion of the review writer.

I honestly find my feelings a better guide in review writing than any kind of logical dissection of the author's skills.

Let's be honest, the world's greatest technical writer can still turn out a boring story, where a person with far less technical skill but far more imagination may turn out a story you can't put down...

There are occasions, though, where poor writing will turn you off no matter how brilliant the idea is. Query: give me an example of a story where the emotional aspects are truly separate from the logical ones? Is it a plot that hinges on every character being a bumbling buffoon? Is it a story that suspends disbelief so much, and at one point suspension of disbelief just falls down and shatters into tiny bits? (Everyone acts like a troglodyte with a mental handicap, the plot makes no sense, deus ex machina abounds, advancement of plot is unnatural and screams of "plot device!", the author is inconsistent with facts in his/her own writing, etc.)

If it's a question of technical aspects (grammar, punctuation, formatting, writing conventions) versus subjective aspects? Someone once said to me that a writer doesn't just write things down; the task of a writer is to arrange words so that meanings are conveyed, and things flow. IMO, technical aspects should not have any bearing on the author's sentiments concerning the emotions in his/her writing. If diction and technical aspects need improvement, the writer should be able to adapt and come up with a new combination of words, while still retaining the meanings he/she wanted to communicate in the first place. So no, I don't think dissecting technical aspects of a story hurts it at all.

Winterfox...

Have you never sat down and watched a film that was fun and entertaining and you really liked it - even though you knew it wasn't technically any good? Or listened to music where the singer was awful but you somehow like the song anyway?

Writing can be like that too. Sure it has to flow, but sometimes the flow doesn't come from perfect use of grammar - it comes from the flow of ideas.

Sometimes we all just like things because we do - no logic behind it at all. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I lovelovelove KotOR to bits, in spite of its various flaws. But I've also played many games where there are great ideas, but they just don't make it. Arcanum and ToEE are two such things for me; neither delivers well enough, executes well enough, to keep my interest even as I acknowledge that both have concepts with great potential. (Most of which is wasted.) Where did you get the idea that I'm a GrammarBot, anyway? Sure, I tore Alrik's writing apart, but that's because it's got blatant technical flaws. Take this. Skim through and you will find punctuation errors, even some your/you're confusion, and inconsistent units of measurement. Nevertheless, if you check out the review page, you'll see me giving purely fangirlish rave reviews.

Also, think of it this way: a language is made for communication, right? People who use the same language can comprehend each other, correct? Shouldn't you, then, communicate to the best of your ability if you wish to be understood?

I'm not attacking you, or Alrik, or anyone else, Winterfox <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just don't think it hurts to be at least a little gentle with each other, no? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not every writer writes for the same reason - and that is especially true of amateurs, such as all of us here are (With the notable exception of Rhianna, of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

You or I could doubtless rip each other's work to shreds, for example - but why would we want to? What would it achieve? Would either of us feel better for having done so? I know I wouldn't, and I doubt you would either.

Whether we could take the criticism or not, neither of us would be improved by it.

I myself try to help other writers improve through my 'how to' guides and helping them move forward one step at a time if they ask me for advice. I'm not a great writer myself by any means, but I like to think I am reasonably competent, and what I know I will happily share with others.

All writers, without exception, have room to improve - you know this as well as I do. But you did not reach your current standard (Which is pretty good, IMO) overnight, and neither does anyone else. Advancement is a slow and steady process, and none of us can absorb too much too soon.

We must all learn to walk before we can run, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Again - this is not an attack on you, Winterfox, merely some friendly advice, from one amateur writer to another <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My point is that, contrary to popular belief, I'm not that nitpicky. Coherent grammar should be standard-issue; I only ask for that, some remotely interesting ideas and a palatable execution of these ideas. See here and judge my critiques for yourself.



Actually, I consider my criticism of The Adorant relatively gentle. The initial post: no snark, no assumptions about author's intelligence/lack thereof, etc. I repeat: I attack the writing, not the writer. (Unless the character of the Adorant is an author avatar or something.)



Eh. If somebody took the time to rip my work to shreds, he/she would be doing me a favor.



Query: have you actually read my writing...?

Lastly -- let me put it this way: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. So don't worry, as there won't be a third time. When critiques are requested of me, I give them -- and it was requested the first time; it's a bit annoying when the author does nada with it except hide behind the "it's my style!" excuse. (Don't ask, unless you do it in PM.)

Winterfox...

I read the start of your elf-trapped-by-necromancer story to get an idea of your style and overall writing skills. Doesn't take long, as I'm sure you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not saying you're pretty good without even peeking, trust me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Edit: People asking for a critique don't always mean it, you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I always figure better safe than sorry on that one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh.

Sorry; I'm a pessimistic female... canine, and this kind of comments is usually made as a pat on the back as part of diplomatic attempts. Glad to see someone who actually looks at the thing. (I've received reviews before that say, "I haven't read your story, but I guess you're pretty good..." *slaps own forehead*)



Granted. But they really shouldn't ask for something they're not prepared to accept, and y'know, on the 'Net there's no facial expressions or vocal tones to go by, so... (I also warned the person that I'm brutally honest, and the person still gave the green light.)

Being a writer myself, I would hate that. I certainly wouldn't do it to anyone else.



But people do you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's just people for you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />