POLITICALLY INCORRECT ELEMENTStheShephard :
The Ultima (RIP) series breifly began to include the ability to do some of the more politically incorrect elements of an RPG -- have sex and take drugs (v7 for sex, and v8, horrible as it was, had some shrooms in it I think, although even 7 graphically had many aminita muscaria littered about in the forest, you just couldn't do anything with them). Anyway, I always thought that it would be cool to make a game where all the political and proper restrictions were lifted. Obviously, there's only so much you can do code-wise, but this ties into comments about making the game "livable".
Lar :
Interesting thought - I'll admit that this is something we haven't explored really (There's an euthanasia debate with an elf but that's not exactly what you mean, right ?). Suggestions anybody ?
Lar
Tuamun :
Well, there is something like this in the game: Kill Ortho's pigs (which is mean!) and you will have to live with the consequenzes... Probably not exactly what you thought of, but it goes in this direction, I think.
If you implement the socalled "political incorrect" stuff like sex and drugs then the game may be restricted or forbidden in some countries....
theShepard :
Here're some interesting links that may provide inspiration for (~historically accurate) application of said elements..
Shrooms used to induce battle fury (berserkers), shrooms used by priests for visions etc..
http://www.gothic.net/~malice/mushroom.html http://www.calpoly.edu/~abalderm/muscarine.htmlGood point about the fear of censorship though... Unfortunately, Walmart and a host of other American stores (Kmart, etc) are about in step with Iran when it comes to this sort of stuff.. bummer, but should we be a slave to that or try and push the cultural boundaries? I guess the answer's clear when selling a product, ay?
EvilRussianScientist :
Sorry guys, I may be a little bit off topic but since when "having sex" became as socially unacceptable as "taking drugs" ?
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Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.
TheSchnibble :
quote:Originally posted by EvilRussianScientist:
Sorry guys, I may be a little bit off topic but since when "having sex" became as socially unacceptable as "taking drugs" ?
It always has been. You will burn in hell for even using the three letter s-word.
Father Schnibble
Goemoe :
You're right Eve.
I think comparing sex to drugs is something weird in itself. Only some religious fanatic might have such ideas. Since games are more for teen than oldies i would expect not to find any "cool" characters taking drugs.
Sex is a totally other point. It is not common to have sex implemented in rpgs, so if you do it, you have to fear offended reviews, or you have to find a way where everyone (save the fanatics...) is pleased with.
Goemoe
EvilRussianScientist :Father,
But what they will do to me for
actually practising it?!
Goemoe,
I think it is up to oldies to generate some ideas on unoffensive introduction of s(ooops, sorry, Father)- let's say physical side of genders interaction... Kinda FalloutII thingies full of innuendos...
Way of survavior will be even more fun if you can trade ...ual(yeah, I don't want to go to Hell ) favors for something you need. Hey, I would do everything to screw king/queen !
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Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.Dante :Interesting sub plots, Eve,... very interesting
Arhu :Ah well, but sex is at least known as "improper" in the public, or in other words politically incorrect, as theShepard named it. If such things were about to be implemented in a game, they wouldn't necessarily be a matter of common "unease", and imho, they don't have to be taken that seriously or become a philosophical debate. We've quite enough of that in real life.
It hasn't always been the only purpose of drugs to make one addicted - "induce battle fury, shrooms used by priests for visions"; medicine men used some weird smoke for that...
There were drugs (spice) in Dune; whiskey was used to anaesthetize someone (cf. Braveheart where one of the guys had an arrow sticking in his back which had to be pulled out), or just to reduce fear before a battle; . . .
If these "politically incorrect" things were reasonable, I don't think there would be problems with censorship. Just regard them as some history lesson.
Mushrooms, for example, are pretty natural anyway. There could be many a mushroom in the wilderness - they could be poisonous and reduce some stats or have certain (positive or negative) side effects, or they could simply be unhealthy or don't have any effects at all (serving as normal food).
As far as sex is concerned, there could at least be innuendos, as Eve suggested, though iirc, I've read a long time ago about LMK that you could happen to catch a couple having fun.
Oh btw, Ultima VII is on my current playlist, since I can finally play it in Win98 with my SB-Live and GM music . Can anyone tell me how sex was implemented there? Just nosy.
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Arhu
"You will always be lucky if you know how to make friends with strange cats." - Colonial American proverb
[This message has been edited by Arhu (edited 27-09-2000).]
Lar :>>As far as sex is concerned, there could at least be innuendos, as Eve suggested, though iirc, I've read a long time ago about LMK that you could happen to
catch a couple having fun. <<
If I'm not mistaking, there's this girl who is an expert at ice magic - she'll give you a rather wild night, oh mighty avatar cat
Lar
This small discussion, that eventually led to a certain quest in Verdistis and a very strong enemy, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> took place between September, 22nd, 22:29 and September, 28th, 2000 11:41.TO KILL A WOMAN
Marian :At the time when I am busy with a lot of monster variation i´ve still a couple of new monsters to do. And again a question came into my mind which i was discussing in larian studios a while ago.
Its a moral Thing. When playing Diablo 2 all of us had in the first act a lot of female rogues against us. Evil ones, okay. But still, everytime my necromancer killed one of them i felt sorry. No matter the fact it was only a pile of animated pixels i felt like killing a woman. The same in Diablo 1 with the sexy winged witches.
Later in a pub these days the topic came up when ilya and swen wondered about this and said they had no problem with that. Because it is of course equally bad killing a man OR a woman, right? An i had to agree.
But then again, this is the reason because in Divinity so far is one human female monster and she´s a special endbosslike creature.
So this bring the entire diskussion to you. What do you think? More Females to kill or not? Some humanoid monsters i have to create anyway, it is just the question if they become female or male...
Bronthion :I have no problems killing evil women.
I'm a great fan of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series. But one thing is always getting on my nerves: Rand Al'Thors problem killing the evil witches. Because they're women. Stupid boy.
But there is one big question, Marian: did you kill Andariel, or not?
Bronthion
[This message has been edited by Bronthion (edited 28-09-2000).]
Goemoe :If I have to defend me, I don't care whether it is a woman or a man: Why should I? This talk about beating women is outdated for my liking. You shouldn't beat anyone but you should at least defend yourself.
In a game there isn't even a difference between man or women. Both will hit you with equal force if you let them. Ask any women today if she would like to be treated like a weaker species and tell me which part of your body hurts after it
If you have some evil women (don't say female skeletons, please ) tell them to hide well or stay peaceful...
Goemoe
Tutamun :In Diablo II you only kill a pile of pixels where you can hardly guess what these pixels should be... In Diablo the nice sexy winged withes had wings and were thus not human. It was no problem for me to kill one or the other. In Icewind Dale you meet this nice Barmaid Lysan... I tried to avoid fighting her by all means, but in the end I had to defend myself. But it hurt to kill her. IRL I think I would have problems hitting women... I also would have problems hitting men, but it would be harder to hit women. She would have to kill me before I would be able to hit her.
>>I'm a great fan of Robert Jordans Wheel of Time series. But one thing is always getting on my nerves: Rand Al'Thors problem killing the evil witches. Because they're women. Stupid boy.<<
Der Mann hat Charakter! This is one thing about him I like. He's totally nuts, but he doesn't (versößt gegen seine Grundsätze)!
Sorry about my english... or writing parts in german in this topic, but I can't translate that now.
Marian :Exactly that´s the problem. In real life i did never hit or beat a woman and i hope i never will. You know, iron principles. So thats why i handle it more then less the same in the game.
Cybu :As most of you know I have no problkem killing lil' ol' grannies.
However I hate to kill animals (wolf in special) in a game.
on the other hand I had this strange encounter with the evil undead Squirrel in IceWind Dale. After kicking off the game my party and I encountered some kiddies staring playfull at a lovely squirrel. Since my party and I loved to enhance our reputation towards the nice people of Icewind Dale we decided to kill the Squirrel (call it a lesson in anatomy for the nice children )
After 4 minutes of constant battle with 6 adventurers I decided to quit the attack since the thought came up to me that the squirrel just couldn't be killed ... Now this is what I call immersion-killing gameplay ...
But back to the topic. No I don't object to killing women. (dead gils don't say no *diabolical grin*)
Cybu
EvilRussianScientist :Two points, if I may:
First:
All games are going to great extend to justify killing monsters -
monsters - even if it does have humun body by declaring them
monsters - not human beings.
What do we hate to hit - human being or human body?
Second:
To me it seems that Marian's "Moral thing" is utterly misplaced. I will try to explain why... I'll do my best...
Artist does not hit woman. So he feels not easy about putting women (he creates with care and love) in game to be slaughtered there. "if I will not put them there gamers will not have a chance of hitting them, thus my standing is not compromised and moral lesson is given" ... something isn't right about such assumptions.....
I am obviously not capable of concentrating now... But
quote:
Ask any women
today if she would like to be treated like a weaker species and tell me which part of your body hurts after it
RULEZ
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Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.
Dante :Eve, I know which part would hurt...
Marian: do not mind so much. In Fantasy RPG settings men and women are considered equally - in all aspects.
All: yes, I consider it bad to slash any being, male or female, human or not. (There were some racistic remarks about "we humans have the right to kill non humans"... hmmm I dislike this as much as ... um as... um... well you know.
So, fit women into the story where they fit, and although they have typical qualities, this does not mean they are only fitting a place in the kitchen, at the counter in shops, in the bars,...
Tutamun :Oh, I forgot to say. Put in Women that we have to kill... or may kill... or can kill... or whatever. It may hurt, but you can't leave them out because of this. They belong into our world. What would it be without them.
Risini Visinimi :IRL I also would never beat up a woman, but in a game, when there is the question to live or to die, I wouldn't have any scruple. That is 'cause I know, (even if she looks so beautiful) she is only a bunch of pixels with a heap of code control heur. But if don't have to kill heur, I would try to avoid it. I would also try to avoid to kill men, but not so mutch.
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Will you never forget how to laught!
Risini Visinimi
EvilRussianScientist :Dante... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Marian : quote:Originally posted by EvilRussianScientist:
"if I will not put them there gamers will not have a chance of hitting them, thus my standing is not compromised and moral lesson is given"
Yeah, right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> Ever asked yourself why i did post it here? Because i don´t want to teach a moral lesson to anyone.
And Dante, the storyrelated Woman are NPCs. There we have a lot of course, and i made a couple of them.
Dante :Yeah, you're right, but as others said, I wouldn't mind too much to kill a humanoid female creature (NCP or monster - for me they are all the same) if it threatens my life or tha life of an innocent being.
Well known examples to help you:
- gorgo medusa (mythology)
- sirens (mythology)
- vampire babes (current age B-movies, well "B" depends on who talks about the movie, hence, for me, B movies )
- alien killer babes (again movies, e.g. Species)
- etc... etc...
I mean, even IF a women would be beautiful, innocent etc by definition (I do not want to start a discussion about this but suppose it is ), as soon as the female creature in front of me does actions that thread to kill the innocent (like myself - see above), this brittle aura of innocense and beauty is shattered and I have no problem at all to kill that monster in front of me, no matter how beautiful she still looks.
No remorse.
Convinced now? (Only trying to help here)
Dante : quote:Originally posted by Marian:
The same in Diablo 1 with the sexy winged witches.
I think in Diablo I these succubi were a bit out of place and were just introduced to offer some erotic "reward" to the player that got so far. I mean, the monster can get bigger and uglier for a while, but then, what else can you introduce than shocking adversaries like succubi, half naked, with leather boots and trying to kill you? Uhuh... B movies, here I come <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Arhu :Uhm.. Eve is right - by declaring something a monster, it becomes a pretty trivial task to kill that monster, even if it's female. In Diablo the only thing that seemed female to me was the shape of succubi etc., but otherwise they were pure bow fodder as any of the other evil minions. They had no character at all.
If monsters had personalities, a life, a destiny beyond evil vileness, I'd most likely have problems hitting anyone of them. Imagine a darkelf clan (no offence meant, Marian, it's just an example. ). Normally I'd hate them, for they are wicked ceratures, and when I see some fighters, I'd kill them. But what if there was a camp, and in that camp, there lived those cruel fighters - together with women, children, pets... Now that would arouse some moral dilemmas! (That was what made Drizzt become a good elf, with reversed roles of course)
Marian: ~In real life i did never hit or beat a woman and i hope i never will. You know, iron principles. So thats why i handle it more then less the same in the game. ~
Is that a bad thing? Quite the opposite I think. And I personally would prefer even more moral conflicts in , because they can be another immersion factor. "Evil" creatures are not evil or from birth, or from their own point of view, they might even think of "good" races as evil (and vice versa). Maybe the leader of a filthy band of murdering outlaws has only become a mean person because of a bad experience in his childhood (eg. parents killed)... Anything could happen.
Remember Ralf in the German RPG chat area? He played Thief and never wanted to kill certain monsters, cause their cries were so pitiful. Right so! Poor creatures, they only defend their territory.
Something to make your dilemma even more sticky : have some mysterious guild; the members are bad people (that is, you'll maybe have to kill them at some time) and are clad in huge robes, their faces hidden in hoods, so that you can't know whether you're fighting a man or a woman...
They wouldn't make any sound at all while fighting - only when you stab their body you'd hear their painful cries of death...
(i.e. either male or female voices)
Edit: Would be nice if there were gains (experience, quests, ...) for avoiding and not fighting each seemingly evil "monster" you see.
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Arhu
"The cat has too much spirit to have no heart." - Ernest Menaul
[This message has been edited by Arhu (edited 29-09-2000).]
EvilRussianScientist :Sorry, beste Warlock, did not mean to make you face red and teethy . Lousy communication skill of mine - as I suspected..
quote:
Ever asked yourself why i did post it here?
Hmm, wild guess: Having problem (
moral -
not professional) with making female bodied monsters for and looking for guideness in this matter?
Wild guess is wild guess, you know that, do' ya?
And
HAPPY BIRTHDAY to YOU------------------
Why is psychoanalysis a lot quicker for men than for women?
.......When it's time to go back to his childhood, he's already there.
This serious discussion took place from September , 27th, 2000 23:53 to October, 1st, 2000 18:59.
