Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General My thoughts on the demo

1. The voiceacting. The Death Knight is okay-ish most of the time -- his intonations remind me of HK-47. Unapologetically evil, matter-of-fact, and dry while at it. But everything else? Ugh! Some of them sound like they're being forced to do the voicing (at gunpoint? Dragged from a sickbed? Bad hair day?), and others sound like the students in my Lit. class when they were forced to read The Crucible aloud, i.e., emotionless, flat, and all-around awful. The thought of all dialogue in the game being voiced is filling me with abject terror. That digging ghost's voice made me want to scream and throw my speakers against the nearest hard surface.

2. The interface. What's wrong with DD's interface, really? Somehow, the new one seems, to me, less refined than DD's. It's chunky, awkward, and not very intuitive. Equipping an item is an arduous process. Going through the skill window to add a new skill is almost a physical pain. I can live with it, but not very comfortably. Is it just me, or does the interface... feel like something out of a beta?

3. Graphics. Samey with DD. Nothing to complain, but nothing to praise. Not much eyecandy yet. So-soish.

4. The new skill system. What were they thinking? Maybe it'll get better in further progression, but as it is, it feels clumsy and impractical.

5. Quests/atmosphere/story/etc. Since the demo's so short, not much can be said about them. But so far, the quests seem to contain the elements that made me like DD so much -- not just typical RPG quests (see Diablo 2/Sacred/Dungeon Siege/et all), but something with touches of originality and intriguing creativity. More Bioware-ish than Blizzard-ish. Hopefully, there'll be multiple ways to solve quests.

6. Imbalance. So mana now can regenerate by itself. Wonderful. But why does it regenerate so awfully slowly, compared to hitpoints? There doesn't seem to be any stat (e.g, "survival") that can increase the mana regeneration rate, either. This seems to favor melee characters far more than magic-using ones.

I agree with most of your points, especially interface. Although you don't focus on any good points in the Demo, and I think there are a lot.

I think these negatives will bring overall ratings down from magazine publishers, unless they are changed by release.

It's a shame really. There such small niggles too.

You see, the demo's waaay too short. The good points are very easily eclipsed when, really, they are not very prominent. Witty dialogue? The DK's is cute, but there's not much else to go by. Good story? Remains to be seen. Innovative quests? I can only hope that the rest of the quests are as interesting as the ones I've seen.

I agree with you Winterfox. I'm sure the voice acting will cop heaps from the reviewers and REALLY lower their scores. That will definitely affect sales. If I hadn't played and enjoyed DD immensely, I'd be turned off by the voice acting in the demo.

i think your the first to say DK's cute....and as for the reviews...i don't go by it to much....i mostly don't agree with em aniway....

I didn't find the voice acting that bad, though there is always the volume control, if you want to turn it off. There have been a couple reviews of the demo already, and I don't remember seeing any great fuss over the voices.


[color:"orange"]Equipping an item is an arduous process.[/color]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> How is equipping items any different than in Divinity? You might have to give the other character something, that that is hardly an arduous task.


[color:"orange"]Going through the skill window to add a new skill is almost a physical pain.[/color]

You have never organized anything on your computer into grouped folders?
Other than the skill branch style, what other ways are there to organize such a flexible and configurable system? Should the skill system be gutted to fit into a simplistic interface?


[color:"orange"]4. The new skill system. What were they thinking? Maybe it'll get better in further progression, but as it is, it feels clumsy and impractical.[/color]

I found it immediately usable and understandable. It is much better organized than listing 96 skills on 3 screens in groups of 8, or listing every known skill in columns when clicking the secondary skill icon.


[color:"orange"]6. Imbalance. So mana now can regenerate by itself. Wonderful. But why does it regenerate so awfully slowly, compared to hitpoints?[/color]

I think mana regenerates slower for balance; with a very fast regeneration, you would effectively have unlimited mana, without the need for potions. The amount of health regeneration during a battle is not that great, so different regeneration rates do not make melee characters more powerful than magic users. Actually, mages tend to have fewer hit points, so the health regeneration helps them, as well.

Call me spoiled. I'm playing KotOR for the third time; what can I say?



It's clumsy. It still has the disorganized look of DD. Among other things. I'm comparing it to other RPGs, as well. It's almost on par with Morrowind's inventory, you know, except you don't have to scroll infinitely to select the desired items.



I don't organize my folders for entertainment -- do you? However, I play games for entertainment. Entertainment! Imagine that! Isn't it preposterous?



Good for you! Clearly, I must lack the intellectual fortitude to grasp the concept quickly. {/sarcasm} No, I have no problem understanding the skill system. I have problem with the clumsy management.



Really. So having to stand around and wait for mana to regenerate -- which takes a lot longer than hitpoints -- is balance? Good to know.

Well, I think it could be a bit faster. Right now its way slower than life... and I get your point... you'd be able to have unlimited mana... BUT, spells cost (at least the fire one I got) cost 53 or so mana/cast, so thats 3 casts for my level 4 mage in a row... probably takes 10 mins to regen the mana for another three casts, vs the heal points you could regen and start fighting.

I think putting points into intelligence (or whatever the hell the mana increasing one is) should boost it a little bit... not as much as regaining life, but so a mage can actually cast somewhat, without having to break-out his sword, which he cant use for... you know what.

And once you put so much into constitution (I think it is), wouldnt you regain life so fast you wouldnt need potions?...

[color:"orange"]I don't organize my folders for entertainment -- do you? However, I play games for entertainment. Entertainment! Imagine that! Isn't it preposterous?[/color]

It is the same system of management, with folders/skill grouped and sub grouped by category. I was wondering why you found the skill system poorly managable, when presumably you would be familiar with the style, at least.


[color:"orange"]I have problem with the clumsy management.[/color]

So an example of an elegant management system for such a flexible skill system would be what?


[color:"orange"]Really. So having to stand around and wait for mana to regenerate -- which takes a lot longer than hitpoints -- is balance? Good to know.[/color]

Does that make mages in Divinity useless, with no mana regeneration, but with a skill to regenerate health?

*facepalms* You missed the point completely. Game, not folder management. Folder management, not game. Mmmmkay? I can live with folders and such because I have to, and in any case, Windows' interface is far less clunky than BD's.



I can't come up with anything at the moment, but before you hop on the silly "if you can't do better, then shut up!" spiel, am I the one paid to develop the game? No? There you go.



No. However, the first level spells in DD don't have the same ridiculous mana costs. My magic-using character can hurl about two-three spells before her mana's down.

[color:"orange"]*facepalms* You missed the point completely.[/color]

No, I started that example, so I should know what I meant.
I wasn't trying to say the skill system should be just as fun to use as Windows Explorer.


[color:"orange"]I can't come up with anything at the moment[/color]

I don't do spiels, nor was my post phrased as an attack.

I found nothing wrong with the skill system because I could not think of anything better. Since I was familiar with the nested branch category style, it is usable and understandable enough I didn't have any problems that would make me wonder about alternatives.

If you could have given an example of something better, I would have understood why you called the skill system unmanageable. That's it.

Maybe having part of it organized top down, rather than left to right would reduce the amount of expanding / collapsing branches, and make it easier to navigate?


[color:"orange"]No. However, the first level spells in DD don't have the same ridiculous mana costs. My magic-using character can hurl about two-three spells before her mana's down.[/color]

Then this pretty much is the same problem playing an archer. Due to the initial limited availability of arrows, you need to play mostly melee, until later in the game when arrows become more available. I would think getting out of the prison level that arrows, potions, etc would be more plentiful, and this restriction would be eased or lifted. Unfortunately, the demo ends before you get to the next area. Too bad you couldn't go up a few levels and teleport to a small area later in the act, to get a better idea of the game. I don't know how feasible that would be to do, though.

...oof. Was there another post after Raze's or was I hallucinating?

To be fair, I'll admit that I harp on the negatives more than I do the good points. But again, the demo's too short for the things I found good in DD (and would, presumably, also be here) to shine. And after all, a lot of people found the DD demo off-putting (i.e., the first dungeon) but loved the rest of the game.

DD inherits Ultima's style of inventory, where everything is just dumped here and there. An "organise" by type icons will be helpful. At any rate, the game's interface issues is more prevalent in resolution higher than 800x600. I remembered playing DD in 640x480 because everything looks so small in 800x600. What about 1024 x 840 then?

The problem is BD is not full-3d. I believe full 3d may be for DD2. Does the wait for it starts now, I wonder?

The several white icons on the left side of the inventory. Try clicking on them.



You can zoom.


Is that a problem? No offence, mate, but people who play games for the eye candy are called 'Graphic Whores'. I am sure you are not one, though.

I played the demo for the third time yesterday and found a pair of glowes. You can actually see the gloves on your character! Only morrowind had 3d gloves, IIRC.

As for the system, Winterfox, it's VERY good and original, IMHO. You'll get used to it.

I have something more in mind of placing the items side by side, like what you get what you right-click on the desktop and select "arrange icon". Sometimes items can be meshed together, such as a glove on top of the sword and etc.



Discovered this quite by chance when I am using the mouse-wheel. But it does not zoom into the interface, which is the issue here. On higher resolutions, the item images within the inventory are quite small and tiny. It may makes clicking on the items harder, especially swords and long thin objects.



I meant the interface issues can be solved if BD is full-3d, like Dungeon Siege. It is easier to program 'auto-scaling the inteface depending on resolution' if the system is 3d to begin with.

Since touching on the issue of 3d...

There are some ideas which are easier to implement with 3d. For example, if Larian has not switched the characters from sprites to 3d mesh, they will be hard pressed to come up with the character customisation actions and the ability to customise the appearance depending on equipment. Yes, it's doable, but it will require lots of bitmap images to recreate the effect.

However, a 2d-implementation / 3d mix for BD is more suitable than a full-3d implementation.

BD's skill systems is not about managing folders - it's manging skills. Arguably, there's dozen of ways to clear up the implementation (is there really a need to all the various skill trees in one dialog, for example?), but just because the interface sucks doesn't mean the skill systems sucks. A top-down tree may be better, for people are more familiar. Some lines linking the various boxes to each other could make for more clearer presentation. But so far I am okay with the presentation, and actually quite thrill with the actual system.

Of course, everyone percieve differently. Making the folder-system may makes it feel like 'work'. But it basically quite decent, IMHO. Worse damage could be done.




Everything in BD is way scaled up, including the damage. A first level elemental fire missile attack does damage in the range of 20-50. Considering that you have another character to 'tank' for you, it sounds reasonable that the magic system to be tweaked slightly. BD is not designed to be played solo - so mages are not designed to be played solo too, unlike DD and the original concept of D2.

Mages are one of the difficult classes to balance, in any RPG game, especially in solo games. Make them too weak, well, you can't even get pass the beginning sequences. Make them too strong (either the spells or the mana-cost), and they are unbalanced. Remember how useful level 1 meteorstrike could be in DD?

So considering that now you have another character on your side, magic must be balanced, and one way (not the only way, but one way) is the higher mana cost.

The mana regeneration is not designed to be used in combat. BD is not D2 - you are not fighting every frame, or in every room. In the demo, combats are sparse. You don't engage in combat every rooms. As you wander from room to room, exploring, solving puzzles, talking to NPCs, your mana regenerates, and by the time you reach another battle area, you have some mana for blasting. For battle-intensive areas, well, there's always mana potions, and if we judge by DD, those shalln't be too hard to come by if you have Alchemy, an essential skill in DD.

(IMHO, NWN and Baldur Gates' 'spell per days' ranked far worse than BD's system in my esteem).

This also means one does not just blindly dump trunkload of spells. For example, Fengrus. If you blast him with all the spells at the beginning of the fight most likely you will lose, for he possess magical healing which will recover most of the damage you have caused. However, gang up on him and wait for the moment that one or two blast of spells can bring him down - you don't even give him a chance to heal.