Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Suggestions comparing the BD demo to diablo2: poor represent?

Is the demo a poor representation of the full game?

Here I'll show you this:

"I will compare BD gameplay to Diablo2, because D2 is a simplistic fun game everybody knows and hardcore RPers so despise.

*character creation + lvling:

diablo2: 5 classes (original) each with 3 class specific skill trees and rougly 30 skills for each class.
At lvl-up, points go into ability scores and stats.

BD demo: 3 classes each with 1 tree and 3 skills per tree on average, but you can make custom hybrids of those 3 classes.
At lvl-up, you can put points in skills and you can upgrade magical and weapon skills. You can also put points in the ability scores on the inventory screen(! ?) but you get no message to do so. 10 skills total.

BD full version: promises 300 skills?

*Play style:

diablo2: you talk to people to get quests to either kill something or fetch something. You then go on a killing spree with melee or ranged weapons (including magical attacks), depending on your build.
Fighting consists of clicking at your enemies and holding the mouse button.
No puzzles, no dialogue.

BD demo: your companion talks to you at the start of the game and then you get a quest to escape your prison. Then you do a lot of walking and kill some guards in between.
You can use some rare melee weapons you find or a bow and mages can cast one kind of spell after lvl-up, choice between air/water/fire/eath damage which makes no difference in the demo.
Fighting consists of clicking on your enemy once and waiting for combat to resolve, or clicking repeatedly if you want to casts multiple spells at them.
1 very simple puzzle involving 5 levers with the solution written down in the same room.
Dialogue consists of guards shouting things at you before initiating combat and one skull who gives you a quest to kill some torturer(=a guard).


*companions:

Diablo2: you cannot control your summons or hirelings but you can have several.

BD demo: one death knight companion and you have full control over him.

Conclusion:

BD plays like diablo2, but with little action, fewer options, fewer choices, less tactics, but with a hint at RPing through a few rare dialogue sequences you cannot influence at all.
The only thing BD does better than diablo is the GFX: direct3d compared to diablo's 640x480 2D."

What do you guys think?

If you're comparing the full Diablo 2 game to a short BD demo => you're comparing apples with pears => I suggest a fruitsalad, makes more sense <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

As Bronthion and Fredric /Larian Studios were in charge of quests, I'm sure, there will be more than simple quests and not only hack'n slash.

As you get summoning dolls later on, you will have more party members to control.

I'm sorry, there are definitely more than 10 skills. Please open the skill tree (left lower icon in skill table) and look at Shaman Magic (nature or weather part) eg. - look at the path cursing - look at the converting arrow part - have you seen how large the variety of traps are? Etc.

Kiya

Don't get me started on Diablo II flaws, please, both post-v1.10 and pre-v1.10.



Diablo II's five classes have different quirks for each iteration of the patch. The most common thing is despite the various branches of skills, you only get to see some of the skills because most are just filler. Will you see anyone using Frost Nova on a frequent basis? Firebolt? Inferno? No, sorceress just go with Static Field, Hydra, Fireball, Meteor and nothing else because nothing else is needed.

That's the same for the nercomancer - Teeth? Don't make me laugh. Bone Lance is only good enough for mid-game. And who in his right mind will learn Bone Wall and Bone Cage?

Likewise, Barbarian just pumps Whirlwind, Paladin either Fanctisim (sp), Zeal, Vegenace, Concentration + Holy Hammer. Amazon goes with Multiple Shot, or the incredible one-hit-wonder, level 1 Jab! Or exploits the Piercing + Guided Arrow trick.

Post 1.10 patch we have skills adding syngeries to each other. Great. But what haven't changed is still the same amount of skills that are actually used. Oh, things are slightly different now. Amazon don't use mutliple shot + pierce anymore. Sorceress are nerfed, due to the new system. The skills which were fillers then are now boosters. You still don't use them, but at least they boost the skills which you use.

Point is - Diablo II has only the illusion of depth. Beside fighting and slaying, there's really nothing else you can do. And oh, please don't mention Diablo II's quests. Before D2 comes out, there was talk of a dynamic quest system - depending on how you solve the quest, or what quests you solve, the NPC will have different attitlude towards you. It wasn't in the final game. All quests are linear or optional. Not doing one will not have an impact.

OTH, Divine Divinity has it, and BD may has it too. Already, in the second room you get a moral decision to make - to kill the imp or to let him go? Do you help the Skull to get his revenge on Fergus, or simply sneak pass the torture-master?



At the bottom of the skill panel there is an option for you to show all the avaliable, unlocked skill paths. See for yourself.

Of all the skills, the Wizard's one are the most interesting. You can have an sol, dual, tri or quad elemnetal bolt, instant attack or a radius attack. That already account for 12 skills! We have compressed and abstracted most of Diablo II's sorceress skill trees!

It's not just 10 skills total. I haven't go on to the radius skills, summoning, deflection/protection...Think of BD's skill system as a skill creation system. You get to define your own skills and abilities.

And, not to forget that there's no classes per se in BD. You can choose to learn skills from another classes, too. So techically speaking you can learn all the 300+ skills in BD, unlike 60 from D2 (with most of them worthless).

.

I have rebuffed this conclusion point by point. Action is not the main focus of BD, it's not a pure hack and slash game. Fewer options? BD give you a boatload of options that could sink the Starship Enterprise right at the beginning of character creation. You can choose to reassign the stats anyway you want. Or have the stats of a warrior but the skills of a survivor. Not to mention that the skills suggest you can enchant items, craft potions, lock-picks, create traps.

I have already pointed out that the skill-system in D2 is only an illusion of depth. Most skills in BD seems to be useful by their own merits, ESPECIALLy since you get to customise to the degree which you want. Don't see the need for a water-based elemental attack? Fine, don't learn it then. Unlike D2, you are not forced to tranverse a skill tree and get skills you don't want because they happened to be in the way.

And less tactics? Diablo II is not the pinnacle of a tactical game. Actually, BD has more tactics than Diablo II. Diablo II involves getting the right gear, the right build and just go down there and kill. Remember whirlwind barbarians?

In BD, you get to decide who to tank. Decide when to use spells, as they are some powerful but such a mana drain. Decide which weapons to use for the particular enemy. When to use whirlwind attack. And etc. And that's just for the demo.

"A hint at RPing" - a hint? Yep, a pretty good damn hint for a half an hour demo. There's already much more role-playing moments concentrated within the demo than some complete games. Diablo II don't even have any rare dialogue sequences - and don't get me started on NWN, especially the first core campagin. Curse in anyway you like, but Fenwick will still insist you are the best choice for the job. Illusion of a choice.

And this is just the demo. And by gosh, if the demo itself has shown how much way better it is than an entire game, I am going to stake my money on it!

So I argee with the OP! The demo is but a pale reflection of a the sun, but it is still a light in the dark.

[color:"orange"]BD demo: 3 classes each with 1 tree and 3 skills per tree on average, but you can make custom hybrids of those 3 classes.[/color]

Actually, it is classless (other than skill categorization). Your initial skill type selection determines your starting skills, but you can learn skills by finding teachers or books (both included in the demo).


[color:"orange"]You can also put points in the ability scores on the inventory screen(! ?) but you get no message to do so.[/color]

Apparently you did not read the short tutorial that came up the first time you opened your inventory. Also, the inventory button glows red when you have unassigned stat points.


[color:"orange"]BD plays like diablo2, but with little action, fewer options, fewer choices, less tactics[/color]

Excuse me? BD has a much more flexible skill system, with classless characters you can develop any way you choose. Even the limited quests in the demo are more than the 'go-kill-this' or 'find-this-item' quests in D2.

This is not about diablo, but the BD demo. Anyway, you forget energy shield,ice blast and chilling armor(=very good). Also you cannot discount firebolt and the lot, because you have to use these in the early lvls, so you did actually use them.
You missed similar points about the other classes.

But it doesn't matter, because I think diablo2 isn't a real rpg, but the similarity with the BD demo is still there.

*snips rant about diablo2*

If you take the mage class in BD now, I really find only 2 skills: missile or instant spells in any of 4 elemental types. If you hated D2 then how is that good?



I really missed this illusion in the BD demo. A demo is supposed to make the player hot for the full version!
I think many players who DL this demo will see even less than I did. I made an effort playing all three classes and finishing the demo. This is what I saw.



But that's not real RP is it? Even in diablo you can choose to run from a random encounter, I suppose.
Since you brought NWN into it, a nice RP situation is when you need to defend a barbarian accused of murder in court and you have the choice of bribing the jury and witnesses or find out what really happened. Or even mess up the defense deliberately. This is from NWN chapter2. There's more of such subquests in NWN and it's expansions. Yes, you have to follow the main quest line but you still have some freedom while doing that.
As it is now, with this demo as BD cannot even compare to NWN, sorry. Back to hack and slash comparison.




I did. 2 skills for a mage tree(missile or instant) + the warrior skill tree because the knight weas a warrior.
With a ranger only 4 survivor skills and the warrior skills.
With a warrior only weapon specialistaion for both myself and the DK.

That's the demo.



The tiny hint is not enough IMO. In NWN you can atleast threaten quest givers to give you more money, if you play an evil villain. Then there's real dialogue in some subquests, especially chapter 2 and 3. Both chapters were pretty good for crpg standards. You could also rob almost any NPC in the game through threats... Etc. etc.
Nothing like that in this demo.

So if you say the full game will be much better, than I would suggest a better demo.
A game demo is like PR so you need to show a sample of the very best. This demo turned me off and that's not a good sign.

Wizard skills in BD, ONLY offensive ones =>
elemental attack (5)
elemental curses (5)
Body Magic offensive (disease, polymorph, slow, blind, paralyze, pacify)
Shaman weather => (meteor, acid rain, wind of furies, lightning storm)
Shaman nature => (insect swarm, spikes, earthquake, hammer)
ethereal => elder fire, fireball)

Warrior - craftmanship - convert arrows (12 different sorts)
Survivor - traps - convert (12 different sorts)

This is only a small example, Badass. The demo doesn't show how to use these skills, correct - but this demo shows all skills as well, so I have an outlook.


I guess it is very difficult to show a sample of the very best. From reading the reviews and weekly peeks I gather this game is very complex. It is done in acts - in chapters. How to show the best then? What is the best? Fleeing out of this dungeon is Act 1 => the easiest part of the game, so gamers can get used to skills slowly (teachers coming one by one), enemies are not so powerful.
In Act 2 => you've escaped and wander around on the surface of this continent. How would you be able to survive if you are not familiar with at least some skills? Have you looked at screenshots?
In Act 3 => you're coming nearer to the main enemies, they're powerful. How will you survive in a demo? Even if you start with a lvl 15-20 char...

I only know one thing => if BD is similar to Diablo I wouldn't buy it, I detest this kind of hack'n slash, I want to wreck my brains on riddles - develop emotions, take sides (done so already, when I saw the slaughtered Raanaar corpses and the slavery of imps IN the demo). This is different than just killing/looting my way around with nifty graph effects when I kill.

And in spite of gamers claiming Diablo to be an RPG => it isn't! Au contraire, this game has caused immense damage to the RPG genre, caused a downfall, a degeneration, gave way to an era of fastfood games. Diablo is only this in my eyes => a 3rd person shooter in a superficial fantasy world.

[color:"yellow"]Please, keep in mind: I'm not attacking gamers liking to play Diablo - I criticize the theft of a genre: RPG. I criticize if Diablo is set as a standard for a genre it does NOT stand for.[/color]

In case you wonder: I've played pen&paper RPG for many years - I like Div very much, because I mourned for the old Ultima tradition that was forsaken from Ultima 8 on - so I had to swallow very often when Div was called a Diablo clone. Maybe you can understand my rant better now, even if you disagree <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Dude, you are comparing D2 with BD! I have to rant about D2, don't I? *shrug*

You don't have to use firebolts in the early level. I have done Sorceress using bows till they reach level 18 with relative ease.

And nope, I don't going to dump my entire repository of D2 knowledge on this page. It's a FAQ, not a competition to see who knows D2 better. And I suppose I 'dump' enough to get my point across.



Remind me next time to consider when to spend 0.000005% of my lifespan typing out a post only not have it read in its entirely. Click on the "Show All Skillpath" button at the bottom of the panel and see. Last I check there is:

Elemental - Focused
Elemental - Missile
Elemental - Radius
Elemental - Defense - Reflection - Self
Elemental - Defense - Deflection - Self
Elemental - Defense - Reflection - Party
Elemental - Defense - Delfection - Party
Elemental - Weaken - Spread
Elemental - Weaken - Circle
Elemental - Weaken - Focused

There are 4 elements in BD. There are 7 groupings. That's THIRTY-TWO skills. Now, a skill can consist of more than one element. So technically speaking, you can have 4 to the power of seven number of skills!

And that's all the Elemental aspect. There's also the Body and Summoning Dolls. Granted, the warrior and survivor skills are not that customisable, but just for wizards alone, this is not bad.



Since you want to compare demos, let compare demos. I was on the Battle.Net trial for D2. There's only one class, and two skills - Bash and Double Swing. And have you clicked on the Show All Skillpaths? That's enough to make me shiver. Actually, I don't know about you, but the game is already enough to make me hot. It shows the potential of the skill system clearly.




But that's not real RP is it? Even in diablo you can choose to run from a random encounter, I suppose.
[/quote]

Please don't hang out a decoy to distract, No, not computer game, save for Dungeon-mastered NWN, is a true role-playing game if you defined RPG as that of pen and paper type. The point is there's a hint of role-playing in BD. And yes, you can choose to run away from a fight in Diablo II. Point being? Is that, erh, true "RP"? You used "Even" at the beginning of your sentence, which suggests that you can't do that in BD.




I got bored of it in chapter 1. Went on to play Elegia and Penutlimta series.



NWN. No, no, you don't want to get me started on it. The core campagin is the most generic fantasy role-playing triple which they can throw to the ground. The plot, at the beginning, is lifeless. Your actions, at most, shift your alignments. But no, no, this is about BD and its comparison to hack and slash, so let me state once more -

BD is not just hack and slash.


I did. 2 skills for a mage tree(missile or instant) + the warrior skill tree because the knight weas a warrior.
With a ranger only 4 survivor skills and the warrior skills.
With a warrior only weapon specialistaion for both myself and the DK.

That's the demo.
[/quote]

I see what you see not,
vision milky, then eyes rot.

If I want to spite you, I can show you what I see. But no, I don't have the time for that. I already listed the wizard's skill tree above. You are missing the survivor's traps and talents tree, the warrior's craftmanship->repair, talent, shamantic magic and natural magic for the wizard.



Threaten quest givers - at most an alignment shift. Have no consquence on the plot.

Look, chapter 1 of NWN put me to sleep already. Look, as I have stated elsewhere on the board, the demo is not perfect, but griping about a demo seems to making a balrog out from an orc.



Now you have raised a very interesting question. The demo is such because the game begins as such. Shall the designers design the game with the demo in mind? How else will someone starts the game? Or are you suggesting the developers create a solely-demo level and clocks in additional development time?

It seems that you are expecting hardcore hard n slash action and are rather put off by the slow pace. For me, there's enough blood-shed already.

Anyway, you and I seem to be on different frequencies, and seriously, this debate shall end now. I see no point going on. Anyway, it's very interesting to see other's RPG experiences and expectations.

BTW, I don't loathe D2 at the beginning, but after 10 iterations of patches I give up. I just hate the NWN core campagins, but then I always hate D&D (don't ask me why I get the game), but the custom modules are a blast, especially Elegia and Penultimata.

I think the demo is adequate for me, and hey, since we both are not prepared to change our mind, why not shall leave it be and sleeps happily.

So you could understand my point about the demo then. True NWN wasn't exactly BG2(hardly), but still a decent game. If you got to chapter 2 it did get better. Shame you missed chapter 2 and 3.
So you should understand that it would be a shame if the game turns out to be very good, but the demo (first half of chapter one) turns many people off.



^^^ You admitted you didn't play past chapter 1, what would you know about the OC?



It earns you money and that counts. Atleast you can act like a [nocando], a good guy or a neutral in NWN, in the demo you cannot even do that.
Harping about NWN in this respect then you should critize the BD demo also.



Yes! Yes and yes! Modify some game files and cut and paste great events in a sequence. This game uses a tileset it appears so the devs could simply copy/paste rooms+content. Maybe link different rooms and scenes through area transitions.
This kind of thing should be pretty easy to do really.



Yes the game needs a faster pace IMO. I expect lots of RP and/or mind cracking puzzles and/or fast action or strategy; all in big chunks.
If there's less killing then I want more RP or difficult puzzles.

With RP I mean things like choosing between red team or blue team; making alliances; judging criminals; romancing and more romancing; permanent deaths of beloved ones and dealing with it; bragging in taverns, etc.

If the game has these things the demo should show us some of that.

Sigh, you just won't let it up. If you think the demo sucks, you are consuming your own braincell. You are entitled to your opinions! Stand by it!

I don't find BD and D2 similarly, and I am stand by it. So don't waste breath trying to persuade me. So you find BD and D2 almost the same? Well, good!



Maybe they shall put this in the beta doc, ah? Click on the Show All Skillpaths button, and a cross will appear. Then click on the Wizard box. You shall see the available skills for the wizard. Kiya demostrated that too. No, there is no conspiracy to change your mind about the demo. You said the demo sucks.So of course, to you the demo sucks!



That it sucks, period. And that's my opinion, as stubborn as the dwarven stonedoor of their hidden knowledge. I play mid-way into chapter 2 and lost interest. A lot of people I knew lost interest in the NWN campagin.



And you are able to pick-pocket in DD and the skills are in BD too. Look you, for are pining for a complete game when they only give you the demo. The demo doesn't satisfasted your expectations. You expect that this <150 MB of download includes all the skill trees, role-playing options, detailed conversation tree and the kitchen sink, while at the same time having music, graphics, customisable models, inventories, weapons, enemies, spell, images, textures and special effects and combat. Take any one of them away so that there will be more feature will only inccur more gripping from the audience. Maybe you shall download NetHack or Angband instead.

Point is? You are stubborn convinced that the demo sucks as much as I am stubbornly convinced that the demo is fine. There's no really big right and wrong here. Enjoy your opinions. No one is forcing you to change your mind about the demo. What we, the Beyond Divinity Evangelists, are concerned is that you get to give the demo its deserved chance to woo you, to see it fully before making a decision about the demo. It seems that you have invested quite an amount of time in the demo and have came to your conclusion. It's not a knee jerk reaction, so it is well-honed by time, musing during your free time and etc. So I'll honour it. But I am still stubbornly convinced that the demo is fine, despite its flaws.



Shall be, but as a programmer myself, not as easy as one may think. I don't know what tools they used though.

LOL. You don't understand. This IS the suggestions forum RIGHT?? I'm not just stating an opinion. I'm also hinting at something that needs to be done.
Don't worry I won't persuade you, but I hope someone else who makes a difference does listen.



Shall be, but as a programmer myself, not as easy as one may think. I don't know what tools they used though.
[/quote]

I think they had better polish the demo up (and chapter1 of the full version I suppose), even if it'll cost additional resources.

>I'm suggesting now that they do a better demo.

Other game companies have done that before, so it's not without precedent or merit.
I'm a nice guy with great interest in crpgs and i think I've been pretty mild in my judgement sofar. Game reviewers will not be as forgiving as me. Casual gamers who DL the demo are worse.
Hardcore fans praising the demo without any critique, are not sending the right message to the developers.
It needs improvement. if a 160mb DL won't suffice make it a 250mb, one or cut the into music and some SFX including spoken dialogue, but a good demo has to show more actual content!

DD was well received by everyone, so I can't believe BD will be bad, but the current demo does make it seem so. And that IS bad.

You think that Diablo 2 has more tactical combat?? Since when does Diablo 2 has tactics? The only thing you have to do there is use the best skill you have and maybe together with a second skill to boost your skills or to lower the skills of the enemy.

And in Beyond Divinity you have 2 characters to control, where you can make for example your hero a wizard and the deathknight a warrior. Then you assign your targets, with correct skills etc, then you exit pause mode, and you let your hero cast fire balls until he runs out of mana, so you need to switch your hero to normal attacks with the one handed sword. etc...

You cannot mean you missed the most important tactic missing in BD, can you?

In diablo and many other games a ranged specialist do can the Shoot and Run tactic.
In this game it's not even possible to protect your wizard with your death knight, once an opponent has targetted your wizard.
And it's not the AI that is being smart here: enemies just target the closest PC.
If it's the wizard then you have a problem. You cannot outrun your opponent nor do your enemies receive an attack of opporunity, if they run past your knight towards your wizard (like they would in NWN or TOEE).
That is annoying.

Other tactics: in diablo you have to target shamans before devils for example, because the shamans keep raising the fallen. On the other hand you need to attack devils to reach the shaman if you play a melee type.

There's only one fight in the demo with more than 2 creatures (normal difficulty) and that's the fight near the kitchens. And they didn't even include a spellcaster to complicate matters. Here it's just a matter of talking them all out one at a time. Not very exciting.

What also bothered me was that elemental damage types didn't seem make any difference in combat. Even in diablo you have to pick the right weapon to get past damage resistancies.

In this game it's really no more than click at opponent once with knight selected and then select main character and repeat. Maybe drink one potion during combat and you win. Not very exciting.
Compare to diablo where you have to dodge fireballs while shooting and running. Or compare to NWN where you need to buff your PC with spells and potions and worry about DCs, reflex saves, ABs, spell resistancies, disjunctions, etc.

Tactics man!

I'm pretty sure the devs could have thought up some difficult encounters and hand out some required scrolls and buffs necessary to win the fight, but they didn't do so in this demo.

I just don't get it. With <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> they release a large demo and then people are complaining "the demo is too large", "the firts dungeon is to hard".... Ok now with this demo it's "the demo is to short", it's too easy. Man I never knew a game comunity was so hard to please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



Well theire was a same monster in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> so it will most likly be in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> too. It was just not in the demo. This would have made the demo to hard I think. You have trouble fighting 2-3 guards guess how much touble you'll be in when fighting a necromancer.



Believe me in the full game theire will be element resistance on enemies. Just ask Shrimpo.

(undead has high resistance against bone damage)

Also try killing fergus whith no magic. It's darn near imposible. You probably figuered out that fergus has a weaknes against mages.

And when you want want to lure a enemy to an other char let the char run to somewhere and jabb him with to other char the enemy will follow the other char then. It worked for me and since it is the beginning of the game you can't expect to meet the highest AI enemies do you?

What I've heard from AI and Act 3 would make you scream for your mommy.

(from a press release: Act 3 will have you scream for you mommy)

You want an exaple of AI.
In the full game theire is a monster that first paralizes you and while you are paralize lays explosive around you then moves away and hits you with a poison blast. when You try to walk you most likly explode the mines. Or what about the Dark ring members that when theire on the brink of being defeated teleport out to recover.

I sence that most of your problems lay with that the demo is in the learning curve of the game while you wanted probably a demo that started in act 3. Well just call this a teaser demo then. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

wow! Kiya thanx, I totally forgot to test that out! *runs away to check on other skills*

I also suggest fruit salad ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />


Seriously, I cannot understand why someone's comparing D2 with a Demo ...

I never had a problem with that. Firstly, I always tried to keep the Warrior in front (atmitidly tricky sometimes). Secondly, if my Wizard or Ranger is targetted by a melee enemy, I make him run and have the Warrior chase the assailant. That seems to work.


Now you can have a ranged and a melee character. The melee protects your ranged while they pick off the summoner.


There's a couple of crossbow-men in that room, but you're right, not particularly tricky.


They didn't in the demo. Although I noticed that the ghosts seemed immune to my Air attacks (and possibly the other three elements too).


It will get trickier. I agree that the demo was a poor representation of the game. But having played Divine Divinity through, I know there are a lot more tactical areas. And with the improvements in Beyond Divinity they can only be better now.


I just thought. Try the Divine Divinity demo. It's probably a better representation of what Beyond Divinityp has to offer! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

The other thing with Beyond Divinity is that it's meant to appeal to a wide audience. It's not just hack-and-slash, but it can be. It has RPing, but it's mostly optional. The harder puzzles are optional and provide bonuses and additional quests. It was an interesting way to make a game, and it caused it's own problems, but it worked quite well for Divine Divinity. I think Divine Divinity was the best thing since Quest for Glory. I'm looking forward to see what Beyond Divinity has to offer.

You just love to compare the demo of BD with a full game D2, and saying that the demo sucks because it is not as good as the full game of D2. I don't know, you are absolutely right! The demo of BD cannot be compared with the D2 because the BD demo is a demo and they can't put every <insert your favourite swearword here> feature into it!

And oh my gosh, please, don't start about tactics in D2. Except for Hell mode onward, the game was cakewalk with some uniques and rares. The Whirlwind Barbarian don't require tactics to play. The Sorceress with their crazy Firewall don't need tactics to play. If you mean tactics, like knowing when to attack, where to position yourself, when to run, how to get the best effects, well, okay, I grant you that.

You say that the type of weapon doesn't matter? Try using magic against ghosts? Try using club on skeletons? Can you please tell me what happen?

Badass, have you looked into the excellently differentiated trophies list? These monsters have a large variety of resistances in different values. Now, compare these resistances please with the converting arrow skill. (12 different types of arrows) if you like ranged combat.

I agree, you could not find special arrows in the demo - but if I compare these monster resis with the converting skills, I get a hunch how important tactics will be for my ranged mage. Why? Well, I can't boost her up very quickly, skill pts are precious - so I might have to specialize on some magical damage and then try to make her more powerful by providing her with the appropriate arrows (they can be bought, if I don't want to spend skill pts on making/converting them)

I was quite surprised that a skeleton was not as vulnerable to fire as I expected (+2), they didn't like crushing and even had -97 spir. resistance - I saw, Fergus was -100 resistant against bone damage...

Those lvl ghosts => +82 res. against fire, slashing -8, very low against ethereal, shadow, bone damage.

As I don't know what "tactics" are for you - I know what they are for me =>

1. Building up my char according to skill pts/stats.
2. Trying to find out the lowest monster resistance, choose the appropriate skill/weapon/spell and then target, sit back and relax (or not) - or throw a fit because I have miscalculated her as soon as I enter a new act and find out those monsters are totally different - or my arrow slots are full with unsuitable arrows and my DK has the right ones in his inventory <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> .
3. Play around with the "select all" and "single move" - as I already did in the demo => letting the DK unlock the ghost cells alone, keeping her at safe ranger distance - pausing the game, choosing the party button, targeting and unpausing. Or, in the guard room => assigning chars to different enemies at the same time - all in pause mode.

You might find this redundant - but I like to find out the efficient way instead of merely slashing my way through, so I do think - according to the skills I saw but can't use yet, because teachers have not unlocked them for me - BD has a potential for subtle tactics.

I don't want to convince you about the demo - I merely want to point out future aspects, ok?
Kiya

Kiya,

I have the fortune to pick up a quiver of air-enchanted arrows in the demo (yep, imagine my joy).

THIEF! They're mine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> - in case you have splitting/explosive arrows, they're mine, too... hand them over, please. I'll trade them for my unidentified axe identify lvl 3, ok? (Ain't I generous?)

Nice to see you again, Rana - I know you from the old forum, very well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Rana, how were the graphics for these arrows? Little whirlwinds? cyclons?