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#171010 12/03/04 01:41 PM
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I am a bit concerned to see I only got one skill point per level gained.
If there are 300 skills, with levels inside skills, and summoning dolls needing skill points as well, it might be a bit scarce.

I would like to have other ways of gaining skill points: it could be a given quest type in the battlefields, or finding special objects giving skills points (like horseshoes in might and magic series).

Or maybe give more skill points when some higher levels are reached, or whatever.

Has anyone who participated in beta testing any comment? Am I right to be afraid aboutlack of skill points?

Thanks,
Philippe

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You can visit the battlefields to level up and thus get skill points. But you are not supposed to be able to have all 300 skills. You probably can't afford it even.
You will have to make choices that fit your characters best, which is good.


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And If you realy want all skills just open up your favorite heweditor and start editing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />.


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If DD is only indiciator, there may be items which boost skills. Most likely those skills will be those of the Body Magic nature, weather magic, shamantic magic or generally those which are less tweakable.


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Level 5 gives you 2 skill points as divine divinity <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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i think skill point accumilation should go like this: 2nd level 1 point, 3rd level 2 points, 4th level 1 point, 5th level 2 points. that way your actually gonna get somewhere and also this allows for a greater ammount of skills your adventurer is good at rather than having 1 level in freeze and 1 level in lighting and 1 level in...........etc.

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Nah, all you have to do is choose. If that's too hard then that's tough.


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The amount of skill points is scarce,... if you only had one character. But you actually get twice the amount of skillpoints since you have two characters off the bat.

As long as their skills don't overlap, you can cover twice the ground.


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That's a good point. You could gain co-operative skills quite quickly this way.

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Well yeah skill points may seems not enough.
For example, i had lvl 10 in lockpick and still was unable to open any chest i did see. You have to realize that if you are level 30 you have not much more than 35 skill points, if you put 10 in lockpick ... and you cant open anything, what a waste. That let 25 to put in some things like item identification, healing yourself, some spells, repairing, trap detection, etc ...
think to is, 35 skills point, 5 in trap detection, and 5 in trap disarm will eventually keep you safe for half of the game, but it's 10 skills points in all ... that seems alot when you have 35, and if you need more, 10 in trap detection, 10 in disarm ... means 20 points ... not much left for anything else.
At high level unlearn of a skill will probably cost too much money, what is wrong is that it cost you the same to unlearn a 1 skill point skill (example item identify) and a 25 skills point Skill ( example fully buffed slashing 1 hand attack )

There are things wrong, like you for example put 5 points in accuracy of 1 hand slashing, and on your way, you pick a shiel in the other hand. You then now changed of skill usage ( it's the 1 hand with shield that is used ), so you did lose ALL your accuracy bonuses. If you are a god with a 1 hand sword, you probably still very good if you have 1 hand sword and a shield.
Same as if your sword do now shadow damage, you lose all the bonus from slashing ... ?

We'll see that in real once this future hit is in the stores <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


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I'll confess that after completing the demo a few times, I'm still not particularly excited about the new skill system. I dislike having to "open" a skill area through training, only to discover that I still can't use the skill until I put precious points into it. Some quick calculations show that even with two characters, trying to cover the must-have skills that were relatively easy to acquire in DD (minor repair skill, I.D., lockpicking, minor alchemy... all of which I could not do without in DD... and major combat skill in one's specialty along with a couple of pertinent spells like shield or freeze) will be time-consuming and more difficult in BD.

As someone noted, having all one's skill points in one-handed melee only to lose the benefits if one finds a nifty shield is frustrating. Truth is, I was disappointed to see that you have to decide what your weapon specialty will be up front, before you even know what weapons will be available and when you might get them. Unless I want my character to be a club-user forever and ever, that is.

I'll be getting Beyond Divinity, no doubt about it. But I'm actually not too keen on the changes in inventory and skill system. I hope that when Divine Divinity 2 comes out, it will be closer to the original in these areas than BD is.

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Yeah, i´m also tending towards that with acquiring a new skill there should also be included one first starting skill point that goes automatically to it as well.
Otherwise it looks just to much like a missed opportunity for instant reward to the gamer (important for his motiviation, a thing that usually is valued very high by the Larians).


This and other issues raised here is why i actually prefer skill systems that operate on a kind of "XP per skill" basis (or to phrase it by a more familiar term: "learning by doing"!).
That would also prevent the "i have skill points to invest but don´t know yet on what to specialize"-problem.
You just get to raise "clubs" at first because that´s what you start out fighting with. Whenever you change your weapon, the other respective skill gets improved as long as you use it.
Of course this needs as a prerequisite that the player will have enough playing time to develop a skill as much as he aims for, i.e. the talent, resp. the opportunity to use it shouldn´t come to late in the game.
This method comes with an inherent logic that avoids to spoil immersion too much or to make char improvement too annoying for the player.
[As an enhancement you could still add a system of teachers and books for more control to the player on his char´s development, however lesser opportunities of those, in order to not loose the balancing out of sight.]


But as <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> has chosen a different path now, the best thing to do would indeed be to accompany obtaining a skill by an initial skill point as well.
Otherwise it will be harder for the player t buy the inner logic:
"Why on earth, when i learn s.th., shouldn´t i be able to apply my newly gained knowledge right away, if only on a beginner level? To get better than that, ok, i will have to practise then, no problem!"


On the issue of potentially high discrepancy between actually closely related skills (e.g. variations of one-handed fighting):
The "Gothic"-series chose the interesting approach to have Two-handed and One-handed fight (there weren´t much more fighting talents than those!) linked together in a way that let the margin never grow too big. I.e. when developing the one, the other got raised automatically as well when a certain distance in points was reached.
So e.g. at 60% One-handed you would be proficient at 30% Two-handed as well.
An object to arguments was, however, that it also cost double learning points, when two skills were raised that way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


In favor of the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> on this particular aspect, you could yet argue the following way:
What the fighting styles have in common is defined and grown already by the primary attributes, that also improve the chance to hit, evasion, damage, initiative for the whole spectrum of fighting.
The skill points are rather to be considered the pure specialization part of your abilities in that area.
And then, pure One-handed fight and taking a shield in addition is perhaps more different than one might think.
It comes with quite a different set of movements and coordination!


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Well I am going to create a mage/survivor and a warrior/defensive mage party. So any skill I come across will be nice to add. And you can always choose not to buy the skill. I like the skill system


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Sorry Morbo, but you seem to have missed the point.

It´s not about whether i want to buy that skill or not (i.e. skill costs).
Take as premise a.) of course i want that particular skill/spell and b.) yes, have enough gold and don´t mind paying that given price.

But then when i´m at that point as a player and with my char, it simply doesn´t make much sense to (some of) us that
c.) A person/book teaches me s.th. but afterwards i cannot make use of it right away - first have to wait further more for a new skill point to invest that on top of it all. - Why, please? Why this additional waiting period?

Or

d.) You weren´t taught anything in the first place. Giving the person/finding the book just let you know "Hey, and btw: Did you know there exists a skill named [...] - great, isn´t it?"
That´s fine - but why, if it didn´t pass me any real knowledge about how the skill works/what the techniques are for using it, should i be suddenly able to level it up and use it as soon as i invest a skill point?
That simply doesn´t make up much for an `inner logic´ but rather appears as "because the developers of this computer game said so" - which naturally isn´t a good thing for an (C)RPG.
And such has actually always been the likes of what Larian aimed for to eliminate ever since <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> was still their `Project X´.


If you in particular are just fine with the way it is now, that´s ok, of course, noprob. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
And yes, maybe you´re right in another sense, that we all could get used to it, if it works out in the game, with the balancing, and that we´ll still be able to build (the two) chars we want to.
However the people coming from the "skill points already too sparse" angle, have their doubts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />


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I see you problems and I must sat some of them are valid. But I am shure that they'll have a well balanced game in the end. I like the teachers instead of the skills that magicly appear when you level up to a certain level. I would lik to see the return of skill books that give a skill point to a certain skill like in <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />. I don't like the skill by exp (how more you use it the better you get).

But I saw a (modded) screenshot with a hero of level 72 thats 96 skill points to distrubuate and then 96 points for you DK counterpart.


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i dont think our characters will ever be able to become lvl 73 though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


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c.) A person/book teaches me s.th. but afterwards i cannot make use of it right away - first have to wait further more for a new skill point to invest that on top of it all. - Why, please? Why this additional waiting period?

I think you would be by far too powerfull. They wanted a big amount of skills to give you a choice. You would be too powerfull if you had all the skills. Now you have to choose what type of player you want to be.
I think your idea would only work if they would greatly reduce the amount of skills that you could learn and spread them over the four acts. So you can only learn a couple of skills per act, otherwise you would be overpowered.

Also you don't have to spend the skillpoints you get immediately. I think it would be even wise to keep at least one skill point. So that when you reach an area which is unbeatable, you could select the proper skill that would make life easier.


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Truth is, I was disappointed to see that you have to decide what your weapon specialty will be up front, before you even know what weapons will be available and when you might get them. Unless I want my character to be a club-user forever and ever, that is.

I don't quite understand this. How is that any different to Diablo 2 or Divine Divinity? All the options are available from the beginning before you've seen the array of weapons available. All you can do is make a desicion at the start of the game, or wait until you've had a play with the weapons and then decide.

And the same with spells. It's all experimentation. Of course you won't know what's useful until you try it.

I understand perfection. I'll be playing like that too. I'll look at the skill trees and decide from day one what each character is going to develop into. I'll make uneducated decisions because I won't be educated until I finish the game.

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you don't actually. you just decide magic, weapons, hiding. its a preference. not a speciltay. and you can use anything you want to, and not get a reduction!



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To put things in perceptive,

1) In DD, the max skill level you can reach, without item bonuses, is 5.
2) In DD, there are items which gives bonuses to skills
3) In DD, there are skill-books which increases level of skills

If BD has those, then I think the lack of skill points isn't be too big. And, maybe there are

4) Quests which award free skill-points

and remembering that

5) Every 5th level gives you 2 skill points per character, which means 4 throughout.

But all that said, I agree - the shield skill tree is not a very good idea. Rather, the shield skill tree shall protects against the attack type instead of enhancing the attack type. This means you will lose all effectiveness with the weapon or you gain half, or even better, put that percentage as a skill. So the shield skill tree looks like this:

+ protection vs. piercing
+ protection vs. slashing
+ protection vs. crushing
+ protection vs. bone etc. etc. etc.
weapon skill percentage (maybe initial at 20%, +5% per level)


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