Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General Please post impressions.

Beyond Divinity is definitely a big step backwards from Divinity. The skill/spell system is utter crap. The whole first Act and maybe second is totally linear. In Divinity, it was pretty much wide open from the start. I didn't play Divinity when it was released, but like a year or two later. BD has WAY more bugs than I ever met in Divinity. Overall I'm super disappointed at this time. Pretty much decided to quit playing until a patch or two. How can you leave so many bugs in a game when you didn't even have to write an engine?

IIRC the non-linearity was criticized by some gamers in Div...
Skill/spell system in BD is more complicated - correct - but allows a wider variety - and the ability of a gamer to choose/decide instead of powering himself up with all sorts of skills.

As you played Div pretty late => a lot of bugs were already erased/fixed.
BD is very complex - so not all bugs are naturally fixed in 3-4 patches - specially not the random generated BF.

Did you know how many hotfixes patches Div had until it became what it is now? Guess not - because the EV was 1.029 from the start.

Do you know how many bugs were fixed from the German version 1.00 until now? Guess, not really, hm? Your English version is already 1.2 without the last patch..

So, please, don't compare apples and pears. I understand, you like Div - me, too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - but I don't think the skill/spell system in BD is crap => just involves a bit more thinking/deciding - and giving it a chance to get accustomed to. I don't think it's lame to unlearn a skill if I don't like it. I'm glad, I can instead.
Kiya

Addendum: I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't call me a fan girl. I simply have a different approach => taking each game as unique instead of comparing. The Larians decided to take another approach instead of using the rinse-and-repeat one many companies prefer. I think, I would've been disappointed if they had simply made another typical Div. I like to try out new stuff.

No; unlike Divinity, I don't think this game was designed to have unlimited gold. You can jump to the battlefields and trade your excess loot for charms or jewelry, to retain most of the value of your loot for future trading.

yeah! 16 more mins till installed, patch 13 percent done! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> already read manual many a time. congrats on Baby Lar, good job Raze, Barnabus, Kiya, Mythros (lucky sods) and good job Larian! (if only the new DK didnt make me want to throw up)

I can only give initial impressions since I'm just finishing Act 1, but like other posters, I have a love/hate reaction toward BD so far.


The combat seems a lot clumsier and much tougher, controlling two characters in what is essentially an action RPG ruins the flow of combat...attack, pause, potion, unpause, hit, hit, cast spell, pause, potion, unpause, attack, attack, RUN, death knight dies, GAME OVER press escape. I hope Larian doesn't incorporate this into DD2, but I wouldn't mind if they had NPC's that joined you, only computer controlled to some extent, and if they die it shouldn't be game over.

I'm a little underwhelmed by the skill system also, it's not so much complicated as convoluted. Each skill tree unfolds like a road map and there seem to be miniscule distinctions between a lot of them. I just want a fire spell, not have to decide if it's "focussed" or "instant". And if my fighter chooses "One handed, one eyed, two fisted, no shielded, slashing with a double edged dagger" skill and then finds a better weapon later that doesn't fall into this category, sure I can unlearn the skill, but that costs money, and soon we have no money, and neither do the merchants anymore. We're all poor!

Battlefields are an interesting concept, and the game is designed so you pretty much have to go there if you want to progress in the main game. But this travelling to an alternate universe kind of takes away from the immersion factor. Am I going on some kind of killing/questing vacation? How about I just set up house in the battlefield and just forget about getting out of Samuel's dungeon? I kind of like that idea..

Attributes are weird, Strength is clearly not as important as Agility, even for a burly fighter. Intelligence gives the mage more mana, but never enough to make their low level spells very effective. I'm not sure where to put level up points anymore.

I truly appreciate Larian's attempts to make BD a little different, but there is a point you cross into the "fixing what isn't broken" area.

I have broken this post up into paragraphs to facilitate quoting and flaming, you're welcome!

I am the first to quote you !
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" />

Ah, I hope I don't flame - but why shouldn't other attributes be more important than strength?
I've done martial arts myself - trained against/with men not females => they were stronger than I ever would be. I was good at dodging and finding out the weak points <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> - so, I think agility is very important, even for a melee fighter.

In BD I took up an archer the very first time (agility, survival, speed)- I really loved the sneak and attack mode. Later on I concentrated only on one spell => Shaman Magic and finished off both boss enemies in single mode (my DK was too weak in the 1st case) simply by using this spell, nothing else. I had a variety of arrows to take out enemies. DKs were my favourite food. I wish, they had put in more in the Citadel.

And I loved the fun I had with pickpocket... why buy stuff? I stole it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> - same for money.

About the BF => they were no fun for me. I'm a quest gamer, not a fighter.
I've played the game several times now (German version)- still have not tried out all skills.

About the DK => in easy areas I let him run free in aggressive mode - in areas I knew he'd be in trouble, I parked him in a safe spot and sneaked on alone. But I required a few tries/reloads etc. to get a knack out of my approach. Did I die? Yep... Did I encounter bugs? Yes. I hope, they will be fixed. Are there areas I hate? Yep. this is not new to me - had it in Div also.

I guess, it will take me a few games to find out more combos suitable for my gaming style - and maybe I can change from easy to tactical one day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> BD is training for me.
Kiya

I totally agree with you on this one. The inventory screen should have DEFINITELY been left alone for one.

I also hate that they introduced stealth into the game. When you first meet the DKs in the Citadel, you basically have no chance of killing them and have to sneak by. Even when I was sneaking, a DK would usually pop up out of nowhere and I would have to run away. The funny thing was that if I stayed in sneak mode while escaping, the DK would give up pursuit once I got a little out of his sight range. Not very committed to his job I guess. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I certainly hope there are no more sections where stealth is required. If I wanted to sneak around, I'd play Splinter Cell.

Even with the annoyances I've mentioned and the handful of bugs I've encountered, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> is still a fun and addictive game IMO. Still, it could have been better if some stuff from DD had just been left alone.

I like it, so far. I agree with those of you who think that the interface isn't quite so hot, though. I remember thinking that DD had the perfect interface, but now with the adjustments for controlling two characters, it is clumsy. Adjusting between weapons and skills sucks, for instance.

Overall, the difficulty level is good (I'm playing on tactical). The only monsters I haven't been able to whack were the ghosts on in the starting area just before the arena pit. Some other combats have been tough, but ultimately beatable using the right tactics (including the DKs mentioned in the last post). A timely visit to the battlegrounds where I went from level 5 to 8 and reconfigured some skills really helped.

About skills: The battlegrounds shouldn't be so expensive, maybe 500 instead of 5000 or so. The other teachers that are in the main quest are much cheaper and more worth it. I wish teachers and skills were more common. I can't really play as a mage yet (I'm in the level with all of the guards and DK patrols) because I haven't found anyone with other than the "focussed elemental missile" (or whatever) skill, so I'm playing him as an archer who just happens to cast a few spells. Overall skill and equipment variety (especially in the battlegrounds) should be much greater than it is.

What exactly is the difference between L1 and L2 BG? They look the same to me.

The music and voices are awesome. The music is suitably epic without getting in the way of game flow, and the voices (even the DK's) are perfect. Some of the interactions with the guards had me rolling on the floor (including the one in my sig).

I remember feeling lost and like "What the hell am I doing here?" the first couple of times I played it, but now I am settling in to the flow of the game, and I think I know what is expected of me. I think that feeling is part of any new RPG experience, BTW. Maybe some people are a little disgruntled because they didn't expect to feel that way going from DD to BD.

If you prefer action RPGs, are you playing on the easy or action difficulty settings? Except for tougher fights or to target moving enemies easier, I don't pause that frequently.




I didn't have any problem killing them with my warrior / archer combination in tactical, and did not attack in sneak mode. I brought my warrior up first, so he would be the target of the DK patrol, with my archer following behind to start attacking immediately when one appeared.

I used the same tactics, only with the DK as warrior and my char as a mage/archer. Worked great, as long as I got a little lucky and remembered to pause and use healing and mana potions in a timely fashion.

I'm playing on Action difficulty, I don't necessarily prefer Action RPG's, but if there are multiple characters to control, I think some variation of turn-based should be an option. Black Isle/Bioware games utilized pause, but the combat in those games was of course much more strategic. BD uses the same fast-paced combat style as Divinity, but now the overall power of your character is split with the Death Knight, so it seems a little clumsy.

Generally, if the enemy is at or below my level, I don't pause that often either, but sooner than later the game throws higher level enemies, and my most recent trip to the battlefield to get stronger was a bust since the BF dungeon 2 is almost completely devoid of enemies for some reason. We shout "Calling all monsters!" and "Here, skellie skellie!" to no avail. It's dark and lonely. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohh.gif" alt="" />

I think a simple thing that would improve gameplay would be if one party member could 'die' with out the game ending. Call it getting KOed. He's out of the fight until the enemies in the area are dead at which point he gets up with 1% health. It would allow some DD style gameplay again.

I am almost done in act I, tactical mode (just some clearing in BF dungeon 3 to go)

1/ It helps to focus on a few skills. I discarded repair and identify, i let NPCs handle that, and trade back the gold I paid them with junk I carry around. Used the skill points on combat related stuff instead, it helped a lot.

2/ Dolls are excellent for "disarming" traps <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

3/ No major problems in battles, I rarely need to pause with potions hotkeyed.

For all the reasons posted in this thread, and a few that aren't, I too am very disappointed in BD. Design decisions on withholding crucial information from the player, horribly cluttered inventory system, horribly confusing and limiting skill-tree system, insta-death traps even in the first levels, too little gold, too little decent loot (particularly usable weapons/armor), too many test-reload scenarios apparently built in for reasons only the designers can fathom. The exquisite DD fun factor is missing, overwhelmed by a thousand tiny frustrations that have built into one huge gameplay annoyance.

And I'm not even talking about the bugs. I'm talking about only the deliberate design decisions that make gameplay, in my opinion, irritating and unfun. For this die-hard DD fangirl, 'tis heartbreaking indeed.

I intended to buy beyond divinity, as I enjoyed divine divinity, and felt that with improvments in the right areas this could be a contender for best crpg 2004.

Out of curiosity I came on these boards to see what people thought of it, and also to see how the new features have been implemented.

It would seem that the majority of people are very disapointed with the game overall, although many obviously will persist with it having paid £30.

In particular it seems the inventory has been changed, the brilliant traits screen dispensed with, a death knight added which at times can be an inconvenience, and the battles involve lots of pausing.

On the plus side it would seem that combat has improved, in the sense that the hack and slash element has been improved somewhat, and replaced with more competative and less frequent battling.

Just wondered if the experience gained for solving quests and killing monsters is similar to that in divine divinity. In that game I found it unequal, as you could spend 2 hours completing a well thought out puzzle/quest and receive next to know experience.

Alternatively you can wander around killing things, and earn 100000 x's the amount of experinece for a difficult quest just by killing easy monsters.

Hopfully the fact that combat is now more difficult will have addressed this, but I feel it was essential that FAR MORE experience was awarded for completing quests.

Can anyone tell me if this is the case in beyond divinity?

I was seriously considering buying <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> until my friend allowed me to try it out for a day.

I made it just past the first act, deleted the game from my hard drive, and gave the cd's back to my friend.

I will not bash the game, though I will say that it is not for me.

I enjoy tactical combat (read: "combat that emphasizes tactics and grants a multitude of options to prevail") and love to be intellectually challenged by a game. Having said that, some of the design decisions of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> truely left alot to be desired from the combat. The game itself is highly level based (not unique among action RPG's) insomuch as you can devestate hoards of level 2 skeletons at level 5; however, try to fight a level 6 or 7 monster at level 5, and you will see the gameover screen VERY quickly.

Unfortunately, the skill system does not facillitate a multitude of options and ultimately pigeon-holes the player into certain skill paths. Sure, there are many options, however, you will realistically invest in a specific combat skill and pray that your enemies will lack the resistances to said skill.

The different levels of gameplay: tactical, action and hardcore are all misnomers. Tactical combat is VERY challenging and has a very very small learning curve; this game mode comes with the assumption that you will hit the magic "quickload" key multiple times as an enemy's luck can kill you instantly. Action combat is hard enough to facillitate the regular use of the pause key... making it much more like an "easier" tactical mode. Hardcore... well... if you are immensely masochistic, you would enjoy this mode.

I have played the original <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> and found the inventory system to be average/good; <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> 's inventory system is clearly a regression from <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> 's. This is all due to the previous posters' comments, so I will not reitterate them.

In closing, I feel that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> has potential, however, two things will have to occur for me to grant the game a 7/10 or an 8/10:

1) free up more skill paths in the beginning of the game, and devise a way to allow melee characters to transfer some of their damage from certain melee skills onto other melee weapons. Being pidgeon-holed into "crushing" weapons after getting an awesome axe is very frusterating; perhaps if the damage points from the "crushing" skill could transfer over to the axe albeit in a reduced ammount? It would produce a range of weapons that the melee character can use and would ammount to a greater choice. Do I go with my invested weapon or a different type of weapon with lesser damage (granted by my already invested skill points)?

2. balance the game for its difficulty. I enjoy a challenge; however, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> in its current state is more frusterating and monotonous than fun.

Actually, the skill system and the battlefield system are basically nonsensical fixes for design flaws. Unlearn is completely silly. Battlefield is just to take care of balance issues, and really makes no sense in the scope of the game. At level 30 in BD you get what...35 skill pts? I don't know the exact # but you could easily dump all of those skill pts into ONE SINGLE SKILL OR SPELL. This is a major design flaw. There are a ton of options yes, but you have to choose a very small number of them for each skill or spell to be useful after a short time. Unlearn is simply a quick fix due to the design flaw of the skill system. It makes absolutely no sense. Even with all this I'll still like the game overall of course. I just think they made some serious mistakes with the skill system, and were trying to cover it with the unlearn ability.

There is no thinking involved in the skill system. You are pretty much forced to start out with one-handed combat and choose slashing/or something. If you ever want to do anything different, you have to do the ridiculous and unlearn it so you can go another route. This is silly. You can compare enjoyment factor of games. If you can't compare games against each other, what can you do? What it boils down to is, Divine Divinity is a good bit better product than Beyond. This scares me greatly for Divinity 2.

You have hit the nail right on the head.

Another good post.