Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) Technical Problems Patch version 1.42 online

well the bottom line is that for all your moaning about it, the old games may still be irretrievable. so you may have to start a new one.

sorry, i was tired and cranky this morning and became annoyed with all the pointless bitching.

anyway, i just ran across something even more annoying, because not only did the pyramid disappear when i stumbled across it in the small mushroom forest, after patch 1.42, BUT, my summoning doll doesn't work anymore. it just crashes the game. So if i'd like to play it through it seems for the moment, while they investigate this, I'm forced to restart. oh well. no big deal. 2nd time through takes less time because you already know where everything is and having had some experience, it becomes easier, not to mention, you distribute your skill points more intelligently, knowing what to expect.

Now, i reported these things, but I can either waste time and energy ranting about it endlessly, or i can deal with it, like a mature adult, and start over, to satisfy my curiosity as to whether or not the patch fixed these old issues, and see if the (a) the pyramid will stay, (b) whether the summoning doll will work {which is the first thing that i'll find out given the order of things}. THIS seems to me to be a better use of my time and energy after reporting the bugs, rather than bitching about it pointlessly, threatening to take it back, badmouthing them as if they were thieves, etc. I'm sure they hear it enough. Furthermore, the timely fashion they released the patches is rather impressive, considering i've experienced games from similar smaller game companies that have been broken by patches released as well, and they took weeks or months to release a fix, leaving me in limbo.

now almost all software is in need of patching. i have yet to run across one that doesn't, for an upgrade or to fix a problem that was missed in QA. Further, please take into consideration Microsoft, a multibillion dollar empire who beta tests their stuff on the public. Look man, if they can't get it together when their software has problems (lest we not forget initial builds of Windows ME, XP, and several other titles), how do you expect a small company whose product line is restricted to entertainment to be able to successfully afford the prohibitive costs of manhours of QA? And then coordinating that with the developers. I'm sure they try darn hard and have caught several issues that were worse than this. Remember we aren't in their offices. We don't know what they go through to bring these things to us. BUt I can tell you this. Writing code is not easy.

You try putting yourself in their shoes. All I was saying is cut them some slack, and rather than taking such a negative bent, how about looking at it from a different angle. Be glad they fixed the problem so quickly, and that they are willing to do so. Some companies just let you hang in the wind. Especially if you cannot pay them for support. Like Microsoft for example. if you bought your OS 2nd hand, or the warranty period has expired, have fun getting technical support. And if it was pre-installed on an HP, well, don't bother calling Microsoft, you'll be wasting your time.

So.

Enjoy

Next.

Now who's the chump? .:heh:. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Here, have a beer.

Oh my god. It's just like the Patriot Act. No one can criticise. You are either with America or with the Terrorists


(heh heh, that will put the cat amongst the pigeons)

DOH!

somebody call in the GOON squad!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

hey someone tell Microsoft will you?
they need to be supporting the stuff i buy for free too.

unfortunately, in the real world, there is money to be made in technical support and help desk. as Microsoft well knows, and capitalizes on. therefore we happen to be very lucky that Larian didn't decide to start charging. They could have. however they are interested in developing a loyal fan and customer base for their product. Something Microsoft doesn't have to do because they've already flooded the world market. When Larian starts following Microsoft's footsteps, then perhaps one has more room to be upset about a few bugs, but right now, why waste your energy downing Larian, instead of just reporting and moving on. you realize all the time you spend bitching about how much they "stink" etc is time you could actually be making progress on a new game, right? either way, you aren't doing anything productive in the real world so you cannot complain about a waste of time or money here, because you either CHOOSE to start over or you CHOOSE to rant in the forum. either way, you are engaging in something completely superfluous and frivolous, which you CHOSE to do, and no one is at fault for your wasted time or money but YOU. (and the money is only wasted if you DON"T start the game over if a patch cannot be built.) So, there *smirk* how's that for *romperroom antics*

No one is making you do it. Larian is really only at fault for some less than thorough QA apparently with regards to the patch. But you CHOOSE how to react. just like you CHOOSE what to do next... which I already know you've CHOSEN to remove the game and never play it again, and give Larian the what for, right? .:heh:. predictable. anyway. next.

Does being a *hater* really solve anything? it certainly won't change what's already happened.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> [color:"green"] [/color]

actually i was cranky and tired when i wrote that. for inquiring minds that want to know, and aren't tearing larian's proverbial head off and *#$%ing down its throat, great, i'm all for it. I'm curious about the details too. I was mostly venting my frustration at those who insisted on spewing *hate* all over, blackmarking Larian as thieves and scoundrels, accusing them of being shoddy and uncaring and generally behaving in the most ridiculous and childish fashion of blaming others for the time they end up wasting on the forum, ranting because of a glitch in some software.

i've experienced game breakers before. when one puts things into perspective, and realizes just how frivolous and spurious the game actually is, and the time we CHOOSE to spend on it, one realizes what a ridiculous amount of time and energy is spent on negativity that could be re-channeled to a positive pursuit. like restarting the game if necessary... or going outside... or taking the time to formulate something more mature and less derisive that does the job of communicating more effectively than railing on the developers for a bug that resulted from an attempt at fixing other problems people were complaining about.

they could have just left well enough alone and said "tough... deal with it. we'll get around to it when we do, but they didn't."

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Ok, for anyone who's interested, here's my two cents' worth:
Before I get started, I should point out that I absolutely loved DivDiv and, although I don't like some of the changes that have been made for BeyDiv, I think this sequel is potentially a great game, too

Someone in the thread said "bugs are ok" and words to the effect of "I don't mind them". Well, sorry, but they aren't and I do. To explain them away by claiming that all software is released with bugs just shows how well many of the gaming public have been brainwashed by games companies into believing that second-rate is acceptable.
And before anyone starts ranting at me: I work in IT, developing globally-released bespoke software systems for major corporations. If I released software that had bugs that caused it to crash or display false results I would be fired. In the (unlikely) event that my client was forgiving enough to let me try to fix things BUT MY FIX MADE THINGS WORSE I'd probably never get work in the industry again. Why? BECAUSE I GET PAID TO DELIVER A PRODUCT THAT WORKS. If it doesn't work, I've not done my job properly and (frankly) deserve to be fired and should find a job doing something else. THIS IS WHY WE HAVE "TESTING" AND QA.

What has obviously happened here (as with so many other games) is that software has been released without being comprehensively tested (and remember, these aren't hardware compatability issues,(which, IMO, can be forgivable, given the near-infinite variety of PC configurations) they're coding errors). The developers who so many of you are praising for trying to fix things are actually the ones responsible for your problems in the first place - if a careless driver runs you down in the street then dials 911 / 999, do you thank him & tell everyone what a nice guy he is for not leaving you to die or do you sue his a$$ off?
What makes things worse is that having metaphorically run over us in the first place, the developers have, (via their bugged patches) reversed their car over our still-twitching bodies, and followed this up with the friendly advice to go home, restart our trip, come back, and try crossing the road again (with the latest patch) - although there's no guarantee, (although they ask us to trust that they've got their driving under control), that they won't smear us across the road yet again.

Having paid out our hard-earned cash for what was supposed to be an entertaining piece of escapism (isn't that what computer gaming is supposed to be about?), we find we've bought ourselves hours of annoyance and frustration instead. Is there any wonder that we get angry?

It's about time the gaming industry (in this case, Larian) started treating their customers with some respect instead of fobbing us off with shoddy product. It's not enough to just have a great concept, you HAVE to deliver it properly, or you might as well not bother.

Larian, clear your desk, you're fired!

Guys, calm down. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> There's nothing wrong with complaining about game defects, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying the same game. If people would stop getting polarized into camps that do nothing but moan about how horrible <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> is, and how incredibly perfect it is, we wouldn't have these fights. I know there are some trolls out there who deliberately take one or the position on developer's sites just to provoke furious responses. Let's not give 'em ammunition. Frustration *can* exist alongside appreciation. Larian has a good product that needs work. Let's enjoy what we have, and help 'em make it better.

Well, its not exactly "news" that most software is buggy. Especially gaming software. Knowing this, you still bought a game thats only been out a little over a week? And then rant about it? This isn't going to change. Deal with it or find a new entertainment source.




I seriously doubt anything you do is as complex as making a game, and if it is, why don't you make games? Also, I've known a lot of IT people, this actually lowers my respect for you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />



Hmmm...life and death versus buggy software. Not exactly an accurate analogy. People make mistakes, you included. What shows character is how you deal with those mistakes, and I for one give Larian a <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />. I play a lot of games, trust me, support like Larian's is extremely rare!



Well, as we've already established, games are usually buggy. You either play by the rules or find a new hobby.



Like I said, its not gonna change and Larian is far better than most.

You just made my day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> I look forward to "Beyond the Patriot Act" when we will be banished for complaining.... I know, I know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but I couldn't resist....

once again, i'm amused.

its all a matter of perspective. while i agree with certain points, the level of seriousness placed on this is just silly. its a *GAME*. yes i agree there is a level of quality that must be maintained. just the same, MISTAKES happen, and i have to again remind one of Microsoft, where these things do happen ALL THE TIME. what kind of experience at QA do these developers really have? shall we go ahead and EXECUTE them for making a mistake? feel fortunate that the fool that ran us over took us to the hospital. yes it was an accident that shouldn't have happened. perhaps closer attention should have been paid. but WHAT IS DONE IS DONE. after all, he could have LEFT US TO DIE IN THE STREET and hoped there were no witnesses. at least he's willing to take responsibility.

your metaphor that they backed over us is misplaced because that is an intentional act. Larian didn't INTEND for the patch to break something else. BIG difference.

we're all really just begging the question, and while i certainly agree that holding the developers responsible for breaking it in the first place is good in that one expects them to fix it, perhaps one might take the time to suggest that they not worry about rushing to find a patch because the said rush may cause another problem. Have you ever stopped to think that we are partly responsible for the problem because WE are the ones breathing down their necks about the problem in the first place and THEY are feeling a large amount of stress to get their labor of love fixed. yes. labor of love. they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't love what they did.

Oh by the way, all large corps aren't all they're cracked up to be. with many its more about politics and less about your skill or talent. well except your skill and talent at politics. which is true at least for the corporate entities i've worked at. those obviously aren't very big but are machining to be so, and the staff aren't doing it right. this isn't to say that i don't take responsibility for things that have happened to me. i do, before you go firing on me on that tangent. i'm being purely objective here. i'm simply pointing out that in certain cases, IT/QA positions like yours can and have gotten away with BSing their way past a mistake to get it corrected. I've seen it. its all about politics. hence the state of the world.

maybe Larian is trying TOO hard to please us and that is the root of the problem. if that is the case, part of me says: Larian, relax, and take the time necessary regardless of the malcontents of the world. and part of me says, people back off Larian and let them do their job. they are stressed enough already. Be willing to praise them for a job well done rather than focussing on the mistake. positive reinforcement will always work better than negative reinforcement. unfortunately as a society at large, for some reason we are always out for blood. what happened to compassion, forgiveness and love one another?

oh... wait... did i just open up another can of pandora's worms? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

MWUHAHAHAHA begone thou foul complainer.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

hey i've done my share of complaining. i've realized there is a difference between complaining which is completely unproductive, and discussing which is productive. and there is a BIG difference, usually obvious by the tone the person uses. i have an issue with the complaining, not the discussing and reporting of something. one CAN be upset with a problem and discuss and report it, rather than complain. discussing is positive leading to a solution, complaining is negative and accomplishes nothing. discussion usually involves the thought process: I didn't like this. What can be done better next time or What can be done to correct this? Complaining usually involves the thought process: Great, now its broken. You SUCK!

Hence.


I get tired of hearing complaining with no attempt at solution and recovery.

Oh wait, this is really all my fault because i'm even acknowledging the complaining in the first place.

.:heh:.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

So, having bought a game in good faith I should be the one to fix it when it doesn't work? Don't make me laugh!
Sure, mistakes get made, but, (in the cannibalised & updated words of Oscar Wilde) - to have one buggy software release could be described as misfortune, to have two can only be described as carelessness.

I also don't agree with the ridiculous assertion (made earlier in the thread) that the user base is somehow at fault for demanding that things get put right quickly, thereby leading to a rushed & untested fix - either the developers are competent and conscientious or they aren't. If they are, and the buggy first release was simply "misfortune," any fix would be properly tested before release, regardless of how long it took; after all, their reputation (and the trust and faith of their much-valued customers) would be on the line and a second failure would be highly embarrassing and potentially finacially ruinous. Events on <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> tend to support the view that some people at Larian are either incompetent and/or negligent or simply don't care enough about the users to make sure that they don't ruin the game for them. To be really cynical for a moment (surely not!) why should they try too hard when they've already got your money?

You (and many others here) just don't get it - you're still harping on about how everything is buggy on release & we should just accept it / live with it and let the developers sort it out. No, we shouldn't. We could and should lodge our complaints, rage, rant, moan and gripe and (where necessary) withdraw our patronage from those companies that treat us so badly until they improve their processes or go bust. The alternative simply perpetuates the current situation where many products (this one, Sacred and Temple of Elemental Evil to name just a few of the more recent ones) are released in unfinished / untested / buggy states and we have to suffer whilst the angelic, blameless, conscientious developers altruistically sort things out for us (or not, as the case may be). To claim that we should be helping them fix their mess instead of "complaining" is only really valid if you're talking about a beta release, not an allegedly finished product - these problems shouldn't arise post-beta as everything SHOULD have been tested. What you're really saying is that it's OK for developers to release a product that's not been properly tested, let the users find the bugs, THEN make the game work. Sure, I'll go for that, as long as I get the game for free AND I KNOW IN ADVANCE that it's not in a finished state.

It's also not true to say that all games are this buggy - I wonder why the Bioware forum doesn't have as many customers complaining about bugs? Could it be that they're actually testing & developing their products properly before release, because they'd rather not alienate their hard-won customer base?

As a consumer, I'll always exercise my right to complain as loudly as possible - it's an unfortunate truism that the louder you shout, the more likely it is that something will get done, and although it's too late in this case to get the game released in the state it should have been in, hopefully, next time, Larian will take a little more care over their software before release.

Of course, I don't expect you to agree - everyone has their own incompetence tolerance threshold, after all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> - but these sorts of problems will persist (from some companies) until we force them to do something about it.
I certainly won't be buying another Larian game until it's been on the shelves for a while and I've checked out all the gripes on the forum to find out how buggy it is - they've lost the respect, trust and faith that led me to buy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> on release day and will need to work damn hard to win it back.
In the meantime, there are plenty of other companies out there who don't treat their customers with contempt by serving up beta-standard software disguised as finished product.

yes, this was done purely out of contempt for the customer.

once again, tunnel vision and ego reigns supreme. read my post here for my response, as i've already addressed this. you people are so wrapped up in yourselves that you completely fail to miss the point i've been making. or maybe i've just been too verbose.

everything is NOT buggy on release, but bugs do happen in spite of someone's best efforts. someone may have been negligent but we simply don't know. so we can sit and bitch and moan, or we can be productive intelligent adults and give the developers the feedback they need so they can fix it, instead of just railing on them about it and treating them as if they did it on purpose just to screw us. people with persecution complexes really should seek professional help, because the attitude that several of you, yourself included, are displaying, is that Larian as a whole just really doesn't care, and they did it on purpose to cause us grief, as if they get off on it. Please. Grow up.

when something unexpected occurs, the developers depend on the most important part of their team, us, the customer, to help them fix it by giving them the information, since we, as a larger group of individuals than they have the resources or capability to support in house, can actually perform the near infinite number of permutations it would take to reveal many of the bugs that a small number of people with limited resources may miss because of those limitations in spite of their best effort. if someone was neglectful, shame on them, next. lets fix it. is it really necessary to continue rubbing Larian's nose in a glaring mistake and then proceed to further accuse them of fraud, larceny and gross negligence.

i fail to see where life threatening comes into this.

please educate me o wise one.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Phew! This conversation is fascinating, especially if you're a consumer advocate (such as myself). It's akin to watching a close tennis match. With that said, I think, everyman, that your statement is expecting waaaaaay too much from customers. Why should the consumer be the unwitting *beta* testers for a product we purchased at full price? LOL That doesn't make sense and frankly, to even suggest that Larian would rely on its consumer base to *unwittingly* beta test their products for 'unexpected occurrences" because it's [the permutation factor] a lot cheaper than hiring QA testers is a little absurd! I know if I were a Larian employee, I'd probably take offense to your suggestion.

However, at any rate, everyone has made their points abundantly clear. Why should Larian be held to a different standard than any other software company on the market? Q&A, QC, alpha and beta testing -- they are all part of producing a product. And most companies would NEVER rely on their customer base to provide that information for them. Imagine if car manufacturers started adopting your 'permutation' philosophy? ROFL (Some manufacturers probably do work that way, but that's a whole different discussion, isn't it!?!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Customers have a right to complain if they feel they have been sold an inferior product. Whether that product was deliberately placed on the market too early or not -- customer feedback is vital to any company's success. As much as I like Larian as a company, I am and will continue to hold them to the same high standards I hold all of the other companys I deal with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />



Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

of course it is. *sigh* reading way too much into the words i use is getting annoying. and you did contradict yourself by saying in one statement that Larian should be insulted that i even suggest that they rely on us for support. i didn't say they were relying on us as beta testers, but as a reliable source for feedback on issues that they cannot possibly duplicate because lets face it: the cost for every possible combination of computer system, hardware, operating system, is prohibitive, as is the manhours needed to test the various combinations of gameplay they have made available in the game. there are a high number of combinations possible with the skills, the characters, the items the interactions, etc. Nevermind they have other projects and cannot devote 100% of their time to this one product. Never did I say that they rely on us as a QA or beta test group. So, next.

Further, I never said that bug reporting is a bad thing. I am a customer advocate for a good product. I just fail to be constrained by blatant consumer tunnel vision. I recognize that with new ideas or projects there is bound to be some margin for error, as we do not live in a perfect world, per se. The consumer fails to understand what exactly it takes to create the end result. the average consumer simply sees the product on the shelf and says, neat I want 3 of them and they purchase it. If there is an issue, naturally, because the world is the way it is, they desire things to be hassle free because I'm sure they have enough to worry about. this is all fine and well. So they take it back or they contact the company for resolution. This is exactly what I advocate, do one or the other. DO NOT waste pointless energy (I mean if you really want to, fine, but you end up solving nothing by doing so) throwing around baseless accusations and hate. This is the thing I had a problem with and I repeatedly attempt to educate you on this fine point and clarify this with you people, and for some reason its like talking to a brick wall. You don't LISTEN. Instead you are stuck on the "I'm right and you are wrong" falacy. Which, by the way is not where I am at. Mine is one way of thinking, which in practice for myself I have learned to be particularly effective. I am simply trying to share the wealth. If the world at large chooses not to listen, I will still maintain my view and still share it. THis will not stop. I have tried the other way. I know from experience that it doesn't work and actually can work against oneself. Been there done that.

BEing proactive and providing information to the developers, which is exactly the same thing as the feedback you say they depend on can be done without shouting loudly, "you suck you f-ing thieves, you pulled a good one on me, and took my money, buyer beware etc etc etc." this solves nothing at all. If you want to think that way, fine, but you are being extremely closed minded and limited in the scope of your vision. The classic, "its not my problem, you fix it syndrome". By providing feedback without the expletives and blame-shifting, one helps the responsible party desire to shoulder the responsibility further: hey, i purchased this, and I'm a quite irate about this. Here's what happened, I need this resolved, I would appreciate a solution, etc etc.; thereby engendering a sense of community and working together to come to a common resolution. Now sometimes a solution is possible. Sometimes it is not. I know this is hard to swallow, because we live in a world of disappointment and one would like some form of escapism to work for them. But when you remember that you did choose to experience game, or whatever you choose to experience, try to remember that you have to take the bad with the good. its a part of life. Attitude is 9/10's of your reality. shifting that attitude will work wonders.

what part of this is so difficult for you people to comprehend? do you like it when someone gets upset when you make a mistake, and they choose to berate you and put you down, and behave in a generally abusive fashion, making you feel worse than ever for the mistake, no matter how small it is? Or would you prefer that they attempt to understanding why it went wrong, and offer a positive feedback and suggestion to make it better? All that the said negativity will do is create animosity and resentment, unless the recipient is broad enough in vision to think as Christ did when He was crucified: "Forgive them father, they know not what they do." Even then, such an outlook is not easy. I lived with this type of negativity growing up so i know first hand exactly how harmful it can be, but that is neither here nor there in this discussion. The point is: I have experience to back up my argument. Thus far I must point out that I'm the only person who has been able to consistently defend my position with sound logic drawn from this experience, while remaining as objective as possible.

enjoy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

by the way, why is it that any given number of individuals have to take a mistake so personally and decide that Larian or any other company is out to get them?

Personally, I don't feel that I read too much into your words. In fact, I had a bit of a struggle working through your sentence to get to the gist of the matter. However, that aside, if you perceive that I am reading too much into what you're saying, that's fine. I just happen to disagree. You stated the following:



I merely pointed out that developers should NOT rush a product out of the door with the expectation that their customer base will catch their bugs. Sure, customers are the best and largest group that will inevitably find errors in coding, but to suggest (as you clearly did) that software companies could or should even rely on its customer base for error feedback is not a sound business practice. I am not intimating nor did I in my last message that Larian even considered using its customer base in such a manner. I am simply pointing out what *I* consider a flaw in your logic. That's all.

And the fact that you feel misunderstood is a point well taken. Larian is not a company who is trying to fleece its customers. I never even suggested that possibility. However, I do know others have and you have taken offense to that claim. (Which is your prerogative). And the position you've taken is quite noble, (imho). I get the sense you are trying hard to defend a software company from having smudged reputation. That's something I understand. But I wanted to point out that Larian is quite capable of defending themselves, especially since their products are now being compared to developers like Bethesda, Interplay, Atari, etc. I say "welcome to the big leagues!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />

well, actually, i'm trying to help people to understand that its really not necessary to be negative and destroy when the alternative is so much more appealing, to be constructive and positive. Our world would be in a better state if such was a world view. sadly it is not.

In this case, I get the added benefit of defending them, given the circumstances and the fact that i have faith in the integrity of the company as a whole, given their willingness to take responsibility. if i was aware of facts that supported the supposed negative light some were casting on them, and such accusations were true, i wouldn't take that position at all. i am not the type to prove innocent one who is blatantly guilty. one thing i don't believe in is allowing those that are guilty of some wrong doing to walk away from their actions without taking responsibility for them.

of course, i also didn't imply that they were using us or expecting us to find their bugs, just that this is the way things worked out due to certain realities at the moment. which hopefully will change. also, i do agree with you about rushing the product. or not as the case may be. i imagine that is more due to pressures of the market place and fan base, if it indeed was rushed. they made a promise and attempted to stick with it because they knew the public would react a certain way if they didn't. as it was, they pushed the North American release back 2 weeks because they were revising several issues that came up with the German version, as well as re-recording the voice overs. That doesn't strike me as overly rushed, does it?

i imagine that some of the reason certain individuals misunderstood is because of their own hotheadedness, leading to a certain blinding. i've experienced that before in my own hotheadedness, hence i've learned to curb that.

i appreciate the learning opportunity this discussion has presented for myself, and i hope that i have been able to widen other individual's perspectives on certain matters. and, i shall take a moment to testify of the beauty of Christ's sacrifice and love, and the truth of His gospel: Love one another. I hope that the world can understand these teachings for the simple truths they are, rather than get all bent about the politics of religion. For I know that each faith has this same message, and all he did was demonstrate his own love for all humanity by giving and becoming the ultimate sacrifice, and submitting Himself to the will of God, whose purpose was to demonstrate such Love. Amen.

but anyway, take these things on your own choice and faith, etc. I simply share a message as a footnote to this whole debate, given some of the thoughts it generated in my mind, and do not expect anyone to think like me or change who they are or even acknowledge the last statements of the above paragraph, nor do I desire to start a discussion or argument about it. so i would appreciate it if those who feel the need to attack or *hate* because of it, don't. I will not speak further of it in this forum. if you would like to discuss something with me personally, then you can send me a message, but i won't be party to forcing forum to witness a debate that has nothing to do with the forum itself.

Enjoy. NOw lets get back to gaming!

and bug reports, of course.
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HAVING LOADED PATCH 1.42 AS RECOMMENDED, TO FIX BUGS. MY PARTICULAR PROBLEM BEING THE INABILITY TO UPDATE MY QUEST LOG, HAVING COMPLETED THE OLAF QUEST AND BEING UNABLE TO ENTER THE OTHER QUEST AREAS. I AM DISAPPOINTED THAT I NOW STILL HAVE THE PROBLEM OF NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPLETE THE QUEST AND SUDDENLY HAVE EXTRA ITEMS ADDED TO MY INVENTORY SUGGESTING THAT I HAVE COMPLETED 2 FURTHER QUESTS. LUCKILY I AM NOT AS FAR INTO THE GAME AS MANY OTHER PEOPLE EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS, BUT AM STILL UNDERSTANDABLY CHEESED OFF. I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THIS GAME HAS BEEN PLACED ONTO THE MARKET WITH SO MANY ISSUES AND THAT THE PATCH HAS CREATED MORE PROBLEMS THAN IT APPEARS TO HAVE SOLVED, AT LEAST FROM MY EXPERIENCE. DO YOU NOT HAVE A TEST PROGRAMME THAT YOU FOLLOW BEFORE GAME LAUNCHES AND PATCH RELEASES? CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN YOU WILL BE IN A POSITION TO FIX THIS?

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There is a problem with some BF quests reappearing in the log, but you should still get the experience for completing them. There are multiple BF keys which you will need to find in the main game, to access additional dungeons in the BF.

everyman - I'm sure you're a very nice person, and you're certainly an entertaining (if, IMO, misguided) debater, but you come across in your posts on this issue as arrogant and condescending.
I'm expressing my views about a game, its developers and the gaming industry in general; you're expressing yours. As I said in a previous post, "I don't expect you to agree" - I respect your opinion (and your right to hold it), even though I disagree with the position you (and others) have taken.
What I find disappointing and offensive is your description of those who disagree with you as "haters" - on such labels is bigotry founded.
Equally offensive are your comments that you are attempting to "educate" (your word, not mine) those of us who hold a different view, as if you somehow hold the key to enlightenment that we (your implied inferiors) don't . The issues we're discussing are matters of opinion, not of fact, (nor, for that matter, of religious persuasion) and as such, there is no right or wrong view.

As for me, I've also said enough on this subject - I'm off to play a (bug-free) game of NeverWinter Nights until Dungeon Siege II hits the shelves.