Larian Studios Forums General Chat Thinly veiled political statement in BD?

I normally wouldn't say anything about politics on these boards, but since the folks at Larian seem to have sneaked some political commentary into Beyond Divinity, I don't think it's inappropriate to respond in this forum. I am really enjoying this game, and I have the highest respect for the folks at Larian so please don't interpret this as an angry post. It isn't meant that way at all. I just wanted to have the opportunity to respond to what I feel was a political statement that I don't agree with.

South of the imp village in act 2, there is a dead imp lying on the ground near some mushrooms. Next to him is a book that seems to have been some sort of imp research journal. The book describes "alternative methods of identifying poisonous mushrooms", or something to that effect. The book goes on to say that the alternative methods involve "testing the mushrooms on non-imps". It seems that the unfortunate imp must have tested the mushrooms on "non-imps" and found them to be safe. He evidently then ate some and died -- because the mushrooms evidently WERE poisonous to imps.

If I'm interpreting this correctly, this looks like a veiled political statement against the use of animals in medical research. I say that because one of the most common arguments used by animal rights activists has been to claim that testing medical procedures and new medications on animals is ineffective because we frequently see different results in humans than we do in animals.

I'm certainly not opposed to veiled political statements of this type in computer games, TV shows, movies, or any other form of entertainment. However, I am disappointed to see Larian apparently advocating a distorted and misleading view of medical research.

It's clear that, when it comes to testing new medications, we only have three alternatives:

(1) Stop developing new medications. If one advocates this point of view, there isn't much more to say, except that I find it very odd to think that someone would prefer to save rats than human children.

If you do want medical progress to continue, then it's obvious that any new drug must be tested on *SOME* species first.

(2) That species could be Homo sapiens. How many people here would really give a medication to their children, knowing that it had never been tested before on *ANY* species, humans included?

(3) We could do what we do now, which is to test new medications on animals first. Many mammal species have biological systems that are remarkably similar to our own. If we've tested that new medication on various animal species first, the probability that it is harmful to humans is minimized. Doesn't this approach at least beat guesswork?

There is no way around this. Cancer, for example, kills over 500,000 Americans every year. I personally watched my mother die of cancer. She died a horrible, agonizing death over a period of two years. She literally starved to death half a mile from a grocery store, because the cancer had destroyed too much of her digestive tract for her to eat. Barring further medical progress, a shockingly high percentage of the people reading this post will get cancer at some point in their lives (roughly half, if I remember the statistics correctly).

There is a major cancer center at the medical school where I work. Take a walk through that section and see people of all ages (including many children) wasting away, most of their hair having fallen out from chemotherapy, and then tell me that it isn't worth killing some rats to help us find better ways to help such people.

The simple fact is that animal research is crucial to medical progress. Computer models, tissue cultures, and the like are important components of the scientific progress. However, they cannot begin to replace the need to test our treatments and theories in real, living organisms. Real living things are complex beyond comprehension. There is no way that a computer model or a slice of tissue in a dish could ever tell us what a drug will do in a real, living organism. We simply must try it and see.

Two years ago, my son was born. He had severe respiratory distress that resulted in a hole being ripped in his lung. Had he been born in 1960, he would most likely have died without being held by his mother even once. Thanks to decades of animal research, however, we have a healthy, happy toddler today. I don't know about you, but I'm perfectly happy with the thought that some pigs were humanely killed by the researchers that developed the procedures that saved my son's life.

Contrary to what animal rights activists will tell you, animal research in the United States is very heavily regulated and governed by committees that include both scientists, veterinarians, and laymen. Every tiny detail of the procedures a scientist uses on animals must be approved in advance by these committees. Researchers must demonstrate to these committees that their procedures are scientifically necessary, and that the animal's safety and that reasonable alternative approaches were considered. Violations of the agreed-upon protocols can easily result in a researcher's grant being terminated.

I just thought it was very funny - especially when twinned with the number of cures to things that only work on Imps lying around the place.

'Non-Imps' to me inferred Humans, Elves, and the other sentient races in the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> universe...

I certainly didn't see it as a statement on animal testing, and still don't, to be honest...

As noble and well intended your own feelings may be on any variety of subjects in real life, I think you have not interpreted this correctly. I think you have chosen a few words from a "fantasy game" and taken them on a rather bizzare tangent.

This is fantasy, not real life, and your goal as the Hero is to resolve evils that have been done in this fantasy universe. It seems that it is you who are making a political statement that is not needed in a gaming environment, and I hope this thread is removed.

Anyone can take a statement and argue that it has racial, pro/anti-war, political, economic, environmental, religious, etc. overtones. But the interpretations will differ from person to person.

My condolences for the loss of your mother, I am going through that very problem myself, and thank god you son is fine now. But seriously, this is not the place to bring our own griefs.

Good Luck to you and please try to help those poor Imps, you are their only hope <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you've gone a bit overboard on this one. "Testing the mushrooms on non-imps" strikes me as hard-nosed satire, much in keeping with Swift and other social humorists.

I can understand how many people wouldn't see it the way I did, but I really don't think I'm wrong on this. Yes, it is a fantasy game and not a real world, but it's quite common to see metaphorical political statements of this type in various forms of entertainment, particularly in science fiction and fantasy settings. The fictional worlds of sci-fi and fantasy lend themselves very nicely to metaphorical or allegorical political statements.

Maybe the reference seems obvious to me because I've been involved in this political issue for a long time, and I've seen this exact argument from animal rights activists (either explicitly or metaphorically) MANY times. In fact, my best friend is an active animal rights guy. The fact that the book makes a point of saying that the imp tested the mushrooms on "non-imp species" and then died seems to me to be a rather clear metaphorical statement. The book was also clearly describing a research project. So, what was described was a research project on non-imp species for the purpose of testing the mushrooms for use on imps. That seems close enough to real life to me to make me think it was intended to be a political statement.

Again, I want to stress that I'm not the least bit offended or angry over this. I found the dead imp and his book to be funny myself. So, while it brought a smile to my face, I also honestly believe that it was an attempt to express a political view that I strongly disagree with.

I'm certainly willing to entertain the possibility that I'm seeing something there that was never intended. I don't think that's the case, though.

No, I don't think so, Sloggalate. There are other manuscripts warning mages to try out some this/that => and it said at the end: case of animal testing.

http://www.kiya1.de/beyond/act1screens/Magtragedy.jpg

As I am an animal rights person (very highly involved) - I could have taken offense at this statement, if I had drawn a comparison between real life and a fantasy game. I didn't. Though I took care of escaped lab animals myself.
Kiya

If I may comment a bit more, Sloggalate => being involved in the grief you are now, may lead to seeing comparisons, as your emotions are touched. I understand this - and I hope, you will feel better after some time, develop protection skin again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

Added the manuscript I was talking about.

It is interesting that you don't see it from the perspective that while animal research is necessary to help to create drugs and treatments to help to combat all of the myriad major and minor illnesses which are prevalent among humans in our society today, most of the illnesses are caused by entirely preventable environmental factors, thereby making it our responsibility and our fault that so many animals have to die needlessly in research.

For instance: most lung cancers are caused by smoking. Other cancers can be triggered by excessive exposure to X-rays or other radiation, including skin cancers from overexposure to UV rays from the sun. The fact that people subsist on heavily caffeine, salt, sugar, and carbohydrate laden diets from fast foods and prepackaged grocery store items has led to astronomically high levels of high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, and high cholesterol - all of which are treated by drugs from animal research. Chemical environmental pollutants surround us every day, from the smog from our cars and factories, to chemical wastes from manufacturing processes - many of which also lead to cancer and other disabilities.

I could go on, but I've made my point. Until and unless we drastically change our living habits and environmental conditions, it is a sad fact that animal research will have to continue in a futile attempt to save ourselves from ourselves.

I think the whole testing on animals idea is that; what if we were considered animals to someone higher, alot more technological beings than us from which we could not defend our selfs or even understand. Is it then fair for them to experiment on us just because they can? Your sons life may have been saved because of testing on animals ,and that's great and am happy for you, but it still doesn't erase the fact that testing on animals is unethical no matter how controlled it is. Also, I highly doubt that Lorian was thinking of anything other than to make a joke with the dead imp ,still a good methaphore find do
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, if this thread is of general interest - and wandering off from the game Beyond Divinity, I suggest moving it into another area, hm? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

As you seem to be the matron mother of these forums, I will defer to your judgement, but I would like to point out that mine was the only post where BD was not mentioned and discussed in a general way as seems to be the subject of this forum. . .

BTW, I was not impressed with the witch Kiya in BD. I honestly hope:
a) That you are tougher and more powerful than she was;
b) that you are nicer and not as nutty; and
b) for God's sake, I hope your voice doesn't sound like hers (which I noticed was generic for all of the witches in Act III).

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

I'm as old as she is
as bitchy as she is
as bossy as she is
my voice? No clue, I turned off speech option. But I can scare kiddies/youths and even adults if I get authoritative in my library => deep and loud. (Even my boss)

I'm witch Kiya - NOT a mother, not even a dragon Mom <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" />

Blackjack - my suggestion for moving the thread was because I think it's a very important subject/topic. Just not correctly placed in this section, that's all. No attempt to silence, ok? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Sloggalate! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's a very interesting take on the Imp. I'm not up to that area myself yet (finished Act I, doing battlefields). I have no idea whether it was an intentional political statement or simply amusing irony. I think that was a very insightful interpretation of the episode!

I often look at games and movies as ideas, not statements. I was never much a fan of politics anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I like to think that anything could be possible, even if it's just in imagination.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> Oh man! Leave it to an American to take political correctness to a whole new level. Okay, I had my chuckle for the evening. Back to being serious.

I'm sorry cancer has left its indelible touch on your life to cause you so much pain. In today's world cancer touches all of our lives either directly or indirectly. It's certainly an ugly fact of life.

I doubt the folks at Larian would use their own fantasy game as a platform to make a political commentary. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion even if I cannot come to the same conclusion no matter how hard I try to put myself in your shoes.


Faralas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mage.gif" alt="" />
P.S. Kiya, you are not a 'bitch', and you're certainly not old (remember, we are the same age! LOL) And you can be my boss any old day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

Who's yer buddy? Who's yer pal? I am, aren't I? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> <------Line by Bill Murray from Saturday Night Live. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Ok lets interpret the rest of the game like this as well.

Then there is a statement in there
condoning slavery.
condoning murder
condoning drug use
about gay rights
about theft

I think some of you are missing an important point here. Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder (sounds like a good title for a game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />). When I read a book, watch a film, or play a game I'm allowed to read into anything, what ever I see. It's my experience, and if I see something, then it's mine. No-one else may agree with MY interpretation, but it's real for me. That's part of the magic of media, whether it be a book, a poem, a film, or even a fantasy RPG. If I believe something in the game is a profound metaphor, then for ME, it is. Simple as that. Once a writer finishes his book, it's no longer his. It then belongs to his readers, who may well argue for years about what something means. The authors original intent has no more weight than anyone elses. This is especially true for films. I doubt the Larians intended this incident to be anything more than a little piece of humour, but if someone playing the game sees it differently, then for them, it's a valid interpretation!!

Methinks you are overreacting somewhat. Anyways, pretty much any fiction is "political" in some sense because it depicts some perception/perspective on reality, either directly or metaphorically. In this sense "Snow White" and "Wizard of OZ" (most definitely) are just as "political". Should we ban them.

Seems to me that if we never countenanced anything "political", the only thing we would have is the kind of whitewashed "entertainment" Ray Bradbury depicted in Fahrenheit 451. Another one of those da_n political fictions.

I can't believe you missed it! Once again the perils of anonymous communication over a worldwide Internet connection rear their ugly heads.

Actually, what I was referring to with the "matron mother" remark was both your tremendous amount of time and experience in these forums (as evidenced by the large number of posts you've had), and also it was a reference to the pic of Viconia De Vir that you use under your name. Everybody knows from the BG series and NWN (and general D&D) that the most powerful, ruthless, and cunning female members of each Drow house become the heads, the leaders, the matron mothers. I thought it was very clever, myself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

Could the whole game be a thinly veiled hint that things should be solved with a sword? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kitty.gif" alt="" />

Yes, indeed ! Everything is solvable with weapons, not Diplomacy ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />


To me, Life is sacred. I cannot harm or kill any living being because I consider life as being sacred.

However, I often doubt what tests with animals might bring - remember Contergan ? It was a sleeping drug tested with mice with no harmful results. However, the results on humans were devastating ...

Testing with animals reveals to m only one point of view : Animals or even anything else is unimportant, is expendable (right word ?), but humans are superior to anything else, therefore humans are the peak of everything.
I find this point of view - being shown in tests and experiments with animals, not humans, utterly arrogant. Humans who think so are the ones who are going to drive Mother Earth into destruction, because they believe they can do whatever they want, kill anything they want, destroy anything they want. Just keep in minds the tests for atom bombs, for example. There was a french test of a bomb on an island that didn't belong to them, only incvaded once as imperialists long ago. That island is no more. Thanks to the A-Bomb. And the people had to find a new home - no, they were forced to find themselves a new home !

That isthe expression of humans thinking of themselves they can do what they want because they are the peak of the evolution. Because they have power. The Ebola Virus thinks otherwise.

There's no way I can take that view. My sister *works* on mice in a lab regarding cancer. When a mouse is... no longer of use, she has to hold its tail and pull its head until the neck breaks. And sometimes the tail rips off.

Sure, it's not pretty. But guess what, neither is cancer. My brother had kidney cancer, and barely survived with a 16 inch scar running across his abdomen. I'd sacrifice a few mice to ensure that doesn't happen again, or to anybody else.